What percentage of your music is stolen

and what about hdtracks.com? Legally speaking I'm stealing each time I'm buying something from them, because the store is open for US customers only. Or all imported CDs from amazon.com in US - I've never bothered myself to pay the applicable custom taxes, so I'm guilty ;-)

So some of us are going to audiophile hell ... wonder what that is going to be like?

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
So some of us are going to audiophile hell ... wonder what that is going to be like?

That'll be "Terry Wogan - The Floral Dance" stuck on repeat, through B&Ws.

John

Is it wrong to own 'stolen' music,
when it leads to higher legal sales?

Perhaps this link should be removed, could be illegal

Or listening to X Factor winners' Christmas singles...on a crappy ipod doc in Comet ...forever.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Mulder:
Is it wrong to own 'stolen' music,
when it leads to higher legal sales?

Perhaps this link should be removed, could be illegal

He is allowed to express an opinion - at the moment - the link is a link - in itself it doesn't break the law surely?

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
So some of us are going to audiophile hell ... wonder what that is going to be like?

Tog

sitting in front of Naim 500 series equipment without a single CD to play on it?

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
Or am I just a bit evil?

'Immoral' seems less loaded.

Call me weird, but I don't actually mind paying for music, although in the old student days, I used to copy my friends LPs onto cassette and they did the same.
At least buying the CD gives me a back-up medium, and it's physically tangible, whereas I still find buying downloads to feel somehow insecure.
I think I've got two or three dodgy downloads in my collection, all of which are recordings completely unavailable elsewhere. But if they did become available, I'd buy them without a thought.

When I sold my HDX, I was asked by the buyer if I would leave the music on the hard disk, as if it was some kind of selling point.
No chance.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
Or am I just a bit evil?

'Immoral' seems less loaded.

Immoral just because I use Linux - surely not!

Morally ambivalent ...anyone?

Tog

quote:

I have recorded it onto TDK SA 90 tape

Dear George

I'm shocked ....

I'd have used Maxell tapes

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Mulder:
Is it wrong to own 'stolen' music,
when it leads to higher legal sales?

Perhaps this link should be removed, could be illegal

There are many ways to interpret statistics and for every paper someone produces that asserts the above position there will be one that refutes it. I work in the industry and can assure you that this doesn't lead to higher legal sales.

As for the link, I have no problem with it. If it was a legitimate file (although I don't think it is, but let's assume it is for the sake of the discussion) then the legitimate owner of the recording would be paid every time it was streamed. No-one has stolen anything. Does this kind of action lead to increased revenue for the record co and artist? Yes.

Probably 99.99% legal here, but I assume I must have some stuff somewhere for which that I haven't paid. Regardless of the format I eventually use I like owning the physical stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by King Size:
There are many ways to interpret statistics and for every paper someone produces that asserts the above position there will be one that refutes it. I work in the industry and can assure you that this doesn't lead to higher legal sales.

I'll believe your word for it, but in my case I can assure I'm buying heaps more CD's. Since I started with streaming audio, I discovered a lot of new artists and often end up buying there material. I could look up the exact amounts, but I guess my spendings are at least tripled. My approach is very simple: I download stuff that could be interesting (most of it mp3, doesn't matter), when I like it (in other words, use it), I buy it. When it's untouched for a while, DEL. Besides being an audio geek aiming for quality thus wanting an original version, I also feel a strong responsibility. It would be a shame when we end up with a single top 40.... speaking about audiophile hell

quote:

As for the link, I have no problem with it. If it was a legitimate file (although I don't think it is, but let's assume it is for the sake of the discussion) then the legitimate owner of the recording would be paid every time it was streamed. No-one has stolen anything. Does this kind of action lead to increased revenue for the record co and artist? Yes.

Perhaps a provocative example, but the listening environment is rapidly changing and it probably ain't unfold yet: Easy downloads, easy streaming, formats, Apple, traditional stores, online shops, hi-res, etc etc. It seems that laws/business models are lacking pace/flexibility which (technological)developments do have. It's though matter. If you like, perhaps you could share your view.

Kind regard, Fred

ps. ie I'm interested in how private vinyl ripping will evolve. Is it legal? probably, what if a fast amount of high quality rips have been made, where the record industry doesn't offer an alternative (quantity and quality). Should the listeners who don't own a LP's/record player/ADC have to sit and wait, while they have the same album on CD on the shelve? Are they going to wait? perhaps (guerilla) vinyl rip users organise themselves to create a (donation) platform? would this 'Vinylleak' be legal?

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Mulder:
My approach is very simple: I download stuff that could be interesting (most of it mp3, doesn't matter), when I like it (in other words, use it), I buy it. When it's untouched for a while, DEL.

This is, in my view, what streaming flat-rate services such as Rhapsody, WiMP, Pandora, Spotify etc. are perfect for. They are becoming available in many countries, and are cheap convenient ways of trialing new music. I hope soon Naim will follow suit with Logitech/Sonos/etc. and integrate these servics into their streaming devices.

A more general point of view, is that I believe piracy will more or less disappear as soon as there are legal, not necessarily free, *better* options. Said services are knocking on the border of being such better options.

quote:

I hope soon Naim will follow suit with Logitech/Sonos/etc. and integrate these servics into their streaming devices.

With an iPhone and a Naim DAC you can easily do just this. I am guessing the NDX will work similarly, as will iPod Touch, iPad etc....

It is the ONLY time I consider using the USB input on the Naim DAC.

Whatever will play on the iOS device with travel unfettered to the DAC. That is much better than supporting internal "apps". Support an entire generation of products with a VERY ubiquitous method of connecting.

It will keep you happy for years to come.

$$$$$$$

-p

quote:

Originally posted by bhaagensen:
This is, in my view, what streaming flat-rate services such as Rhapsody, WiMP, Pandora, Spotify etc. are perfect for. They are becoming available in many countries, and are cheap convenient ways of trialing new music. I hope soon Naim will follow suit with Logitech/Sonos/etc. and integrate these servics into their streaming devices.
...

The problem is they have only a small catalogue of predominantly current artists and a few of the alltime greats and also a limited amount of releases. Better (often that means also somewhat older) masterings and releases cannot be found on these streaming sites.
For my taste (classical and jazz from 50's and 60's) I find something like Spotify of very limited value.

-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by Aleg:
The problem is they have only a small catalogue of predominantly current artists and a few of the alltime greats and also a limited amount of releases.

Yes, of course that's an issue - though one with a solution. But by comparison - is the "selection" in non-legal offerings better seen overall?

I would guess though, that the selection available in many of the legal services is adequate for the majority of the marked base.

In your case, would iTunes be sufficient? Some believe that iTunes will offer flat-rate subscription within forseeable future.

As far as specific masterings, I think that point is a bit moot as long as we are only regarding it as a way of trialing (at lower bitrates).

As a "hunter-gatherer" species I think it will be a while before we fully embrace a process that cuts out the gathering bit.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Mulder:
I'll believe your word for it, but in my case I can assure I'm buying heaps more CD's. Since I started with streaming audio, I discovered a lot of new artists and often end up buying there material. I could look up the exact amounts, but I guess my spendings are at least tripled. My approach is very simple: I download stuff that could be interesting (most of it mp3, doesn't matter), when I like it (in other words, use it), I buy it. When it's untouched for a while, DEL. Besides being an audio geek aiming for quality thus wanting an original version, I also feel a strong responsibility...

...the listening environment is rapidly changing and it probably ain't unfold yet: Easy downloads, easy streaming, formats, Apple, traditional stores, online shops, hi-res, etc etc. It seems that laws/business models are lacking pace/flexibility which (technological)developments do have. It's though matter. If you like, perhaps you could share your view.

Hi Fred
I'll certainly give it my best shot. Firstly i'll start by clarifying that there is a difference between streaming and downloading from somewhere.

When you stream you are effectively asking the website/service to play something back to you, but you never take possession of the file, you simply 'listen' to it (even if you add it to a playlist, you don't actually possess the song, just the 'link' to the song). There are a number of offerings out there - Spotify is the most well known and comes in both 'freemium' and subscription forms, but youtube is also a valid example. Using these services is entirely legal and the owner of the work will get paid for each time it is played. It's probably fair to say that users of these websites are searching for 'new' music rather than looking for 'free' stuff. I would also suggest that users of these services are more likely to buy something they like. Some will choose note to and that is fine too as they haven't stolen anything.

When someone downloads an actual mp3 (or similar) from a peer 2 peer service (for eg. Limewire) a number of factors come into play. Firstly, the person who makes the content available on such a service does not have peromission to do so; secondly if download it you are actually taking possession of something that you are nor entitled to and the actual owner of the work (record company/artist( is not getting paid - this is theft. I would also suggest that, people who use these sites are more than likely using them firstly because they are free, not because they are looking for new music and that from this it follows they are less likely to then buy something they like than the user in the above example.

Of course there are always exceptions to the above but that it is my simplified take on things. I would also agree with bhaagsen that services like Spotify, WiMP etc can offer a viable alternative and yes there is even talk that iTunes may look to offer a similar sort of service. The key will be discouraging people from using the illegal models while simultaneously making the legal models as appealing as possible.

As an aside to the above, my partner and her friends play 'Ipod Idols Friday" where they all send each other a song from their iPod library every Friday. Strictly speaking this is illegal and my partner sends links to the songs on youtube instead (which is legal).

Anyway, forgive me if I misunderstood the question and have covered a whole lot of uncessary ground.

i ike to buy from an independent record store when ever possible. I keep the cd as a backup. I may still have some content ripped into my system from album auditions where I did not like the album enough to buy it once I had heard it. I don't download the album cover to remind me to delete it if I do not intend to buy. This content is never more than 1% of my collection.

quote:

Originally posted by King Size:
When someone downloads an actual mp3 (or similar) from a peer 2 peer service (for eg. Limewire) a number of factors come into play. Firstly, the person who makes the content available on such a service does not have peromission to do so; secondly if download it you are actually taking possession of something that you are nor entitled to and the actual owner of the work (record company/artist( is not getting paid - this is theft.

Hi King Size,

This I understand, I know it's forbidden to download with ie torrents. But I don't feel that I'm doing anything wrong here. In my case they would miss income when I work legal. On the other side of course I also gain more musical enjoyment. As long as the overall balance is levelled (which won't the case on a day-to-day basis). And thanks for the Spotify tip (you to bhaagensen). Spotify has just been released in the Netherlands this summer, I'll look in to it (how to install it on a Logitech Squeezecenter). Even more convenient!

quote:

I would also suggest that, people who use these sites are more than likely using them firstly because they are free, not because they are looking for new music and that from this it follows they are less likely to then buy something they like than the user in the above example.

Besides a few heavy user audio geeks, it will be hard to get the cash flowing on a large scale. The new generation has grown up where a lot of things are free, legal of illegal. Perhaps the dead of local use/storage can bring some changes.

KR, Fred

Under UK copyright law your not allowed to copy your cd albums to any device. So anybody 'ripping' any CD is breaking the law, however you are unlikely to have the police knocking on your door!! I believe there is a group seeking to bring the UK copyright laws up to date to include iPods and digital devices.

quote:

Under UK copyright law your not allowed to copy your cd albums to any device. So anybody 'ripping' any CD is breaking the law

Yeah... well giving someone "the finger" is technically assault. Some laws are meant to be ignored and/or broken.

Downloading illegally is a different issue of course. But if I heard of someone getting busted for ripping their own CD for their own purposes I would probably start some kind human rights group.

-p

It is reassuring to know that we are all so virtuous.

Tog