Max'ed-out-nDAC/INT202 or Weiss DAC202

Thanks for that Gav, very interesting. Keith's 202 is coming to me very soon. Hopefully i'm next so i'm following these threads carefully.

The other thread running at the moment and this one both suggest that the 202 is closer to the CD555 in style.... a more laid back, natural sound where music flows out rather than coming out with a bang. That's not to say that the naim nDAC is "unatural" but there is no denying that it a very upfront, punchy and aggressive delivery, quite different to the voicing of the CDS3 and CD555.

This is good news for me as the nDAC wasn't my cup of tea and certainly didn't work well in my room which is large and rather 'live'. "The girl your mother wants you to marry" is promising and it shoudl in theory marry very well with the dynavector/shahinian ethos.

What's certainly true is that if people are comparing it and putting it close to a nDAC/555ps and a CD555/555PS then it's pretty amazing value at just under £4k.

I wonder how the NDX's presentation will sit amongst all this ?

Try a good linear suply on the INT and the Naim DAC combo will get better still.

You've also got a fantastic headphone amp in thw Weiss (it also likes a hi-line too).

Good write up Gavin - an interesting read.

James

Interesting indeed.

How close did you find the INT202 to be to the USB playback. I too find USB playback to be very implressive indeed now that the firmware update has resolved the USB issues.

Do you find the INT202 to be close to then nDAC USB playback or it is better?

ASenna04

My opinion at the moment is that USB and MBP/INT202 are close.

I don’t know if it’s just me though, but I find my opinion can change with time, particularly where differences are not dramatic. Initially two presentations may seem the same but slowly you tune into the differences and it becomes apparent if one is preferred.

I will compare side by side over the weekend and report back.

Gav

Get some Amarra or try a freinds PC with a wasapi interface and I think you'll get a significant improvement.

js,

Have you tried Audirvana? It's free.

Joe

Gav, do you feel DAC202 sounds smoother or more analogue than nDAC or nDAC sounds a bit brighter in comparison?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Bibb:
js,

Have you tried Audirvana? It's free.

Joe

Not yet but I'm a big fan of Amarra on MACs. We just compared windows vs Mac with Wavelab via an INT and the PC was better. Mac was last gen pro vs a more current pc hardware but my 3 year old laptop with XP is very similar to the new unit with ASIO. I think it has as much to do with audio paths architecture as anything else. I suspect that I prefer Amarra to Wavelab on the MAC.

Audirvana looks interesting. Gapless memory playback.

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Try a good linear suply on the INT and the Naim DAC combo will get better still.

Hi, this is a very interesting thread for me and closely matches my findings regarding nDac, INT202 & Amarra versus the Weiss DAC (although admittedly mine was the Weiss DAC2.)

I found the INT202, nDAC, Amarra route more engaging and less fatiguing after long listening sessions. The Weiss DAC2 for me was a little too clinical and "precision audio laboratory equipment" sounding, if that makes sense.

And I have plenty still to come as I don't yet have a PS555 for the Naim Dac...

JS, could I ask what you mean by Linear Power Supply for the INT202? Do you mean the separate 12V DC power supply that came with the INT202 or some other device?

Regards, Ian

quote:

Originally posted by js:

Audirvana looks interesting. Gapless memory playback.

Yes I think it's possibly the best so far. I prefer Pure Music (1.65a) to Amarra, but Audirvana sounds stellar here. Mind you new versions of PM and Amarra are due before the end of the year. If full remote control via iTouch/Pad is important - then PM is still the pick. But for just loading tracks/albums and playing - I think Audirvana is excellent and very small/low overhead. AyreWave is excellent too but I'm not sure that will stay 'free' and sooner or later you just want to stop and listen to some music.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by ianmacd:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Try a good linear suply on the INT and the Naim DAC combo will get better still.

Hi, this is a very interesting thread for me and closely matches my findings regarding nDac, INT202 & Amarra versus the Weiss DAC (although admittedly mine was the Weiss DAC2.)

I found the INT202, nDAC, Amarra route more engaging and less fatiguing after long listening sessions. The Weiss DAC2 for me was a little too clinical and "precision audio laboratory equipment" sounding, if that makes sense.

And I have plenty still to come as I don't yet have a PS555 for the Naim Dac...

JS, could I ask what you mean by Linear Power Supply for the INT202? Do you mean the separate 12V DC power supply that came with the INT202 or some other device?

Regards, Ian

Some other that doesn't use a switching supply. What comes with it is pretty minimal. It's not that every switching supply is bad but without some major massaging, the stock units (especially the smaller less filtered ones) can be improved on as can the powering from your PC.

quote:

Gav, do you feel DAC202 sounds smoother or more analogue than nDAC or nDAC sounds a bit brighter in comparison?

AMA,

No, I don't think the DAC202 sounds smoother or more analogue. Nor that the nDAC is just brighter. They are quite different and it's impossible for me to identify one or two simple attributes that describes the difference.

My aural 'reality' is bound to be different to yours and my system/room is sure to be different to yours.

The DAC202 seemed very detailed and controlled and sure-footed. I would not say it was particularly warm and wood-panelled. Maybe it was more tilted towards wire-meshed and airy, but in a good way (if that makes any sense!). I really liked it a lot. It convincingly evoked my perception of being out and about in the world.

The INT/nDAC/555PS' strength lies in an ability to evoke my perception of listening to live music. It gives me the same feeling that I get at a live concert, be it amplified rock or an intimate acoustic gig. There is tension and uncertainty and emotion. It creates a 3d space and picks out nuances but can shock you with explosive impact when required. It just feels like a live band is in my (small) living room and I love it.

This is probably no help at all!

Gav

Gav, thanks for the picturesque reply. I really appreciate this.
Do you feel DAC is more forward than DAC202?
Do you feel DAC202 is more spacious or better imaging?

I have a Naim DAC for my main system, and use a DAC202 for my portable one. The nDAC rules in my system (HDX &555PS with other components by Ayre) - great soundstage, nice presentation, quite revealing & very musical.

The Weiss DAC202 serves as my portable DAC (at least for now). On weekends, I'm up early and go for mornings of coffee, music & reading at my favourite coffee shop. However, I generally don't like the music they play, so I bring my own. The MBP/DAC202 combo sounds amazing. Different beast than the nDAC. The 202 is also very revealing - I'm hearing things in music I've not heard before. There seem to be layers of detail. Maybe it's because I listen with headphones when out, and to speakers at home.

So, two DACs, both different, but I like each one for different reasons. At some point I'll try the Weiss DAC in my main system, but for now I'm still hearing magic with the Naim unit.

Doc, if you do. Try to use the same i.c. if you possibly can. It wasn't until Hi-lines were used on both in JN's system that comparisons became interesting.

John used a Flashback cable at first and I have used my Chord Cobra on other occasions and neither were as good as the Naim cables.

Joe

quote:

At some point I'll try the Weiss DAC in my main system,

docmark, pls do. Your contribution can be very useful

quote:

Gav, thanks for the picturesque reply. I really appreciate this.
Do you feel DAC is more forward than DAC202?
Do you feel DAC202 is more spacious or better imaging?

AMA, I did not think the DAC202 was more spacious. The DAC202 seemed to open out behind the speakers. The nDAC does that and also protrudes out at you.

It's not fair to just single out individual aspects. It's the whole that matters. I've tried to capture my experience as best as I can. I can't really add any more. In fact, I don't feel inclined to, as I just re-read my last post and I seem to be sounding like a bit of a 'James Blunt'!

I am sure Joe Bibb is right about the hiline. However I was not inspired enough to try to get hold of the right one. I know what it brings for the nDAC. The hiline would need an even greater synergy with the DAC202 than it has with the nDAC to do it for me.

Gav.

quote:

However I was not inspired enough to try to get hold of the right one.

I started using Hiline with CD5X and it was a clear upgrade over lavender. I repeated the same tests with nDAC and the difference was even more pronounced. Now I believe HiLine is the must in Naim system.

AMA - I take it you still haven't managed to borrow a 202 yet to audition ?

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
Now I believe HiLine is the must in Naim system.

Quite possibly, what the comparison re-enforced to me was the importance of using the same for each. If you can, use the same cable and then any possible input differences are also taken out. But it's not always easy.

I understand why Gav couldn't be arsed to source cables, but the lavender v an RCA lavender would have been ideal. To me, the Chord Cobra lacks quite a bit, especially compared to the old Chrysalis which I found quite close to the Naim lavender cable.

The Flashback v Hi-line was not even close, as you would hope for the price difference.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
AMA - I take it you still haven't managed to borrow a 202 yet to audition ?

No, they don't sell in Dubai

I have one other suggestion for the nDAC.

I run my system with off a dedicated line via Nordost Odin -> Qbase -> Nordost Brahama into the nDAC (Weiss INT202/Nordost digital interconnect/Pure Music).

I found significant benefits can be had with vibration control on the nDAC. I am using AC sort cones at present and will audition the titanium versions at some point in 2011 (gees Nordost made a killing out of my hifi obsession). This is on a non naim system (Conrad Johnson/B&W)

PS I have posted before that I preferred this nDac combo to the Weiss 202, even without 555 PS. Both setups cost the same down under.

quote:

Originally posted by gav111n:

quote:

Gav, thanks for the picturesque reply. I really appreciate this.
Do you feel DAC is more forward than DAC202?
Do you feel DAC202 is more spacious or better imaging?

AMA, I did not think the DAC202 was more spacious. The DAC202 seemed to open out behind the speakers. The nDAC does that and also protrudes out at you.

It's not fair to just single out individual aspects. It's the whole that matters. I've tried to capture my experience as best as I can. I can't really add any more. In fact, I don't feel inclined to, as I just re-read my last post and I seem to be sounding like a bit of a 'James Blunt'!

I am sure Joe Bibb is right about the hiline. However I was not inspired enough to try to get hold of the right one. I know what it brings for the nDAC. The hiline would need an even greater synergy with the DAC202 than it has with the nDAC to do it for me.

Gav.

Gav, Keith said that you thought that in pretty much all hifi respects, the 202 was better but that at the end of the day you preferred the naim. Would that be fair to say or have I got my wires crossed here ?

Hi Rich,

I wouldn't go with that summary, but decide for yourself. Below I have copied and pasted my emails to Keith. The first after I had spent my first evening with the DAC202. As with anything new I was really aware of the differences to what I was used to. Particularly the mid-range and how it exposed sounds in the mid-range that I had not noticed before. I should add that my wife liked it even more than me. She found it more relaxed sounding but mainly LOVED the idea of a box count reduction.

=====

Keith,

Initial impressions:

I am comparing the DAC202 with a maxed out naim DAC (plus upgraded power lead plus 555PS plus second upgraded power lead, firing into NAC552/NAP300). I have to say the 202 is really great.

The naim setup seems to deliver more rhythmic punch, more drive, more foot-tappy, more head-noddy, more ‘grungy’ aggression.

On the other hand, the 202 definitely delivers more information. I have heard instruments/backing singers that I have not noticed before on recordings that I know very well. The sound from the 202 is really well balanced. Voices are incredible and anything metallic (cymbals, bells) are to die for. It can also smash out rock and electronic music without unwanted harshness.

This is going to be a tough one. At the moment both me and my wife are taken with the DAC202. We really like the detail and realism. We love the idea of having one small box instead of INT202/DAC/555PS. We also like the information screen, and the way you can adjust settings on the 202, and the option of using it as a pre-amp in the future.

We will evaluate a bit more and then let you know which way we want to go. Have you a date when you need the DAC202 back?

All the best,

Gav.

=====

I ran the DAC202 solidly for several days and then over a weekend went back to the nDAC. This was my second email:

=====

Keith,

I have run the DAC202 for several days now and as with my initial impressions it is really great. It's amazingly detailed and controlled. No matter how complex the music gets it renders all instruments with airy separation. I can see why people buy the DAC202.

Over the weekend I swapped back to the INT202/naim DAC/555PS and compared side by side. The decision is actually easy for me. I will be taking the INT202 and keeping the naim DAC/555PS. The naim DAC just injects the emotional/passionate content of the music straight in to me. It just makes me want to move around and the DAC202 does not give me that experience to the same extent. This is definitely no criticism of the DAC202. Perhaps I am not clever enough for it ;-)

Thanks for the opportunity to try it out. I have re-boxed the DAC202. Can you let me have the address to return it and I will sort it out. It looks like the most I can insure to is £2500? I will give you a call and arrange payment for the INT202.

All the best,

Gav.

=====

It's interesting for me to re-read my emails. The one opinion I made in my first email that I later disagreed with, was where I said that the DAC202 definitely reveals more information. I backed away from repeating that in my second email as when I switched back to the nDAC I found that what I noticed for the first time with the DAC202 is also clearly there with the nDAC but there are other things going on with the nDAC that draws my attention away, like the musicality.

Reviews, opinions, comparisons and so on are interesting but the only way you really know what someone thinks is by looking at where they spend their hard earned money. I pulled the trigger on the INT202 and previously on an nDAC and 555PS but not on the DAC202.

The DAC202 should be coming your way soon. Don't worry, I took good care of it! Be sure to post your thoughts.

Gav