Listening to Jazz for over 40 years

Mike, you're more than welcome, my pleasure. For sure, keep at it.

Now I understand what you meant by hanging on too long; that element is part of the trance inducement to spiritual transcendence I was referring to. Actually, there is development, but not at a typical European/Western classical music rate of evolution ... more so like watching time lapse photography of plants blooming. But he always balances things out with lots of rich development in the more traditional sense you're accustomed to.

Why can't I post to this thread ?

I suppose I'll have to let myself fall into a trance like state to really "grok" "Personal Mountains".

That will be different!

You would miss so much in Beethoven.

Well, not all of Personal Mountains is based on that steady state element, far from it ... most of it develops in the more Euro-centric traditional way, at least as far as the jazz genre. It's mostly just Oasis that unfolds in this other way.

By the way, please don't misunderstand ... to be in this sort of trance is not to miss anything, rather, to be hyper-present in each moment. No Beethoven missed.

It may be a bit like Debussy and Ravel.

Definitely some similarities in harmonic language, and probably some similarities in narrative flow, at least in the more fantasia-like works of Debussy and Ravel, although the latter's music is mostly quite rigorously constructed in classical terms. Except, obviously, for his singular Bolero, which invents its own kind of development.

Perhaps pianist Edna Stern is reflecting on something similar ?
Here:  http://www.thinqon.com/reader#...45189b28db19c3371dd-

Fred, I can see how a professional musician who performs could arrive at a trance like state where everything about the music is revealed.  I guess I have to see how close I can come to that as a listener.

I think I am close with some few works, like Beethoven's "Eroica".  It was possible because so much data is available (you know, scores and written analysis).

I will give the effort this much credit, I'm hearing more in everything I listen to.  The music has a truly independent voice that moves me, rather than the music reflecting my mood, although there is still some of that.

"Personal Mountains" is on the everyday listening lists, along with Brahms Symphony No. 1.  That is going to continue for a month or so.

Wish me luck :-)

Just finished listening to the album Personal Mountains for the first time and am going to love having this.  I like Gabarek's work here better even than on his own albums that I have and though previously unfamiliar with the rhythm section, the accompaniment seems perfect.

Oddly, this recording reminds me of one I have not heard in 15 or more years by Jarrett's frequent bandmate, the Jack DeJohnette-led Special Edition and their album "Tin Pan Alley".  The reason I find that odd is that recording is a piano-less quartet,  but to my ear explores territory very similar to Personal Mountains, and at least partly because of the similar roles/feel/explorations of Chico Freeman and Gabarek.  I am downloading this recording now and will check my memory.  And isn't one recording immediately leading to the reminded-listening of another one of the special joys of these endeavors ? I think so. 

Jeff A

edit:  go figure, I had forgotten DeJohnette also plays piano, so, although a lot of Tin Pan Alley is drums, bass and two horns, on "Pastel Rhapsody" JD plays drums and piano, I believe, though as it is a download I can't see the "credits'.   TPA is nowhere near as meditative as Personal Mountains and TPA is more melodic,  but I do hear a commonality I would not be able to articulate.

Absolutely!



I'm admittedly at a loss here because I'm not familiar with Tin Can Alley (I think that's its actual title?), but I find this comment curious because to my ears, much of Personal Mountains is far from meditative ... the very turbulent first two thirds of the title track, for instance, and much of Oasis, although that tune does get meditative at times and the last third of the title track is very meditative. But I also would be hard pressed to see how anything could be more melodic than Innocence, and most of Prism, too, and even the written melody of Oasis I find very melodic. And then there's the song-like and melodic (though funky) Late Night Willie.

Glad you're digging Personal Mountains.

Good luck!

By the way, I don't want to make too much of the trance factor, and it really only applies to passages where Jarrett repeats phrases for extended periods with subtle variations. But the listener certainly doesn't need to enter a trance in order to enjoy this music.

There are a couple moments in the title track of Personal Mountains I'd like to point out, both are in the last third of the piece, which I like to think of as the "alpenglow" section (fitting with the mountain theme). The first is a passage Keith plays from about 13:06 to 13:20, an improvised chorale of extraordinary melodicism behind Garbarek's plaintive cries, with an elegant melodic/harmonic resolution that the bassist, Palle Danielsson, joins in on.

The second moment starts right on the downbeat that occurs exactly at 13:59 ... Keith plays an 8th note pickup to that downbeat, and on that downbeat Garbarek starts a high register sotto voce flutter-tongued long note of heart rending beauty ... the coincidence of their individual gestures at that moment is one of the most goose-flesh inducing moments I've ever heard. It seems Keith reacts in the same way, because you can clearly hear him exhale sharply just after ... it's one of those spontaneous instances of pure magic. Their intertwined luminescence continues for another 20 seconds or so before dissolving toward the end of the piece, with a suspended hush in which I hear distinct echoes of some of the harmonic language of Hovhaness' Mysterious Mountain (again with the mountains!).

In fact, that whole "alpenglow" section, starting at 10:18, is just a miracle of interwoven melodic improvisation ... such poignant delicacy and deep humanity. Makes me so glad to be alive.

[QUOTE} Fred - "but I find this comment curious because to my ears, much of Personal Mountains is far from meditative" [QUOTE}

Fred

Probably from my misuse of the musical terminology.  I will be listening more to these toward the weekend.

Question for you - does dissonence preclude the use of the term melody ?  ie: can something be both dissonant and melodic at the same time ?  Tin Pan Ally has a good deal of what I would call dissonance but I never lose track of what I would call the flow of the song (melody?).

I am really not skilled in proper use of these terms so I will just do the best I can explaining what I am sensing and will continue to peruse your posts with interest - I agree with Mike, your explanations are invaluable.

Thanks,

Jeff A

Jeff,

Melody and dissonance are different things that frequently co-exist, that is, a melody can contain dissonance.

Thank you, Mike

[QUOTE Tin Can Alley (I think that's its actual title?), [QUOTE]

yes, Tin Can Alley, is correct, sorry for my repeated errors.

Fred,

Maybe one of problems I have with PM is Garabek - I find his tone very thin and irritating -  he gives me the pips

Someone mentioned Jack DeJohnette - you mus know  "Oneness", a truly tranced out and superb album, especially for late night listening.  One of my faves.

quote:

I find [Garbarek's] tone very thin and irritating

---

I can understand how someone would find Garbarek's tone irritating, although I don't. But "thin"? Maybe you intend some other meaning, but I find his tone extremely fat ... in fact, his soprano sax tone is so fat it often sounds like a tenor sax.

Fred.

I think Garbarek is a bit like Marmite, you either like him or hate him.  My wife cannot stand him, I think he is great.

I have seen him several times now, and on one occasion I took my son, who was about 12 at the time and playing clarinet, because my wife refused to go.  My son got it straight away and was in rapture watching and listening.  

The next time I went to see him, my son had dropped clarinet and moved onto guitar and could not be persuaded to go, so my wife went instead, grudgingly.  Fair play to her, she really enjoyed the concert, as there is something magical about a live performance that would infect anyone with a soul.  Having said that she is still not keen to listen to him on the stereo, so it remains a solo pleasure at home.

BTW I was listening to your discs on my new rig the other day, and they sounded even better.  When is your next one coming out?

Regards

Nic

Thanks so much, Nic ... you've been such a steadfast fan and I appreciate it. As I've said before, Since Forever never sounded as great as it did on Ken Christianson's home system ... mind blowing sound quality!

And thanks for asking about a new album. I know this is my standard reply, but it really does all depend on Naim ... if they want another one, I'm more than happy to do it. And the single most important factor in their decision is audience interest. So I urge you to contact Naim directly and ask them.

All best,
Fred

It takes two notes to make a dissonance, and every melody has at least two notes!  Melody contains the framework within which harmony unfolds, and can clearly indicate dissonance.  Passing tones and trills are two obvious examples of dissonance in melody, and you don't have to look far to find them.

Sorry to be obstinate, Mike, but the two notes have to be simultaneous, not consecutive. No matter which note follows another, a single melody note can't dictate harmony ... it may suggest harmony if overtly diatonic, but other wise all bets are off. No matter the sequence of single pitches, they always have the potential to be harmonized with consonance, or dissonance.

But actual dissonance can only occur when two or more pitches are sounded simultaneously. You can trust me on this.

I agree with everything Fred is saying here.  We have to be careful in distinguishing between melody and harmony - two entirely different aspects each with their own purpose.  If you think of a musical score with all the notes written down on the staves, the harmony is what is happening if you look at what is evolving vertically between the notes and occurring at any moment in time (a snapshot of a chord, say).  Melody on the other hand is what is happening horizontally as you progress through the score (beginning to end) and only deals with a single line (like a movie of an event - if it stops it is no longer a melody).  You can have more than one melody going on at the same time.

Dissonance can be tricky though to define precisely.  It can mean many different things to different people, yet everyone may be correct about their view.  All music contains dissonance somewhere along the way; it may just be a matter of degrees between people on how they interpret that dissonance. In other words, to resolve anything you require some tension (dissonance) to be "fixed".  Depending on the style or composer, I would say you can experience a range of emotion from "pleasing" dissonance to an "ugly" dissonance along the way.  Dissonance is clearly present in both but it might be a matter of taste to each individual how far or what they accept.  I am speaking personally here, as from this I can explain why I enjoy a certain kind of music and other kinds affect me like when someone pulls their nails down the chalkboard.

I just wanted to say this as I think it is important to understand this about dissonance.  It can be a negative thing but in most cases dissonance is a pleasing or positive thing.

Regards,
Doug

I dug out my Hindemith's "The Craft of Musical Composition".  He specifically discusses the dissonance of minor 2nds and major 7ths in the diatonic scale.  In the melodic sense, he classifies them as dissonant based on relationships in the overtone series.  Leading tones are melodic devices.

This is something both my wife and I can hear.

Mike, we all can agree that a minor 2nd or major 7th are intrinsically dissonant when played together.

Are you suggesting that a minor 2nd or major 7th constitutes a melody as well?