Listening to Jazz for over 40 years

I'm saying that melodies can contain the minor 2nd and the major 7th, and that when they do they can carry dissonance melodically.

This melodic dissonance has a different sound than harmonic dissonance, but moves the melody forward with greater force than consonant intervals.

Last night, we listened to "Personal Mountains" for the fifth time.  My wife refuses to listen to it again.  The sax drives her crazy.  For myself, the honking and squealing are not attractive.

So ends my attempts to revitalize my interest in jazz.  Studies in classical music have been infinitely more satisfying.  It's not my cup of tea.  What's gone is gone, and what's done is done.

I can see jazz is moving forward, but for me it is a fruitless effort.

No more posts on jazz.

"...but moves the melody forward with greater force than consonant intervals."

Well Mike, this is only true if you enjoy melodies that are loaded with progressions of minor 2nds or major 7ths?

I happen to enjoy the "harmonic dissonance" of a minor or even a major 2nd etc.  Bach used this quite effectively and often in his counterpoint.  The crushing of notes that sound a little strange, out of place or ugly even.  He never wanted to stay there though but only give you something before we come to the place of peace and resolve and where he wants to take us.  I can't comment on Hindemith's goals in music.  In my opinion though I would wonder if you could ever find a "melody" line in Bach that contains a minor 2nd?  In a harmonic context, yes you can easy find this.

Bach had taste though and knew by his very nature what was acceptable and what wasn't.  Opinions vary and that is OK though.

Regards,
Doug

Florestan, my whole point is that dissonance is present in melody.  It's there without a second voice.

Mike, I have to admit that I am having trouble with this concept.

Can you give me an example of a dissonant melody?  This might help clarify the idea for me.

Thanks,
Doug

"I Ca't Get Started"

The fourth note is a major 7th that demands a resolution.

No second voice required.

You hear the same sort of tension and release whenever the melody changes key.  No second voice is required to hear a change in key that takes place in the melody.

Mike, I'm not even gonna get into the egregiously undiscerning and reductive description of Garbarek's playing as "honking and squealing," but these closing-the-door, taking-my-ball-and-going-home pronouncements, of which there have been more than a few, seriously bother me.

Fred, you ignored the only thing I wrote that mattered - the fourth note of "I Can't get started" is a melodic dissonance.

Not taking my ball and going home.  I've been down the aisles, filled my cart, and am checking out is closer to the truth.

At any rate, its been fun, and I listen to more than I used to.

In the end, melody completely determines what is possible in the harmony, or at least that is so for the music I seek out these days.  There is plenty of it to be found.

Music is a form of expression/communication - sometimes it can sound nice, others not. I fully understand that some people don't like music when it starts to sound difficult, but at the end of the day that says more about listeners than the music and its legitimacy.

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Oh here we go again the snobby response. 

"If you don't like this music, the inference is you are simple or not intelligent enough to "understand"it." 

A justification for listening to music that sounds like a load of steel being dropped on the ground.,or a squeaking piece of brass, but of course this is "serious" music, not that rubbish played by groups or heaven forfend any other sort of popular music.

You like or you don't in the end of the day, there is no need to denigrate those who don't hear anything worthwhile in those pieces.

Interesting spin but not what I inferred at all. At the end of the day we all have our own tastes and tastes change over time, according to mood etc. But the music is the same as it was. Just because somebody doesn't appreciate something doesn't mean it is no good.

What snobby response?

No one really likes all music.

It's live music tonight, here's a local review of the band :

It's a tight squeeze on Tuesday nights when the Uptown Jazz Orchestra takes the stage at Snug Harbor but director/co-founder Delfeayo Marsalis doesn't mind.    "Whatever you have to do," the trombonist says philosophically. After a consideration, he adds.  "Squished up is actually better because you can hear what guys are playing. A lot of time if you're in a situation when you're spread apart you don't really feel the vibration of the music that well."   The trombonist, who recently received an honorary doctorate from New England College in New Hampshire, says he and his father, pianist Ellis Marsalis, had for years been talking about starting an orchestra. The two put the ensemble together last Dec_ember to perform Duke Ellington's acclaimed "Nut_crac_ker Suite" in coordination with the Lula Elzy Dance Com_pany at Loyola Univer_sity. In keeping with both father and son's goals of educational outreach, the Uptown Jazz Orchestra then headed across the Mississippi to perform at Algiers'  Behrman Charter School and later at Lusher Charter School.   Hearing a big band offered a brand new experience for most of the students at these schools and there are plans to bring the orchestra to other schools come fall. On the flip side, playing in a jazz ensemble rather than a combo is also a unique opportunity for many of the members of the UJO.    "Many of the great jazz artists come up playing in big bands but that changed in the 1960s," Delfeayo explains. "Every music experience is good and a big band experience is unique because it's not readily accessible here even for the musicians that are in it," Ellis offers.   On a typical night, the Uptown Jazz Orchestra's repertoire remains filled with tunes from the songbooks of masters like Ellington, Count Basie and Charlie Parker plus some New Orleans classics like "Second Line" mixed in. Delfeayo stresses the importance of having his father, who started as the regular pianist but now sits in for several numbers, onboard for the project.    "He plays in the manner that is indicative of the music we're playing," Delfeayo explains. "The music we're performing was composed during the time when he was coming up; when he was learning to play. Just hearing him and the way he structures a song - his improvisations are perfectly sculpted  - and the way he states the melody and swing and groove. The older musicians they have the experience; musicians have the relaxation. That's what they bring to the table. The younger, they bring the energy and enthusiasm. You want to combine all of that."   While Delfeayo's choice of including Ellington songs is pretty much a given, the abundance of Basie is a bit of a surprise.    "Count Basie and Duke Ellington and all of their arrangers and the individuals who wrote music for those bands really understood how to compose music. They have an emotional connection to humanity. I chose Basie primarily because of the swing element," Delfeayo offers. "That's the element that's lacking in much of the modern music. The dance element in the music, I think, has really been lost. That's another reason we're playing the Basie music because it was inspired by dance."   The Uptown Jazz Orchestra's first club dates, which took place at Sweet Lorraine's, were advertised as "dinner and dancing." And yes, folks did get up and dance. Delfeayo hopes to return to the St. Claude Avenue club for more of the same particularly during periods when there are special events in town. He also looks to tap into this city's swing dance community.   When the orchestra was first established, most of the musicians were New Orleans natives, including well-known players such as baritone saxophonist Roger Lewis,  trombonist Dwayne Paulin and trumpeter Jamil Shariff. Naturally, other commitments often call them away but they return when they can. Now, the ranks include a mix of recognizable faces like trombonist Craig Kline and pianist/UNO professor Victor Atkins with up-and-comers and new faces on the scene. It's a pleasure to see what each brings to the bandstand as when trumpeter Ashlin Parker and Jamel Williams go up against each other or when saxophonist Chris Royal or fellow saxman Allen Dejan takes off blowing.    "If you're soloing in a big band it's different than soloing in an ensemble," Delfeayo says. "It's very effective when you have that many musicians working at the same time. You don't have many opportunities to play with ensembles of that size."   Even Ellis says that he didn't really have the chance to play with a big band for any appreciable amount of time. "They didn't have any big bands. There were some bands in the early years but I couldn't play yet," he explains, mentioning ensembles like Herbert Leary's Orchestra.   Always the educator, Ellis says he's glad to be participating in a project that is beyond "one night in a club" and looks forward to more activities in the schools. "I think it's a pretty good start but it will take some time and support," he says.    "It's a labor of love, so there's always that difficulty," Delfeayo agrees. "I think it will have a positive effect on students." Double the Pleasure   Now here is a double bill with some teeth. The Young Leadership Council presents the always exciting Troy "Trombone Shorty" Andrews as well as one of this city's finest vocalists, John Boutte. They team with vocalist/guita_rist Paul Sanchez at this week's Wednesday at the Square concert. Boutte and San_chez kick off at 5 p.m. followed by Shorty for an evening that's New Orleans all the way. And, it's all free. This article was originally published in the June 1, 2009 print edition of The Louisiana Weekly newspaper

Two things to consider here ... one is that the perception of dissonance has changed through the centuries. It's true that while the major 7th (the fourth note of I Can't Get Started as cited above) was once considered a dissonant note many centuries ago, these days (and, actually, for well over 100 years), a major 7th chord (C-E-G-B, for instance, in the key of C) is considered to be quite a pretty and consonant sound.

The other thing, is that even though in strictly theoretical terms the major 7th is considered to be a dissonant note, it is considered so by its inherently implied juxtaposition to the major triad based on the root (C), whether that triad is sounded in conjunction with the major 7th or not. Make no mistake, though, that B (the major 7th in the key of C) can easily be rendered consonant by its function as the major 3rd of the V chord (G chord) in the key of C. So a free floating melody note cannot be considered dissonant in and of itself without some kind of sounded, or at least strongly implied, harmonic context.

Mike, is this article  just for general interest, or a proxy statement?

The article was just for general interest.

In "I can't get started", the 7th creates a tension that needs to be released.  It is a dissonance.

I'm not going to ignore what I hear to conform with current music theory practice.  Forty years ago when I took theory, it was considered a dissonance.  I know what a secondary dominant is.

No wonder jazz is dying on the vine.  Jazz musicians have reasoned their way right out of a job.
They have managed to take one of the most popular musics of all time and turned it into a fringe activity.  Not that classical music has done any better.

Say WHAT?! What the hell is that supposed to mean? You've got some 'splaining to do.

In early jazz, the players were acutely aware of the harmonic tendencies latent in melody, and exploited it to no end.  This is not unlike classical music, such as Beethoven, where harmonic motion takes place within a framework of thematic development.  For me, music unfolds as an exploration of themes with harmonic underpinnings.  It's the way I study music and that colors everything I hear.  I think that is OK, as music is an entertainment, and you should spend your time on music that has some correlation to your individual expectations.

These days, 7 chords are so abundant in jazz, that they have lost their "punch".  They are so abundant that they have no "punch". It's all very bland.

Hindemith said that 2nds and 7ths were the prime movers in melody, having little harmonic impact (in his "Craft of Musical Composition"), and I think I understand what he was getting at.

Albums like "Gnu High" and "Personal Mountains" turn that musical logic on it's head.  In a quest to assimilate musical trends from every corner of the world, musicians like Jarrett have created works that are musically bland and devoid of any real meaning.

I don't say that this is anything but my opinion.  But many hours of listening have brought me to this conclusion.  For my time and the way I spend it, Haydn's London Symphonies are more worth attention than everything that's come out of jazz in the last 30 to 40 years.

I see what jazz musicians are going for these past few decades, and after spending several years trying to adopt that view point, I have to turn my back on it, because I find it profoundly lacking and fundamentally empty of real passion and emotion, which to my ears begins and ends with themes and motifs, and not with harmonic development.  For me, these tunes suck.

Music for me is historical, waiting for a future that never materialized because music became too involved in cross-cultural assimilation.  It's a poor substitute for real talent and insight, and I can live out the rest of my life without it.  How can you assimilate alien cultures when you haven't internalized your own culture.  I think people of every culture realize that type of superficial focus is fundamentally false.  It never rings true.

The primary symptom of the fatal illness that has jazz in its grip first manifest itself to my ears with the concept of fusion.  The basic idea was to borrow material wherever you found it, then incorporate it into a jazz format.  It is awful to my ears.  Since then, jazz musicians have flooded universities and produced reams of music and writings to justify it.  They don't realize that any music that requires that sort of written justification is dead on arrival.  Most people just don't get their message.  They no longer have music as a purpose, but only as context for ideas that are reductionist to a degree that will not allow self expression in any but the most introspective contexts.

If I want to get a feel for Indian music, I will seek out Indian musicians playing Indian music, and give them the benefit of my time, attention and curiosity as best I can.  I don't want some preacher trying to convert me to some third party approximation of the truth.  I have no time for that.  Kieth Jarrett's assimilation of music has taken him in directions I find fundamentally unattractive.

So shoot me :-)

Changes in the size and makeup of the JAZZ audience may bear my musings out.

Now THIS is a great thread.

I would like to introduce another musical thought.

After listening with some degree of attention for over 40 years, I have different expectations from the music I listen to, all of which has a good deal of history behind it, each representing a choice that either had satisfying results, or didn't.  That would be a well worn bias that is individual.  It's a different experience for each person that takes the time.

In that context, when listening to something new, comparison is inevitable.  It makes me yearn for a really spontaneous reaction.  ... to break free of your memory.  The last musician to do that for me was Earl Hines, about a year ago.  He's doing Ellington, and both my wife and I know those tunes well enough to sing.  Hines moves those melodies through every possible permutation right off his cuff.  I remember New Orleans musicians who played that way, my father-in-law among them, from the 50s, and I remember loving that sound.

 It hugs like the memory of a loved one. 

Taking all that into account, memory plays a decisive role in how I react to new music.

Isn't it wonderful that Earl Hines could reach out to me and draw fresh blood in my 60s.

Keith Jarrett might have reached me in my 30s,  when pretense was a fundamental part of daily life. Somehow, he seems too calculated.  I don't mean too precise.  Precision is good.  I mean too calculated. 

The essence of jazz lay with  the performer's ability to improvise.  There is no room for calculation.  Still, precision is vital.

I meant to respond earlier, but have been consumed with a writing project.

In any case, we've been round and round this carousel several times now, Mike ... you open the door and ask for recommendations in jazz, and then prematurely close the door, pronouncing "jazz has lost its way," etc. It's tiresome.

I heartily agree that the essence of jazz is improvisation, and Jarrett is one of the supreme improvisers ever to have improvised ... in fact, even compared to many of the greatest improvisers in jazz, it's Jarrett's nearly complete lack of calculation that sets him apart. Make no mistake, my intent is not to insist that you like his music, only that your analysis of his music is very faulty, and your opinion is based on that analysis.

Besides, you in fact did allow that you enjoyed Jarrett's Yesterdays right off the bat, which, as I have pointed out, was recorded only a few years ago. If you're willing to give another album a try, something much closer to Yesterdays than Personal Mountains, you might check out Jarrett's The Melody At Night, With You. This is a sublime album in every possible way, and singular in Jarrett's oeuvre ... it's all solo piano, all standards including Gershwin's I Loves You Porgy and Duke's I Got It Bad and That Ain't Good, and even über-standards (My Wild Irish Rose, Shenandoah).

I promise that it's full of melodies that you and your wife know well enough to sing, and that Jarrett moves those melodies in no fewer permutations than Hines, and then some. A deeply beautiful and profound album, which Jarrett actually recorded at home as his first recording made when his Chronic Fatigue Syndrome went into remission, at first not intended for release but as a private present to his wife.

Do give it a try, and if you don't dig it, I'll buy it back from you.

All best,
Fred

Fred,

I think I have my nose too close to the grindstone.  I'm making an effort to relax into jazz, and laying off scores and music books for some months.

Well, then The Melody At Night, With You may be just the thing!