How good does it have to get?

I'd say if you enjoy the music now, why bother? Upgraditis sucks - I'm nearly cured myself - until the next time.

There's another cure of course - you could always get the wife pregnant...

When the music's over turn out the lights

Cough, splutter! Pregnant??? Nah, I'd prefer a new set of speakers at this point in time...

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

It is a personal threshold thing i.e. you need to reach the point at which you personally are satisfied, once you do this you will find that upgrading becomes a different experience. Having not upgraded for 7 years I have reached that point. I now wish to upgrade but do not feel compelled to and that is a great feeling.

To use the car idea, my friends said that I would always want a more powerful car and then I purchased a car that was quite powerful. I've never wanted more power since - I reached my personal threshold.

This may be a load of rubbish but it has worked for me.

Well, let's see what this is really about.

I recently had a conversation with a psychologist who is also into high end gear. He had two observations: upgraditis may seem threatening to the partner because if (s)he sees you constantly lusting after something better even though you say you are basically happy with what you've got, this mindset may spill over to your relationship; i.e., people who always want to upgrade their hi-fi may also want to swap their partner for the latest, much improved model.

On another level, it may be about who gets to control what the discretionary household income gets spent on. For that, I'd recommend budgeting. If you set aside a specific budget each month for future upgrades, it becomes part of the household economy and your partner won't feel threatened by unexpected large expenditures.

I'm sure, TC, that those aren't your problems.

From my own experience, I have found a level of sound quality that is good enough for me. I don't really feel the need to upgrade anymore, even though I know there are even better systems out there than mine. My contentedness came about when I managed to accept that all systems must of necessity be a comppromise. No system does it all. So I told myself to live with this set of compromises for a while and when that seemed unbearable, to get a whole new system/set of compromises. I haven't felt the need to change yet ...

However, my system had to reach a certain level of quality before I could reach that contentedness. Maybe you haven't reached it yet. Please explain to your wife that you must find this level for yourself, and that your level is obviously higher than hers. On the other hand, odds are that the number of pairs of shoes you are content with is probably lower than hers. To each his own, as they say.


Markus

Very interesting thoughts, thanks folks.

I'm pretty satisfied with the sound I've got right now, but I also find myself in an unusual situation re: the preamp. The speaker upgrade is, for want of a better excuse, driven by a yearning for a smaller, somewhat higher quality speaker which will work better in my room and look more domestically acceptable. The preamp upgrade is an unusual one, though.

Basically when I originally purchased my (non Naim) preamp 18 months ago, the model I purchased was not that which I wanted to purchase - due to its release having been delayed. To cut a long story short, my ideal preamp has been a long time coming and as part of the deal offered by the manufacturer, the purchase price of the 'substitute' preamp (the 3B) is fully redeemable against that of the forthcoming preamp (the 3D). Assuming that the manufacturer doesn't muck it up, the jump from what I have (82-ish) will be equivalent of 82 to 552. So you can see where I'm coming from.

All this would be perfect but for the fact that the 'full allowance' upgrade is time limited, although I believe I still have plenty of time - I think 2 years.

The point in all of this is that I have known for some time that the preamp is a limiting factor and if I am ever to upgrade I should do it whilst I get the full allowance. Make sense?

The downside, however, is that my current system does sound (to my ears) extremely fine indeed, though a part of me is in limbo with the promise of what lies beyond with the new preamp.

Basically a conundrum!

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

quote:

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how do you know that it will be as good as you think it will be? Who told you that it's 552-level? Was it the dealer or the manufacturer? You never know, it might not be as good as they say it is.

---

Good point. How do I know - I don't. If it isn't as good as I am led to believe it will be then I won't buy it - end of story. My dealer told me - they also sell Naim, so are familiar with the hierarchy, though I believe they have only heard a pre-production version of the amp. You are entirely right that it might not be as good as they say it is - but, as I said, nobody would force me to buy it under any circumstances - only I would choose.

However, if it *is* as good as my dealer has told me, and bearing in mind that my dealer knows I never buy any kit without a decent home demo, I would certainly be interested.

The point of this isn't how good it may or may not be - that's jumping the gun in some respects - rather the nature of the 'deal' which I suppose has its own downside as well (i.e. it may bias any auditioning I do, based upon the relative ease with which I could then upgrade as compared to 'other brand' routes).

John

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

John,

if DNM delay the new preamp, the least they could do is to prolong the trade-in arrangement.

Markus

TC,

one question you need to think of - will a new preamp force and upgrade to your source, too?

I think part of my problem is that most of my hifi-owning buddies have 552/500 level systems. Any time I "need" to be reminded of "what I'm missing" I just have to go around and listen. Just what I need!!

cheers, Martin

E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com

Hi TC -

As someone who just went through four pairs of speakers in house searching for the right pair, and with a wife and two-month old at home, I (kindof) share your pain. My wife is very understanding and likes music too. At this point, my system is nowhere near the level of quality or expense of yours, but never mind that. A few thoughts.

"You need to tell her that the upgrading will stop after this preamp."

Hum...this is giving up too much ground for this one upgrade. Who knows what the future holds - either from a new kit standpoint (SACD player anyone?) or a personal financial standpoint.

"The speaker upgrade is, for want of a better excuse, driven by a yearning for a smaller, somewhat higher quality speaker which will work better in my room and look more domestically acceptable."

Hum...this means this one might be approached from a different angle. My speaker budget was originally 2K USD. But we were OK moving up to the 3K range as the Allaes will look mucho better in our living room and will work near walls. These are domestic plusses that both my wife and I enjoy. My wife and I don't play games so it wasn't about me finding an excuse to give her - we care about how our living room looks and is arranged. So some of the furnature budget got moved over. Its also a pain in the arse to buy/sell speakers so the Allaes will be in situ for quite a while and my wife knows this. The last speakers I had (before the ProAc Response 2's which really don't work in the room) I had for 15 years.

"It seems a little strange to want to buy a preamp that hasn't been manufactured yet, and how do you know that it will be as good as you think it will be?"

Rumor has it Naim had quite a few preorders for the 552 and 500 before anyone outside of Naim had heard them. Sound familiar?

BTW, what speakers are you considering?

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Touche, my dear Alan. Touche*.

Not really fantasising about kit as the preamp was and is the original model I wanted to hear and buy - it just got sort of delayed...

John

* I'm on a very locked-down PC and can't get to the character map to get that accent...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

I would argue that it's all a question of disposable income. If you have it, then you want a way to spend it. If hi-fi is what shakes your boat, then spend your cash on it.

I think that your wife really means "hey, I've thought of a better way to spend the cash".

Why don't you ask her what she wants.
Better still, state that of the disposable income, she can spend 50% on her interests, whilst you spend yours on your hi-fi. Problem solved.

I think it's OK to like the hardware. NAIM gear is minimalist and chic-- beautifully crafted, with a a great tactile feel to it. what's not to love?

Most of us also love music of one kind or another.

I see no conflict.

quote:

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Originally posted by paul atkinson:
Isn't it just when you get back to routinely playing the whole album?

---

LOL. Spot on!

Steve.

I think that there is some middle ground available. I love music and love my Hi-Fi. I can enjoy music on a mono radio or on my Naim system. The difference for me is the additional ability that my better system has to provide extra emotional involvement. This tends to manifest its self as provoking memories of concerts, friends or family etc.

Yes I'm a bit of a box junkie but there's more to it than that.

Brendan

Jeckyl
I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head here.
The important thing is not too take music reproduction so seriously that enjoyment of music is compromised.We probably all drift into this sometimes.

And yes we probably are all a bit mad.But harmlessly so as long as the kids don't end up starving as a result of hifi expenditure[perhaps the occasional missed meal is ok....]

Simon

quote:

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Originally posted by Stallion:
I want to believe the performance is happening right in front of me in my own room.

Marco.

---

While I agree with most of Marco's excellent post, on this point I disagree.

There isn't space in my living room for a string quartet, never mind an entire symphony orchestra. Even a single human voice can be overpowering in such a setting, as I discovered when a friend of mine who had trained as an opera singer sang for me at my home.

So, rather than wanting my hi fi to give me the illusion of a symhony orchestra in my living room, I would prefer my hi fi to give me the illusion of listening to my favourite band or orchestra from the best seat in an auditorium sympathetic to the style of music played. Or as Paul Benson (I think) once said in Hi Fi Answers: "I don't want the band in the room with me. I want to be in the room with the band."

Since childhood, I've always prefered studio recordings to live recordings. The "atmosphere" of a live event has always got in the way of the music itself for me. Some bands play well live, and others don't, so the studio version may well hide a multitude of sins regarding the spontaneous talent (or lack thereof) of the performers, but the end result has always been what matters to me.

quote:

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My feeling that people who claim they are only interested in the music so only need a ghetto blaster aren't listening to much more than the tune & the back beat. They certainly aren't picking up the subtlies of the playing or the full interplay of instruments. So maybe they aren't into music as much as they claim to be.

---

As the means of musical reproduction improves through sistem upgrades, then so does the portrayal of the tune and backbeat amongst other aspects of the musical performance. The love of music through the simple ghetto blaster or kitchen/clock radio is that of our youth who are probably just interested in hearing the lyrics/voices of those with whom they have an emotional crush/sexual fantasies. For this reason they may well prefer to see their idols play infront of their eyes on MTV etc, without actually listening to the musical backdrop to their hormone-driven fantasies.

Deprived of the visual stimuli, they will happily settle for their boombox received as a recent birthday/Christmas present.

Moreover, pubescent boys will, over recent years like Madonna/Britney Spears/Spice Girls etc cos they fancy them. Girls of the same age, and upto five years or so older, will also listen/watch the above on-screen because they celebrate female sexual power to which they aspire.

Boybands do the same in gender reverse.

The quality of sonic/reproductive equipment enters bugger-all into this particular equation.



Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SATURDAY 12 April 2003 at 06:27.]

At one point or another, all of us were "music lovers" as described above. what's not to love about music?
Somewhere we heard a decent system, and the insight and emotional connection was enhanced, and we realized that a larger dimension of experience was available to us.
As we acclimated. Because it IS truly addictive, we sought a better connection. And so it goes.
I can get chills or watery eyes listening to radio in the car, but ususally it's a piece that already has made a strong emotional impact in a different framework, not some insight offered by the factory stereo.
To this day I remember the moment that I made the astonishing discovery that the technology could expand my musical enjoyment.
It never sounds like real musicians to me, although sometimes it is better balanced and perhaps more polished than "live".
The evolution of myself and technology has made it increasingly easier to suspend my disbelief and consistently make the emotional connection with the performance.
No easy answer to the question, "How good does it have to get?" Perhaps it should be, "How easily do you forget everything else and make the connection?" Whenever that happens, that is as good as it has to be.

I’m impressed with what has been expressed on this topic. To sum it up for me, the technology and the tweaking DO bring you closer to the music. Better systems simply enhance and open up new musical appreciation. And as Bob said, once the emotional connection has melded, it stays, transfers, and grows. Tom.

Wasn't the old Linn line that if you are dissatisfied then you should upgrade (assuming you can afford it)? Makes sense to me. I'm at 72/hicap/250 and I still want some more.

Meanwhile, Steven, it's probably worth noting that very few "live" albums are truly live. Most are a mix of the live multitrack and rerecording, and quite a few are straight studio recordings with audience noise mixed in. I'm obviously talking rock here (and Ellington at Newport).

--Eric

I do think that there is something to the idea of getting "acclimated" that Bob and others have noted. I noticed with past upgrades that after the intial state of being impressed I stopped really noticing that anything was different and got used to it. When I realised that this was happening I pretty much stopped upgrading. For me, it no longer made sense to continue spending big money on improvements that I knew I would quickly take for granted and not really notice. So with one exception (a tonearm/cart. combo) I stopped some years back with my old 80's vintage gear.

I should add that when I stopped I was happy with the system and felt that it was basically balanced (now: LP12 + Ekos + Klyde, 32.5+Hi, 135s, 'Briks). Although I've thought at times of upgrading the record player, I know that further improvements will be expensive, fairly small, and quickly taken for granted. So it it has been pretty easy to stop.

Eric

quote:

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:

The so called "Nu-metal" so popular among many teenagers is a perfect exemplar of this fact. It should really be categorised in an entirely new term,

---

John

might I suggest "shite" as such a term?

Regards

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by J. A. Toon:
IHow many people do you know that will sit down, put on some music, and do nothing else but be completely absorbed by the music?

I for one, have met very few other people that do this. Everyone "listens" to music. However, the overwhelming, vast majority, put music on as "background music", something perhaps to idly sing along to, whilst _doing something else_. Perhaps whilst chatting to some friends. Or whilst working, cooking, cleaning, or whatever else.

---

John

I would differ here. Being aware that you are a student, I would assume that you share accomodation ( pros and cons to this.. ) and do not have the chance to simply sit down by yourself with some favourite sounds and a bottle.

Ny personal situation is that I have a young family, and once the monsters are in bed I fairly frequently do just that. I would expect that I am not alone in this.

And how much time do you spend "cleaning" - we have discussed this before

Regards

Mike

Again, more great points. John, maybe what you're saying is most folks like to hear and carry a tune perhaps dressed up with with some thump and sizzle. I don't think that is music either. Is it then, the audio details of live presence that transcends a tune into music? Isn't it the more visceral details revealed increasingly by "better" equipment, that keeps us upgrading?

Tom.

What IS it that makes some us perfectly willing to dump every last penny of our disposable income, and then some, into this ultimate quest for musical reproduction? What percentage of us are instead or also, really good with actual musical instruments? Is our sound system a surrogate to that expression?

I do not play an instrument, and am in awe of those with talent who do. I would love to master most all instruments and types of music. I was brought up in a fairly restrictive environment, emotionally. I love that musical expression can be intense enough to bring out emotion. Just think of being close to a great singing voice. Each nuance of emotion, skill and power grabs you and makes you feel. A great sound system can reproduce that, often better than live. Maybe we keep upgrading, also, because of the relatively safe expression of emotion it allows us.

Tom.