New Carlton Thread

Dear Tony.

The mudguards are fine. If it goes this well with them who cares? Not me!

Very best wishes from George.

PS: The Carlton is not dead and there will be some lovely photos before the end of March! Wait and see!

PPS: Perhaps Richard can rename it the "New Carlton and Ambrosio" thread. We shall see. It would have a new lease on life in that case!

George, it's nice isn't it, using dual pivot brakes now? Is the position okay? Can you live with the stem length, height, etc? And finally, how's the saddle? That's pretty radical looking compared to your Brooks. Think you'll keep it in the long run?

Dear Hawk,

The brakes are stunning double pivots ...

One finger over the hoods can effect an emergency stop. I could get good power with a real pull on the old Gran Sports lever onto GS calipers [c. 1960s Campag brakes], but off the hood with a drop bar they were plain dangerous.

The Ambrosio dimensions from saddle to bar [on the hoods as in to the natural North Road Bar position into the corners over the brakes], and from saddle to pedals are replicated exactly from the Carlton, and the steering tube angle is the same at 74 degrees ...

No adjustment for handling is needed, and the two handle equally well. In other words, completely stable - no shimmy on the sheering, and no need to actually steer, but just imagine and lean ...

The Selle Italia saddle will not survive. I have already ordered - delivery after next pay day - a black standard Brooks "B 17" so that it will match the generally black and blue scheme on this Ambrosio. I don't fear to run in another "B 17!" They are reasonably comfortable from the start.

ATB from George

As this is a 'Carlton' thread I thought I'd post a snap of mine. Owned from new in 1988. All original apart from some new wheels, saddle, indexed gear shifters and rear derailleur. Certainly not eclipsed by its newish (2006 carbon fibre frame) brethren IMO.

When I first had the Carlton, it was the first decent cycle that I had ever owned!

It opened my eyes about the difference between a great cycle and an average one!

After a long period of rebuilding her by myself, and with immense patience, I really went from liking the old Carlton to having a real bond with her! She will never leave me till I cannot ride a bicycle any more. 

So the Ambrosio has come to what will be a very good and appreciative home! But I think the Carlton will always be my abiding favourite, to be cherished for the pleasure she has given and will continue to give me!

George, those to look superb together! 

But two Carltons look pretty special together as well!

ATB from George

Dear George,

It appears that you have the same hubs on your Carlton as I have on the Ambrosio!

And tyres on the Carbon cycle as on the Ambrosio - Vitororia.

Snap again times two!

ATB from George

You're correct George, well spotted.

This one from 2007 and prior to the changes. (cheap wheels)

Dear George,

As you sent me that very picture at the time, it makes me realise that I have had my Carlton for six years now. Actually that cannot be - it is only four years and a bit so far! That is the second longest that I ever used a cycle for! The longer time was with my Falcon of Brigg, which was a mountain bike type, but without suspension. It had a striking chromed frame that looked really nice after I had taken all the gaudy transfers off it!

As a cycle it went really well and was great fun. I rebuilt it twice, as the running gear was the lowest of the low in quality. Nice when set up, but required patience to keep it running well. I never had a bottom bracket last long in it for some reason. Probably the cycle shop was fitting really poor ones, knowing I'd be back for another!

ATB from George                            

George, sorry for polluting the Carlton thread with a DVD, but just wanted to check that you have seen my additional two Norwegian film recommendations over on the DVD thread.

Jason.

Not yet! Thanks for the notice, and I'll look into it now!

Thanks for the help, ATB from George

I have been busy removing the new freewheel [six speed - to run in with the new chain] from the new wheels carrying the Blizzards on the Carlton, and putting this onto the older wheels with the Marathons on. I shall use the Carlton for a good while yet with these winter tyres!

And get ready for some social cycling at the end of March.

I'll run in a standard steel framed black Brooks B 17 on the Carlton in preparation as well.

Then the Ambrosio will have a great and comfortable saddle from the off!

Next is to swap over the lights. Ten minutes, maximum.

ATB from George

Well I went to work today on the Carlton on its heavy Marathon tyres, and it is not eclipsed by the Ambrosio. 

Clearly the Ambrosio is the more efficient cycle. Better on hills, for example.

But the Carlton has a poise that is not matched. It handles gently in sub-par conditions and the old fashioned gear arrangement will survive the robust conditions with ease ...

For my proposed Norwegian Alpenist ride out, then no doubt the Ambrosio would be the cycle of choice  but for more sedate use and worse conditions, then the Carlton is not just the practicle machine ...

Getting back onto a Brooks B17 was a pleasure ...

ATB from George

Some observations on the Ambrosio Guido Mark II compared to my Carlton Kermesse - Carlton Professional road model geometry but in the Reynolds 301 tubing, yet still currently just less than 22 lbs or 10 kgs.

The gearing:

Gear chart using MPH @ 100 RPM - Ambrosio

For 700 X 23 / 23-622 tire 

With 10-speed 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25 Cassette

Clearly the gearing on the Ambrosio is wider in range [though better distributed within it], being about ten per cent higher on top and similarly about ten per cent lower on the the lowest, and having thirteen nicely spaced ratios.

The Ambrosio is a more compact frame that is actually my size. The Carlton is massive. Small frames are stiffer, and aluminium is stiffer than steel. The Ambrosio is a a very stiff frame that still rides with poise.

Where the Ambrosio scores significantly is on severe uphill places. There is a particularly nasty short incline I know that used to be banned for cycles [between Hylton Road and Henwick Road, behind the Worcester News printing plant], but is now widened and allowing cycles to use it. In the old days I could manage this on bottom ratio with the Carlton provided I had a run up at it. It could be done without stalling, though if it had been twice as long, I believe it would be impossible. A stall would be inevitable. 

So I tried this bank with the Ambrosio, but took a different course of action. I commenced with a standing start on bottom ratio, and remained in the saddle all the way up with a reasonable fast walking speed all the way. not a chance of a stall, and the gradient would be possible till I lost the will to live.

The Peugeot mentioned earlier in this thread was no better than the Carlton, but had a smaller front chain ring, giving 39 over 24 teeth on lowest cg. Somewhere half way between the Carlton and Ambrosio, and yet a beast to ride on that bank.

Soon I shall attempt the nastiest of all. That on is by the Crown and Anchor [Hylton Road], and comes out close to the end of Oldbury Road on Henwick. This is steeper still and much longer, and I only ever managed it once on the Carlton to my complete amazement. Tomorrow morning perhaps!

For sure the Ambrosio is better on steep banks ...

ATB from George

The good old Sheldon Brown tables!

Dear Svetty,

For the curious minded cyclist who wants to service and understand the workings of their cycle, Sheldon Brown really does explain it so that anyone handy with the basic tools required can keep a cycle on the top-line. It also helps to understand how it works so that one can use the cycle with a finesse that seems to elude many on cycles with their clanking gear changes and creaking brakes! It really makes me shudder to think of people using very crossed chain-lines on cycles and the consequent un-necessary wear on the drive train, simply for using it in a mechanically cruel way!

His commentaries are full of the common sense that avoids mythology, and the wisdom that comes from someone with a huge experience!

His writings on cycle gearing really do help one understand better what can be achieved with different selections of cassettes [or freewheels on older style cycles] in combination with the options for chain wheels on the front. 

Not everyone would want to alter what comes on a ready built up cycle, but if one is prepared to experiment, then one can really arrive at a set of gears that suits the individual cyclist, his machine, and the conditions encountered in riding the cycle for the best results. 

Over the years I experimented with many different arrangements on the Carlton. Wide spaced ratios, or compact ones. The classical limitations of the old style Campagnolo road-bike rear derailleurs, such as the largest rear cog not having more than 24 teeth or the clearance is lost and it will bind between the rear mech and the sprocket. The problem of the 144 mm BCD front chain rings which on the Record series meant that the smallest front chain wheel official released was 42 tooth, and with only 24, permissible on the freewheel, the resulting rather tall lowest gear ...  The value or otherwise of the range of gears taking in a very tall top ratio and so forth.

The Carlton is set up absolutely in the classical way with a system based on New Record and Super Record parts [interchangeable, of course] from the 1970s.

The Ambrosio has a much more modern system, which shows that even with a lower range of parts [Veloce series] the gearing represents a great advance, though not actually as light-weight as the classic old parts on the Carlton. 

It makes for a fascinating set of experiences to read round the subject and be informed of what may only be partly understood from simply riding with different arrangements.

Sheldon Brown has written very interesting and educational things on this, and just about every aspect of cycle use, maintenance, and servicing, as well as improving set-up ...

ATB from George

Slightly off-topic but whilst doing a routine service I've just found a crack half-way through both chain-stays of my winter bike

Just as well I spotted these before coming a spectacular cropper!

My fantastic dealer has been on the phone to the manufacturer who is going to replace the frame for me. RESULT!

Dear Svetty,

That does sound as if you have been lucky to catch the problem in time!

Good on the maker to supply a new frame, though. Do you mind saying who is the frame maker?

ATB from George

There is something to learn every day.

The Ergo brake-cum-gear levers from Campagnolo are a revelation.

To raise the sprocket-size one uses the paddle with one click representing one indexed ratio. You  can do three at once if the mood takes!

So far I'd shifted gingerly with one click, but one can do three in one go!

Even I'd never dare shift three gears at once with the old Super Record friction shifters. A sure recipe for loosing the chain!

A fascinating new release [in the last four weeks - after 21 years of development] is the new electronic power [EPS] shift from Campagnolo. The first reports are that one can shift the whole range in one go without loosing the chain. How things move on. The Athena [budget version of the Super Record]  EPS is over £1200!

The Super Record version is not yet priced in sterling!

But Campag have certainly revolutionized shifting with the old Ergo mechanical system, so I can only ever imagine what they have achieved with the EPS!

To rich for me though!

ATB from George 

And me George!

Update, have received replacement frame - a Kinesis. It's my winter bike so takes full mudguards. I'm in the process of building it up and hope to take it for it's maiden 90 miles on Saturday...

Dear Svetty!

Good show!

Let us know how it goes!

I have a nice weekend afoot in a week's time. Cycling will be involved unless it is pouring down!

ATB from George

Hi

brings back memories, first proper bike many years ago was a Coventry Eagle, it was heavily modded and rebuilt several times over the years that followed....

looking forward to the better weather now so can get back into the saddle and get some serious mileage in...

BR

Hi

never had one but the Claude Butler of old was highly regarded - still available in name, however maybe not quite the same...

BR

Dear Anthony [ameden],

There are several fantastic old classic [steel framed] English cycle makes, such as Houldsworth Butler, Carlton, Eagle, and even Raleigh made some pretty super cycles after they bought out Carlton and transferred their attention to making something high end in the Carlton works!

If you care to look right through this extremely long and old thread, then you will see the evolution of my Carlton from being a derelict but lovely old cycle, to now when it is a lovingly rebuilt classic with superb period running gear and modern wheels.

A work of patience and dedication in sourcing old [either mint or NOS parts from Campagnolo in the main] parts that has resulted in a very enjoyable old cycle that is still almost competitive with modern ones. But I have the Ambrosio  and that also shows that even mid-range modern Campagnolo running gear is easier to use and [apart from weight] far better in design than 1960/70/80s Super Record equipment!

But the Carlton has something that is indefinable called character, and this leads to an affection that no amount of efficiency will divert! And of course Carlton has a connection with the TdF, which makes it a pretty special thing historically compared to any other British cycle make! They don't use the second eleven for that one!

We're all mad you know!

ATB from George