UnitiServe V Sonore

quote:

It certainly proves to me that the Serve IMHO is overpriced

Tog - yes it's an expensive item and i'm sure you could do the same for half the price but there are a lot of people who want a product like this from Naim. It fits with the rest of the kit, delivers a high quality S/PDIF output without needing additional interfaces, offers a high quality ripping solution and doesnt need additional software to bypass audio engines etc. It's really plug and play.

I guess from your posts that you know what you are doing with a computer hence the ease for you to put together a lower cost solution that fits in with your needs.

I really don't see the point in knocking something just because you think it's expensive and doesn't do what you want it to do. For others it's just the thing they've been looking for and does exactly what they need - not all are computer / network savvy and just want a hassle free experience.

James

Strangely Tog, you do not mention the quality of replay from these things and simply baffle with acronyms, and terminology that leave these devices a mystery to me.

I don't even understand the current range of Naim products in the line once you get past the nDAC and HDX, and once you get into other things they are just as much as incomprehensible in their function.

Mind you I do use a PC for my music.

iTunes, which is free and very easy to use, and gets superb replay on Apple Lossless files ...

ATB from George

quote:

I wonder what would have happened if Naim had licensed Vortexbox.

Vortexbox didn't exist when Naim entered the server market.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:

quote:

I wonder what would have happened if Naim had licensed Vortexbox.

Vortexbox didn't exist when Naim entered the server market.

Slim Devices did exist. Still shining until now.

quote:

I wonder what would have happened if Naim had licensed Vortexbox. It certainly proves to me that the Serve IMHO is overpriced.

I'm not sure this is true - what is the support like on the Sonore and where can I demo one, get a dealer to come and set it all up. What is the build quality like ... I like the Vortexbox, but Naim is aiming at a box that anybody can use to serve their music to a Naim system: I'm not sure the Vortexbox is that.

I considered the Vortexbox solution and mailed them a question - the answer was not very clear, but what frustrated me was its tone that implied I should be searching their FAQ before asking a question - it completely deterred me from looking further.

The Chord server to go with the Chord DAC is more expensive than the Naim UnitiServe.
Meridian's wonderful looking Soolos costs even more.

I can't see any advantage of the Sonore over a similarly priced iMac.

I'm not convinced by the U/S either, but I don't think it is overpriced.
Perhaps when it supports Airplay I'll buy one.

I'm enjoying my Serve very much. It takes all guesswork and hassle away from ripping and storage, let alone the quality assurance of the rips. I'm also very confident that over time it will even get better with future updates.

"A bit of festive devilry"

No guys I'm not suggesting the Serve isn't a great product and it also looks fantastic ...

It has been 15 years since I bashed away on a terminal attached to two Sequent Mini Mainframes fiddling with Unix, Oracle, Oracle Forms (horrid) and god help us all Postgres. I coped with the help of people who lurked in the shadows of the computer labs and helped those whose brains were about to explode. For every bit of code or relational algebra I got right there were hundreds that were laughably wrong. Mostly I scratched through by sheer luck.

What I got from that period is to never assume that something is too difficult or complex without checking first. Don't define yourself by what you can't do. Often in audiophile circles the ruth is hidden by waves of linguistic gibberish and I sincerely apologise to George as I never intended to baffle with jargon (I must still have thought I was writing for the NDX threads). However, you'll never convince me that Windows makes any form of sense.

I'm just looking for answers and am as opinionated as the rest of you.

Aside from some fun, I think the point I was trying to make is that the hardware is available off the shelf from others like Sonore. It is designed to do the same sort of things but costs less because they haven't reinvented the wheel and written their own software.

You can chat directly with Jesus R at Sonore and they will build what you want - I don't have too many concerns about their after sales. That doesn't mean that I think Naim is rubbish - I've too much money invested with them already. So James there is a difference between knocking and questioning.

If you specify a high level Lynx PCI card with the Sonore I suspect the output will be pretty good, if not as good, as the Serve.

ROTF - I think the Sonore is better value and comes with storage built in. I curently have five Macs and I have come to appreciate them ever since I first played with a "fat" Macintosh in 1985. Itunes is great, free and doesn't need cluttering up with Amarra (oops that is going to upset someone)

So lighten up - read my entire original post and appreciate the "what if" suggestion for what it is, a bit of Xmas day dreaming.

Mind you ... imagine Vortexbox or Slimserver tweaked by an audiophile company like Naim.

Merry Christmas ... from the woods.

Tog

quote:

It has been 15 years since I bashed away on a terminal attached to two Sequent Mini Mainframes fiddling with Unix,

Hi Tog

I used to use a S81 with Dynix/PTX - wonderful computer - Uniplex and Informix were the software I had to come to terms with - though vi and nroff remained my favourite way to write documents.

Agree the Mac doesn't need Amarra or Pure Music - I too have used Apple computers for a while. Apple II was the first. Do you remember Lisa?

Of course the answer was easy, but missed by Audiophile companies - Windoze is not a good system for anything IMHO, OS X is good, but not perfect: Linux is Linux and belongs in a computer room. However, the ideal OS for music is staring at everybody who cares to look. It is, of course TripOS, or in its consumer guise AmigaOS.

When Mac's crashed with conflicts and Windoze with virues and trojans - my humble Amiga with its pre-emptive multi-tasking OS in 64K (not M, but K) ran faultlessly and still does. The Lorraine as it was forst called begot the Amiga and the A1200 is still doing me proud.



And there is a new one coming out next year - so they say.

ATB Rotf

quote:

it suggests to me that either Naim's margins are substantial or the cost of creating their own software was prohibitive.

Probably a little bit of both and rightly so.

Look inside of a Supercap and let us know if that one is priced to high for you.

Fortunately there is no absolute requirement to use something like this with either Naim's UPNP renderers, or the DAC.

Either you see the beauty of single-point responsibility AND can afford it, or you dont.

Same goes for any and all of Naim's gear.

You can go buy a Hicap or Supercap from someone other than Naim for a lot less money. But how many of us are into that??? Why should Servers be any different just because you have some knowledge about building one?

-Patrick

"Aside from some fun, I think the point I was trying to make is that the hardware is available off the shelf from others like Sonore. It is designed to do the same sort of things but costs less because they haven't reinvented the wheel. That doesn't mean that I think Naim is rubbish - I've too much money invested with them already. "

Still too serious Patrick - and I think you misunderstand my point but walk with me for a moment

You are still focusing on precision engineering. Naim have an enviable reputation for rock solid hardware and rightly charge a premium for it. However, when they started making streamers and servers they moved into the world of software and commodity hardware where the old certainties no longer exist.

There is a huge difference between trying to build your own HiCap and having the wherewithal to put together the parts that would make an excellent music server.

The UnitiServe is built with generic computer components not esoteric electronics.

My point is that IMHO the retail price of the UnitiServe reflects the development costs of the software rather than the cost of the hardware.

Is it value for money? Should Naim have built their own software?

Only time will tell.


Still snowing


Tog

quote:

The UnitiServe is built with generic computer components not esoteric electronics.

Can you explain what is so "esoteric" about a Hicap?

OK, if YOU were going to manufacture a UnitiServe type device with equal or better aesthetic and build quality, how much do you think you would need to sell it for in order to turn a decent enough profit to keep selling them?

Im talking about you matching Naim's anodized case, quality of components, Apple authenticated App, output components, power supplies, etc... 5 year warranty, dealer network to support (i.e. you are selling hem for 40% less than the "list" price), service department, advertising, marketing, WESBSITE WITH FORUM!!!!

Sure, you can cobble something together for your own needs for much less than a Unitiserve, as is the case with ANYTHING in life. But you will simply be some kind of hokey DIY abortion in the eyes of consumers.

Just think how many emails and phone calls you will be required to field about networks not working, drop-outs, why wont AIFF work correctly? Most likely all things that have NOTHING to do with your product but everything to do with the customer's AE.

Something tells me your price might even be higher.

Good Luck.
Patrick

"hokey DIY abortion" you do have a way with words don't you ....If not a sense of humour.

Something tells me that it would be fairly pointless to point out you are completely getting the wrong end of the stick Patrick - have a drink, sit down and relax.

Merry Christmas

Tog

Patrick's hoping Santa brings him an NDX for Xmas ...

Does anybody know if the jitter on the UnitiServe is very low. Using the optical out on a Mac Mini yields relatively high jitter compared with a Cambridge Audio universal player - whether this matters in the context of SQ I haven't a clue.

Point is if Naim has worked hard on the S/PDIF out so that yields much lower jitter than an off-the-shelf computer from Apple et al. then maybe these are the type of areas that increase cost. Similarly if work has been done to minimise vibration and noise from HDs.

The thing that concerns me about the UnitiServe is getting music on its discs - with a computer I have lots of methods, but on the UnitiServe I seem to be restricted to ripping CDs. I'm sure the UnitiServe XS will solve this though.

quote:

have a drink, sit down and relax

Oh I will have (more than) a few tonight.... and I was as relaxed as possible typing out that post from bed this morning.

Tog,

I do get your point... I am not completely missing it. I am just filling in the blanks.

For me personally $3K right now is better spent on a Hicap and more music. My PC does wonderfully via the Juli@ card.

But I am very intrigued by the Uniti Serve or the Qute as a streamer. I dont think either are overpriced for a high end Naim component.

If I wanted to get into streaming I would also want to remove the PC from the listening room and replace it with the Serve/Qute with BNC out to the NDAC.

I would not want to make some kind of converted PC dedicated to music, which is what I already have now.

-p

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
Does anybody know if the jitter on the UnitiServe is very low. Using the optical out on a Mac Mini yields relatively high jitter compared with a Cambridge Audio universal player - whether this matters in the context of SQ I haven't a clue.

Point is if Naim has worked hard on the S/PDIF out so that yields much lower jitter than an off-the-shelf computer from Apple et al. then maybe these are the type of areas that increase cost. Similarly if work has been done to minimise vibration and noise from HDs.

The thing that concerns me about the UnitiServe is getting music on its discs - with a computer I have lots of methods, but on the UnitiServe I seem to be restricted to ripping CDs. I'm sure the UnitiServe XS will solve this though.

@ROTF - The Serve will have a good quality PCI soundcard like the LYNX which is what Sonore use in their servers - a low jitter solution.

Or you can use a Halide Bridge USB convertor which does a similarly nice job with a Mac.

No huge investments.

@ Patrick - I still think you are paying through the nose for standard PC parts, dealers and bespoke software - rather than risk the "hokey" buy a ready made alternative and specify the parts - including a lovely anodised case.

Simply because I love Naim doesn't mean I have to put what little brain I do have to sleep.

Tog - doing the Hokey Kokey in the snow.

Why is there any need for a custom, dedicated piece of hardware? We are talking about utterly mickey mouse quantities of data being sent about a network. The crummiest wireless network has at least an order of magnitude more capacity than a red book cd needs. Digital data transmission is utterly reliable. Free ripping software can rip a Naim cd and get a result indiscriminable from the same cd downloaded from the Naim store. Why make things so difficult? Or expensive?

quote:

@ Patrick - I still think you are paying through the nose for standard PC parts, dealers and bespoke software - rather than risk the "hokey" buy a ready made alternative and specify the parts - including a lovely anodised case.

To each their own. Same goes for buying used through eBay rather than a dealer, getting non-Authorized service, 2nd party PSUs and snaic, burndies etc...

You get what you pay for, and I am willing to pay extra for SINGLE POINT responsibility from Naim, a nice matching case, a full factory warranty, dealer support etc...

Apparently you are not willing in this case, which is fine. I get it as I wouldn't actively pursue or pay for a Naim ripping solution. I am cool with EAC.

But the Qute @ $2000 seems a tremendous value to me despite the inclusion of "bog standard" parts.

The HDX, not so m,uch especially considering I have the Ndac.

-Patrick

@Likesmusic

Exactly ...

Tog

quote:

Why is there any need for a custom, dedicated piece of hardware? We are talking about utterly mickey mouse quantities of data being sent about a network.

Then why do most options for sending out UPNP on a Mac barely work if it is so simple?

Why is UPNP not as seamless as one might like as compared to just sending out a digital signal from a soundcard?

Blame Naim for using UPNP, but you really cant becasue if they developed something in-house it would make everything even more expensive and you would complain they didnt use something "off the shelf".

Ironically, the one aspect of the DS range from Naim that seems to create problems, UPNP, is the one thing the didnt seem to develop in house.

Why isnt EVERYONE making a audiophile grade streamers/products not blasted for what seems to the uneducated as exorbitant pricing?

How can Logitech, Linn, McIntosh, and MANY others justify their pricing to you but Naim cannot?

-Patrick

OK: Here goes (my opinion).

I am quite capable of building a Mini ITX Atom based fanless pc in a beautiful case (pretty much what a Unitiqute is) and am also capable of setting it up for very little money to rip cd's automatically with tags etc at the very highest quality (dbpoweramp). I also can configure such a unit to also plug into my TV with HDMI and use it to watch Netflix and surf the web, and probably do a whole host of other things. I can also for $10 download iPeng to my ipod touch to control the unit for playback to my Supernait just as a Naim Unitiserve customer does with nServe.

SO, why do I still think the Naim Unitiserve is a good proposition?

Because I have spent time using one and discovering what it has to offer (in somewhat reverse order of importance):

1. Beautiful construction, and a small half size case. I am actually very impressed at Naims engineering department to build a mini itx board into this size enclosure. Will look great on shelf with rest of Naim gear.

2. Opening up the unit also uncovers the amount of attention paid to the quality of the digital out. Not one but I think 3 from memory (at least 2) small dedicated circuit boards are used for the output. Why spend good money on a DAC if the digital signal you are feeding it it not as close to perfect (jitter issues) as you can afford it.

3. CD drive is a Teac unit, these are the model that dbpoweramp/ripNAS have tested to be the best available. Naim has obviously taken care here. Stock unit so should be easy to replace someday when it fails.

4. Small size, I like the idea of being able to pick up a 1TB Utilitiserve and head to a friends for the evening to listen to my library. Easy to live with.

5. Ease of setup. Plugging in the unit and getting up and going with networking, ripping and playback is as easy as it gets. This is a BIG deal for many people who are not tech happy.

6. Naim Tagging (Meta data): Here I am VERY impressed. If you are happy to just have Album, Artist and Song Title available (with little else in most cases) then other systems will suffice. For me however after using nServe and finding all the additional data available I am left feeling that my system (dbpoweramp/squeezebox) is rather lacking. For a collection of 1800 CD's this really adds up to a big value intensive for me.

The Naim tagging system is really astounding in how much information it collects. It has pulled all members of a band and the instruments played on each track, who produced, did the artwork etc etc... (wish I had one with me now to go over whole list!). Also I took some time to look in the ripped folders that were created for each CD and there was additional information that Naim (hopefully) will make available at a later date.

I was on the edge of building a unit for myself for $700 but after spending some time am thinking the extra $3000 might well be worth the investment for the long term. Much of time goes into ripping and tagging and I am not keen to spend all that time to be left lacking in all the data that will be missing (that I find of interest).

I would highly recommend spending a little time with an iPod Touch (or iphone) with nServe and a Unitiserve at a Naim dealer to get an idea of just what is on offer.

A

I think you guys keep missing the point, as seen through your rip-off-Britain blinders: the UnitiServe is a server, an engineered product designed to reliably deliver streams to multiple devices, while also functioning as a sensible digital audio source AND a ripping / storage device.

And it's easy to use, so that the nearly brain-dead among us can operate it without a thought: buy Compact Disc, stick it in slot, remove when finished-no mice to operate, no screens to view, an appliance for those who want to isolate themselves from the banalities of ripping discs.

And it ain't butt-ugly as the VortexBox or Sonore products are.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
I think you guys keep missing the point, as seen through your rip-off-Britain blinders: the UnitiServe is a server, an engineered product designed to reliably deliver streams to multiple devices, while also functioning as a sensible digital audio source AND a ripping / storage device.

And it's easy to use, so that the nearly brain-dead among us can operate it without a thought: buy Compact Disc, stick it in slot, remove when finished-no mice to operate, no screens to view, an appliance for those who want to isolate themselves from the banalities of ripping discs.

And it ain't butt-ugly as the VortexBox or Sonore products are.

David

It think Naim may have overlooked a good marketable product:

A streamer that is to be used as a high quality single device network attached mediaplayer and which doesn't need to be used in a multi-device/multi-room UPnP streaming setup. Something like the UnitiServe with added internet streaming capabilities.

What do you think?

-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

How can Logitech, Linn, McIntosh, and MANY others justify their pricing to you but Naim cannot?

-Patrick

A Logitech squeezebox can deliver a bit-perfect datastream across your network to the input of any s/pdif equipped DAC for under £100. The control software is free and needs no special or dedicated hardware.