New Carlton Thread
Posted by: George Fredrik on 06 December 2010
Well part of my increasingly contented life is assisted in its happiness in the process of creating a great mid-1980s cycles as it should have been fitted out had the English cycle making business not been in terminal decline apart from great almost cottage-industry scale production of bespoke cycles ...
In the summer I had rebuilt the old lady with a good selection of Campagnolo running gear. However certain parts eluded me at a reasonable price - and the price has to be reasonable.
But since my return from my Polish fortnight, I have been searching diligently for good parts to finish the job. NOS - British Standard Bottom Bracket, Headset, fine used brake levers [to compliment the fine calipers already fitted], and a mint rear derailleur - all from the Record group set between 1973 and 1985. Plus an amazing gift of later "C" Record gear levers [fitted and superb] ...
The only remaining thing to do is to build some wheels on Record hubs [already in the shed from the summer-time] with Ambrosio rims ... This will wait till New Year ...
I have ordered some Brooks bar tape to match, and Christmas week [vacation by order!] will see a significant amount of further fining down details and rebuilding.
I hope that this thread may live long enough to see some fine photos of a truly finalised set-up.
Something to gladden my heart in an innocent sort of way.
Dobranoc, all, from George
PS: The cycle is daily machine as well for fun, and it is no fair weather cycle, as a commuting machine. Really it is a biking parallel to an older Bentley [without the implied weight!] so really too nice to use that way, but a real pleasure in spite of being too nice to leave tied to a lamp post if I go into town. Fortunately only cyclists of certain [veteran] age recognise it for what it is. Otherwise it is simply old hat.
Posted on: 15 February 2011 by George Fredrik
The back wheel on the Carlton has lost a spoke, and really is not safe, so I borrowed back my Peugeot, which is a nice bike but not as nice!
The Carlton:
The Peugeot:
At last I can see the essential diferences between the two. Both are made of Renolds 501 tubing, and are both 10.1 kgs, but the Carlton is larger. The top-tubes are 21.5 and 22.5 inches, the Seat-tubes are 22 and 23.5 inches, the Head tubes are 5.75 and 6.75 inches and the length between the axles [centres] are 38.5 and 40 inches, so the Carlton is significantly larger overal! It also rides far nicer over bumps!
It is fascinating to find two rather similar cycles in many ways, riding so differently though. The Carlton can be balanced and controlled at almost half walking speed, but you would need to be very good to get similar results from the Peugeot!
The Carlton is actually geared faster 53/42 over 13/24 [six speed Defiant freewheel], while the Peugeot is 52/39 over 14/24 [also six speed Helicomatic freewheel]. It is peculiar, but the Simplex system [even though not indexed] is easier to get the gears on, compared to Record set on the Carlton, but once you get the hang of it, the gears can be worked as well on the Campagnolo system - also none indexed.
The eagle eyed among you may notice the missing spoke on the Carlton! New wheels are required now. I have the hubs already, but it is a fair cost to cover, so it will have to wait a while.
ATB from George
Posted on: 17 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Well I think the Peugeot is a good bike, and one that certainly "theoretically" fits me better than the Carlton, but I find its ride disconcerting!
So I have taken the back wheel off the Peogeot and put it into the Carlton! Oddly the cog-spacing on the Maillard Hellicomatic freewheel is narrower than the Defiant, which is the same width between cogs as the old standard five speed freewheels found in the old 120 mm width hubs. The Carlton has a 126 mm hub [frame freespace], which was introduced in the early eighties to accomodate the then new six cog freewheel with the old standard spacing between sprockets. The Maillard hub is also 126 mm, so why the cogs are closer together is a mystery. I guess it might have been made so to fit into a 120 mm hub for older machines with the narrower frame freespace ...
So the top sprocket adjustment is adjusted narrower [leftwards looking forward], and the bottom ratio [nearest the spokes] is in alignment without alteration ...
The gearing is slower, and it will be interesting to see how significant this is in a direct comparison in the Carlton.
ATB from George
Posted on: 18 February 2011 by George Fredrik
"The gearing [on the Peugeot back wheel] is slower, and it will be interesting to see how significant this is in a direct comparison in the Carlton."
In traffic it makes no difference, but on the straight it is easy enough to be limited by the possibility of pedalling any faster!
I am really imaptient to be able to commission a pair of new wheels [Ambrosio rims with Sapim or DT spokes] to fit on a lovely pair of 1980s Campagnolo hunbs I have by me!
ATB from George
Posted on: 18 February 2011 by winkyincanada
You spin out a 52x14 on the flats? Respect.
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear Winki,
That's why I experimented with 53 teeth as a bigger front cog and a freewheel with 13 teeth rather 14 at the back on the Carlton. Nice to always have some gear left! The original gearing on the Carlton was 52/42 over 14-16-18-20-22-24, The Peugeot has this set of ratios on the back, but with 52/39 on the front, which is nicer for the steep hills. The Carlton is more of a challenge of course on the hills!
I never got to the point of running out of gear with 53 over 13.
We have two roads I can use between home and work, which are wide enough for sprinting, and both are flat for a mile or so, with only slight curves. Malvern Road, and Bromwich Road.
I can use either for my daily commute. Obviously sprinting if the conditions allow, such as our early starts in the summer time. Fun for a blast, but mostly I prefer a longer ride journey for fun, and we are rather hilly round here. My favourite route has a gain [and then loss] of 600 feet over fourteen miles from Worcester to Bishops Frome in Herefordshire. I go almost all the way on narrow rural lanes, and the route goes within a few hundred yards of the farm where I grew up, which is by the highest point [650 feet above sea-level. It is a beast going because you spend the first 12 miles gaining height [but very up and down during the gain], and two miles coming back down again ... The last part, going up, is a one in four when I am at my most knackered!
Coming back is much nicer as the two miles of ascent is about one in eight on the hill, and so manageable even after a half hour or so blow in Bishops Frome before the return!
Best wishes from George
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by Jono 13
George,
Tip the nose of your saddles down to avoid the numb todger experience and watch out for the milk wagon on those back roads in Herefordshire.
Jono
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Boxing Day 1979, the Milk Tanker and the A.I. man met head on - one in an Austin 1100 and the other in a four wheeler Leyland. The tanker-driver later had a nervous break-down and the A.I. man died at the scene, and that was on the B road from Malvern to Bromyard at the top of Hook's Lane [between Acton Cross, and Ridgeway Cross] only a mile from my house at the time in Evesbatch!
Yes you have to listen like a bat on those lanes as they are only as wide as a lorry. When you hear something it is sensible to slow right down in preparation, and be ready to get into the ditch!
ATB from George
PS: The Selle San Marco sadlle [Supercorsa] is very comfortable and does not cause any numb-ness. The north road bar is also spot on in respect of numb hands, and the Carlton as it is set up now is the first bike I have had that causes no numb-ness or aches even after a long ride!
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
A photograph showing how narrow is the sprocket spacing on the Maillard Helicomatic freewheel [on the Maillard hub of the Peugeot wheel] as fitted in the Carlton.
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Some Campagnolo and "IRD" Defiant "pron!"
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Posted on: 19 February 2011 by George Fredrik
So the new wheels will be built up on these hubs. The freewheel has been in use for 12 months and shows no sign of wear! The nickel finish is durable, and is nicer than black steel, but totally lacking any element of bling!
The one scewer is Record, and the one for the front hub is on the bike. The hubs themselves are 1980's Triomphe - rather nice - with the same bearings as the Super Record hubs of the time, but without the oil hole, and actually lighter by a fraction. Laced up but never used. They should be in use in my view!
ATB from George
Posted on: 20 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Showing how nicely the IRD Defiant fits onto the Campag "Triomphe" 126 mm hube sitting in the "gpm" back drop-out on the Carlton ...
This is old style stuff! I reckon that the 126 mm framespace with a well engineered standard-width six-speed freewheel on a good hub and with a fine derailleur was the pinnacle of the un-indexed old-style of derailleur shifting.
There is a small concession to easier gear-shifting with some sculpting of the Defiant teeth, but this screw-on freewheel is unlike a modern cassette of sprockets where the cogs are really thin and spaced close together, and where a good proportion of the metal in the teeth is machined away to allow for powered gear-shifts. That approach emphatically does not work with this older style set-up, but very fast changes are possible, which are virtually without clatter.
What I do wonder is just how much additional use is to be had with more than six speeds times two. Obviously this gives something like an effective eight speed machine as the overlap in ratios means that really the progress is something like using the bottom three rear cogs with the smaller front one, and making a double width leap of typical ratios [roughly 26% as opposed to roughly 10 to 15 % in the rear ratio differences] onto the big front sprocket for the faster rear ratios at the appropriate time. If one shifted up the front cog and down two at the back a very similar ratio is achieved ...
The rider must learn the un-indexed approach with a wide spacing [and how best to use the two cogs at the front to make timely shifts as these are more fragile than rear derailleur shifts], but it is a satisfying thing, of itself, to do this!
Because there is plenty of metal in the cogs, and a wider chain than is recommended for modern [more than seven speed] set-ups is advisable, the system is robust, easily kept in adjustment, and long lived. The precision of the engineering is also spot on. Nice to work with without being remotely fiddly to get on the topline ...
ATB from George
Gear chart using MPH @ 100 RPM Cadence
For 700c X 25 / 25-622 tyre
| 53 | 26.2 % | 42 | 13 | 32.0 | | [25.4] | 15.4 % | | | | 15 | 27.7 | | [22.0] | 13.3 % | | | | 17 | 24.5 | | 19.4 | 11.8 % | | | | 19 | 21.9 | | 17.3 | 10.5 % | | | | 21 | [19.8] | | 15.7 | 14.3 % | | | | 24 | [17.3] | | 13.7 |
|
Obviously this top ratio is impossible for me to run out of a possible faster cadence on the flat! But it is fun to pedal downhill for an exciting fast speed!!!
It is ill-advised to use the slowest two rear cogs with the big front sprocket as the chain is seriously out of line like that. Equally it is wrong to use the small front chain-wheel with the fastest two back speeds. It can become noisy if trying to
power on, and to do so is be unsympathic to the mechanical aspect.
Posted on: 20 February 2011 by George Fredrik
On the way to Happy Lands North I never got off bottom cog in an amiable amble that was not much more than walking pace!
If I tried the speedy notion on these narrow roads, perhaps my destination might have been Happy Lands [gone] West, right opposite the Cemetary the other side of the railway line - passing over as it were!
ATB from, George
Posted on: 21 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Taken yesterday, and a bit mucky from the currently filthy roads, the old lady still has a sense of get up and go about her!
The Schwalbe Marathon tyres are very good in the dark. The camera flash has well caught the "Hi-viz" strips in the walls. A very sensible idea.
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 February 2011 by George Fredrik
Seen some really nice 700c - 23 Schwalbe racing tyres - almost slicks - which must come for the new wheels after Easter, I guess!
Two season and two sets of tyres, just like Norwegians with summer and winter tyres ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 03 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Well I unexpectedly had the bad luck to meet the man who ran into me last December, when getting some bread and supper at the Co-op yesterday. It so upset me that I left a can of beans and 25 grams of Golden Virginia behind after I paid. They put the left things in a draw for me, and a couple of hours later I went back and fetched them. The Co-op is a top shop.
I was so disturbed by it that I had a nightmare and woke up at 3.30 am this morning. He accused me of lying about the incident and said he was sure I was laying it on a bit thick. I don't care to be called a dishonest, as I am not ready for it as I am not ...
Yes I was unreasonably upset. He has seen a sight of the claim my solicitor is putting in on my behalf to his insurance. I guess this may have been a surprise to his insurance company, but as the only part that will come to me is to cover [the as yet not bought] replacement parts [being a saddle and brakes levers] I am not going to make a profit, the claim is hardly laying it on with a trowel.
I have calmed down now, but I think he was trying to provoke me to violence, which is hard to do. Fifty this year, I have only hit two people in my life, and both stayed on the ground for quite a while after. Well excluding my brother - we used to fight in a controlled way most days. The agreed end was always the looser to say, "Submit." This was what allowed me the ability to know how to lay someone out, even if it has only twice been tested. One was my father, and the other was my room sharer at Agricultural College in 1981 in Shropshire. My student "colleague" went from being a proper pain in the neck to a good friend as a result, and my father and I never again were in each other’s company for more than half an hour for the rest of his life, and then it was a question of biting my tongue. I was sad to see the fact that it broke him at a personal psychological level to be put on the floor, but it was after ten years of daily torment from him. I was 19, and that was 1980.
So I have a long fuse, and the anger goes internal into a sort of shaking rage inside. I go quiet and become excessively civil, though very direct in a non-four-lettered way.
The insurance case should be sorted out in the next few weeks.
ATB from George
Posted on: 08 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Over the weekend my nephew Paddy called in with a school friend, who has a car.
Paddy [from the fair county of Norfolk] is at Birmingham University, and he was sizing up the Uni at Worcester with his friend, calling by at only an hour's notice, but that was nice anyway!
But as a six-foot youngster I insisted that he sample a classically proportioned English racing cycle more his size than mine as a five foot sixer ... The Carlton of course!
Rarely can a funnier sight have been seen than him leaning the bike over so as to - ehem, as it were [ooh Matron!] - get his leg over, before making painfully wobbly progress. He then pronounced the bike, "Un-ridable!"
Fortunately his mate then showed how it ought to be done, and asked if he might borrow the machine!
"No," of course, but many of the young of today have never been allowed to stretch themselves physically with a good bike. Paddy has one of those mountain bikes that look to me more like the cycle equivalent of the step-through scooter than anything else!
Anyway, I am commissioned to organise a proper Wodka Party in Birmingham before too long!
ATB from George
Posted on: 09 March 2011 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by George Fredrik
The Schwalbe Marathon tyres are very good in the dark. The camera flash has well caught the "Hi-viz" strips in the walls. A very sensible idea.
ATB from George
The Schwalbe Marathons are legendary tyres. More loaded touring is probably done on them than any other tyre. The Paris "Velib" rental bikes are all shod in them. Enough said. I did 2500km in Tasmania, fully loaded, on all sorts of roads and not a single flat on a set of Marathons.
Posted on: 09 March 2011 by George Fredrik
I can live without flat tyres!
Posted on: 10 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Just refitted the front 53 tooth cog, ready for stretching my legs on dry roads, though it is wasted on the wet and slippery roads of the winter months. Felt the shortness of the 52 tooth cog tonight, and so the urge caught me! I cannot beat the 53 tooth cog flat out, but heck it gets an amazing velocity!
It will be good to get the new wheels built up, but that might have to wait for a month or three, depending!
ATB from George
Posted on: 10 March 2011 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by George Fredrik:
Felt the shortness of the 52 tooth cog tonight, and so the urge caught me! I cannot beat the 53 tooth cog flat out, but heck it gets an amazing velocity!
ATB from George
You're a better man than me if you can spin out the 52 x 12 (pr even 13). I am also amazed that you can tell the difference between a 52 and a 53. Anyhow, good riding George.
Posted on: 10 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear Winki,
At the moment I have a top back cog of 14 teeth, because the wheel is borrowed! From my Ex-Peugeot. When I get a pair of wheels built up it will be back to 13 teeth on top at the back. Not till after Easter though for sure ...
I doubt I could spin out 52 over 13, though.
ATB from George
Posted on: 11 March 2011 by Svetty
Sorry George but the effect on overall gearing of the difference between 52 and 53 teeth chainrings is only 2%. This is negligible compared to other factors eg wind, and day to day variation in rider performance.
Of course the effect of a 1 tooth difference on the cassette cogs is much larger - approx 7% on average between the commonest sprocket sizes in mid-cassette. Even here though the difference in real-world cycling isn't huge.
Posted on: 11 March 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear Svetty,,
Even I can do arithmetic! A tad les than 2% between 52 and 53, and yes on a day with the wind in your face it is possible to imagine not even finding the big front cog! But of course you can feel two percent on a commuting route, when every weather condition is encountered over time! Restoring the top back cog to 13 [rather than 14] will be more significant ...
In reality I added the 13 - 24 Defiant freewheel [in place of the old Suntour 14 - 24] before getting the Record 53/42 crankset [instead of the worn out original Shimano 52/42 set], so this is actually the first time I have had 53 over 14 as a top cog! I have a spare 52 tooth front cog for the Super Record crankset, so I used it over the winter for the slightly gentler gearing it gives, and then my wheel with the 13 - 24 freewheel calved down. So back to the gearing the cycle was originally issued with in 1985 in a proper old mixture of Shimano, Suntour and Maillard parts rather than all Campag Record - why would that be done in an off the peg arrabgement? Ecomony of purchase, building down to a price I suppose ...
Reverting to a Maillard hub and freewheel [off the Peugeot] is instructive as I thought the Campag shifting was fairly fragile - no good powering threough the change. Now I am daily experiencing really dodgy shifts! The Maillard freewheel does not mesh well with a Record derailleur at all. I put the problems with the old Shimano derailleur down to it being worn out, but I doubt a perfectly un-worn arrangement would have been much better going by this!
I hope this clarifies the situation for you!
ATB from George
