Which sounds better streaming or dig out?

quote:

Originally posted by realhifi:
... What am I missing here?

That adding an NDX to a UServe is a bl**dy expensive add-on to just get iRadio when UServe+nDAC can already access a NAS over CIFS/SAMBA and deliver top quality sound.

-
aleg

quote:

Originally posted by realhifi:
What am I missing here?

The fact that in adding the streaming functionality to the nDAC and making it an NDX, it then benefits from an nDAC to upgrade it. So it would seem that Naims implementation of streaming degrades the capabilities of the nDAC.

I favour the "mess of over-lapping products so that they cover all bases but confuse everyone" option.

No-one could have sat down and designed this product range on purpose!

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
So it would seem that Naims implementation of streaming degrades the capabilities of the nDAC.

Likesmusic,

I am not sure the degrading is as a result of adding streaming capabilities, but rather a deliberate design decision by Naim which is the disapointing bit. They have used different components in the NDX Vs the nDAC (the main one being the DAC).

It would seem their strategy is driven by economics rather then producing an optimum product. I think an NDX with the additional features it has over the nDAC but on par in terms of sound quality to the nDAC should have been their aim.

ASenna04

ASenna04 - ah .. the penny hadn't dropped that the DAC itself is different between the NDX and the nDAC - I should've read the white papers more carefully. That explains a few things I guess. Why I won't be buying an NDX for a start!

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
ASenna04 - ah .. the penny hadn't dropped that the DAC itself is different between the NDX and the nDAC - I should've read the white papers more carefully. That explains a few things I guess. Why I won't be buying an NDX for a start!

Exactly, and why I and many others will not be getting it. You don't even need to know the technical information to realize that the digital processing of the NDX is inferior. The fact that Naim state that an updgrade path to the NDX includes adding the nDAC gives the game away. I find it difficult to justify to myself in having a product like NDX with all the expensive high value components inside it and then to add another box with high value components. The end result may be better sound quality but not at cost effective way. The duplication of high value components in the two boxes is not very logical.

That is why we either need an NDX like product at a higher cost to nDAC but at par in terms of sound quality to nDAC or a dedicated streamer with the delta features between the NDX and nDAC.

ASenna04

and yet ... who has heard the NDX yet?

Tog

Apparently we have moved into a different topic.

Personally this is how I understand the Naim line:

a) all-in-one product: UnitiQute, or Uniti if you want a CD-player as well

b) complete streaming solution: UnitiServe and UnitiQute

c) High-end separate elements: 2 options:
- UnitiServe and NDX, with DAC optional for higher quality
- HDX and DAC, with NDX optional for more streaming features

Each option corresponds to a different price point. Overall, I think it is a very good product line.

And yet which sounds better?

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Alamanka:
...
- HDX and DAC, with NDX optional for more streaming features
...

In this option the NDX has nothing more to offer than access to iRadio. The UPnP-client section is completely superfluous to the features already available in the HDX.

So a very expensive iRadio add-on don't you think?
IMO not a very good productline.

-
aleg

An nDac streamer with pre-amp would be nice guys

Tog

quote:

Tell me why the Qute couldn't handle AIFF or ALAC, when the NDX will do so?

Hello Allen

I don't know if you have seen this post by David Denver,D D's Post which seems to say that this is coming. Let's hope it is what many seem to be asking for.

Peter

quote:

PS And just to add, Naim's PR / marketing through all of this is sadly deficient. Poor old Phil tries to come on here from time to time, but with all due respect, I rather suspect there is a limit to what he is allowed to discuss or divulge. Talk about keeping everyone in the dark.

I thought I was alone with this kind of thoughts

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
And yet which sounds better?

Tog

This is an excellent question.

If there are differences in sound quality, we would like to know. If there are no differences, then it becomes a matter of features, integration with existing system, personal preferences and so on.

In any case, when it comes to sound quality, we can reasonably assume that NONE of those options will sound bad. Similarly we can make the same assumption for overall built quality, material used and design.

So I am a bit puzzled when people on this forum complain about features and price.
Today it is possible to go to any supermarket and buy a CD player for less than $50. Yet, a Naim CD-Player is sold several thousand of dollars. Anyone who make a judgment strictly on Feature/Price will conclude that is completely irrational to buy ANY of Naim products.
Naim is pricey, yes. Is this really a new information?

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by realhifi:
... What am I missing here?


That adding an NDX to a UServe is a bl**dy expensive add-on to just get iRadio when UServe+nDAC can already access a NAS over CIFS/SAMBA and deliver top quality sound.

-
aleg
Posts: 1076 | Location: where skies touch the ground | Registered: Sat 06 June 2009 IP

Provided you have the hardwired infrastructure. The NDX isn't simply getting internet radio but is a renderer which can also WIRELESSLY access
music from computers and the UServe in addition to being a Dac which can function as an update to cd players, etc. In addition it can also be used as a bridge to connect a Naim preamp or integrated amplifer onto the network to use an iTouch or iPad as both a control for choosing music but also to control the volume, source selection on those pieces. In short it is what a Qute is with expanded performance (and the ability to be upgrade with seperate power supplies) a better Dac, matching classic casing, no preamp or amplifier parts to interfere, and an expanded file reading capability. Yep, it's pricey. But if it a superb sounding Dac along with all mentioned in a classic case and is all you need to have sitting in your listening room along with the preamp, amp, integrated of your choice and there is no computer or disks in sight....it could very well be all anyone needs to truly jump into the digital HD fray. Think for a moment about this piece.

Ignored post by Aleg posted Tue 21 December 2010 14:43 Show Post

likesmusic
Senior Member
Posted Tue 21 December 2010 15:27 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by realhifi:
What am I missing here?


The fact that in adding the streaming functionality to the nDAC and making it an NDX, it then benefits from an nDAC to upgrade it. So it would seem that Naims implementation of streaming degrades the capabilities of the nDAC.

I think the problem is simply that Naim decided to put a digital out on it. I'm willing to bet that a LOT of people will hear this and be done with their search for a digital front end for the new generation of Hard Drive based music that is becoming todays standard for music listening. I mean look at the price. It is still not at the cost of a CDX2. For what it does? As far as needing an nDac "upgrade", why don't we let it come out and have people listen to it. Surprising amount of chatter for something that has yet to reach the shelves.

quote:

Originally posted by realhifi:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by realhifi:
... What am I missing here?


That adding an NDX to a UServe is a bl**dy expensive add-on to just get iRadio when UServe+nDAC can already access a NAS over CIFS/SAMBA and deliver top quality sound.

-
aleg

Provided you have the hardwired infrastructure. The NDX isn't simply getting internet radio but is a renderer which can also WIRELESSLY access
music from computers and the UServe in addition to being a Dac which can function as an update to cd players, etc. In addition it can also be used as a bridge to connect a Naim preamp or integrated amplifer onto the network to use an iTouch or iPad as both a control for choosing music but also to control the volume, source selection on those pieces. In short it is what a Qute is with expanded performance (and the ability to be upgrade with seperate power supplies) a better Dac, matching classic casing, no preamp or amplifier parts to interfere, and an expanded file reading capability. Yep, it's pricey. But if it a superb sounding Dac along with all mentioned in a classic case and is all you need to have sitting in your listening room along with the preamp, amp, integrated of your choice and there is no computer or disks in sight....it could very well be all anyone needs to truly jump into the digital HD fray. Think for a moment about this piece.

Somehow I cannot find this original posting.

I know what the NDX is, I know what UPnP-renderers are. I just don't want them.

And I question its list of, again superfluous, features when compared to the HDX and UServe.
Not everybody want to jump on this UPnP thing.
Especially not when it is loaded with old technology (max 96 kHz streaming, max 802.11-g wireless, only 2.4 kHz band).

802.11-g is OK if this audio streaming is the only thing you are doing wirelessly, provided you have a decent router and know how to set it up properly. But people who are using wireless also are likely to have wireless computers browsing the net and maybe have kids surfing and downloading from the net. This is all going to influence the streaming reliability of the wireless UPnP-kit when using 802.11-g.
Besides the 802.11-n standard is there already for years and years now. Why go back to old technology??

For those who have a wired infrastructure (or a good wireless bridge) the HDX and the UServe are devices with sufficient features to access all network-based music stores in the most reliable way possible. The ony feature lacking is internet streaming. And it is asking far, far too much to have people switch over to UPnP-stuff with all its problems and limitations, just to have internet streaming added.

When you already have an nDAC and either an HDX or UServe sitting in your HiFi rack with a nice SPDIF to your NAC-xxx, the only usefull feature an NDX adds is iRadio, all the rest is superfluous.

Everybody who is going on and on about this UPnP rendering stuff, seem to forget that HDX and UServe also have local playback and there is no need for UPnP, they only lack internet streaming and IMO it is not done to push people towards additional UPnP-devices to get this feature added.

-
aleg

@aleg

I can't help thinking that UPnP is a step backward compared to either direct, DAAP, Slimserver or Sonus' mesh networking - certainly in terms of usability.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Tell me why the Qute couldn't handle AIFF or ALAC, when the NDX will do so?

The Uniti, UnitiQute and NDX share a common core code and so filetypes supported on one platform for native playback will be supported across the other platforms with updated releases of code.

ALAC is not licensed by Apple to *ANYONE* (as far as Apple tell us) and as we are Apple software partners (we use their authentication chips in our products to give iDevice connectivity) we *HAVE* to abide by their rules ...

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Have Naim just thought about controlling the preamp via the GUI for these products, and saved it just for the NDX? Why wasn't it possible on the other products?

Why would we implement preamp control on the Uniti and UnitiQute? They're a standalone product. The NDX is a source component and so preamp control is appropriate for that device (and it has the relevant hardware built in to do so which the Uniti and UnitiQute don't have as they don't need it).

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Why hasn't iRadio been enabled on the HDX and Serve, it's there and possible, but not officially?

I believe I have stated why elsewhere (and other people have also made reasonable comments too) because as far as we're concerned it isn't solid enough yet and it has also to be brought through to the web GUI *AND* to the NaimNet side of things as well - there's a lot of work still needs to be done on it. We cannot stop certain apps accessing the functionality that is there currently but we don't support it at this stage.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
As someone has mentioned (and it's come up before), why didn't the NDX start from the nDAC level and build upon that?

Because that would have ended up being a much more expensive product ... it's like saying that if we bring out a new XS Series integrated amp why don't we start at the XS pre-power level and build on that...

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Where are our iPad apps, the Chorus DS app for Linn is leaving Naim in it's trail and I am sure that is pushing people towards the Linn DS's?

The iPad apps are in dvelopment - unfortunately not within my "sphere" so I can't comment further on that...

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
It's all very unco-ordinated if you ask me.

It's all resourcing and priorities - things are pretty carefully prioritised here and we do have finite bandwidth available.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
PS And just to add, Naim's PR / marketing through all of this is sadly deficient. Poor old Phil tries to come on here from time to time, but with all due respect, I rather suspect there is a limit to what he is allowed to discuss or divulge. Talk about keeping everyone in the dark.

Less of the old please...

I've said here that I cannot comment on anything that there hasn't been an official release of infomation on.

Internet Radio on the servers has not had an official release *HOWEVER* a 3rd party app uses those hooks (currently unsupported by us) to allow access to that functionality so I can answer questions relating to that.

It's a fine line that marketing have to tread - if something is announced then it's wanted *NOW* and a frenzy develops on the forums. For example Dave Dever mentioned internet radio being developed on the servers a while ago and suddenly we get a flurry of emails asking for the update even though it was made clear that it was still in development - I actually had one four days after Dave's posting saying "Dave posted that information last week - why isn't it ready yet?" so it's not a case of purposely keeping anyone in the dark ...

Phil

quote:

Where are our iPad apps, the Chorus DS app for Linn is leaving Naim in it's trail and I am sure that is pushing people towards the Linn DS's?

Really?

quote:

It's a fine line that marketing have to tread - if something is announced then it's wanted *NOW* and a frenzy develops on the forums. For example Dave Dever mentioned internet radio being developed on the servers a while ago and suddenly we get a flurry of emails asking for the update even though it was made clear that it was still in development - I actually had one four days after Dave's posting saying "Dave posted that information last week - why isn't it ready yet?" so it's not a case of purposely keeping anyone in the dark ...

The first time, you can smile and whistle-the second time, you can shrug-but the third time, even after you've kept quiet about something non-public, the knives come out, and the mobs want their bread and circuses.

Ahh, the forum...welcome to the world of the technical sales channel.

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
@AMA Good point - well made

It will be difficult for companies like Naim and Linn to keep up with upstarts from Europe and China who will produce Dacs that can rival even the nDac very quickly.

Tog

They've been using the best chip sets for years yet I've still not heard one cheaper that those brit bits that I would consider using for myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
@aleg

I can't help thinking that UPnP is a step backward compared to either direct, DAAP, Slimserver or Sonus' mesh networking - certainly in terms of usability.

Tog

Slimserver and SONOS are UPNP. Sonos' mesh network is proprietary and VG but requires both send and recieve units and is also currently limited to standard def. Probably to keep it reliable as wireless.

AMA, Top kit has always gone to more seperated. Yes, there are more receivers sold than preamps but if you want more you pick your favorite bits and assemble.

There is a method to Naim's madness. In their music network there are booth the serve and rendering side. The confusion comes from them allowing most of these to be more versitile. When you lend a finger.... A UnitiServe and NDX is a really neat, user freindly and self contained combo. It's an optimum way to do UPNP. Of course it's not cheap or for everybody but that's what choices are for.

Just occasionally you get a sense that the best way to respond to anything that might possibly criticise Naim's approach is by reverting to the "of course Naim is expensive and not for some people ..." response.

Psychologically fascinating but not very productive and very unnecessary. If life were that simple then all the world's problems could be solved by throwing money at them. That, as I hope most of us know, is thankfully not the case.

Naim kit is fabulous ... but perfect ... not so much ...which is great because being perfect would be very very boring. After all once you had opened your wallet you wouldn't have to open your mind as well.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by js:
...
There is a method to Naim's madness. In their music network there are booth the serve and rendering side.
...

And a side of local playback through SPDIF on their server products, even though everybody seems to want to forget that (esp. the traders ).

-
aleg

quote:

AMA, Top kit has always gone to more seperated.

js, you mean KDS?

Or this

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
Just occasionally you get a sense that the best way to respond to anything that might possibly criticise Naim's approach is by reverting to the "of course Naim is expensive and not for some people ..." response.

Psychologically fascinating but not very productive and very unnecessary. If life were that simple then all the world's problems could be solved by throwing money at them. That, as I hope most of us know, is thankfully not the case.

Naim kit is fabulous ... but perfect ... not so much ...which is great because being perfect would be very very boring. After all once you had opened your wallet you wouldn't have to open your mind as well.

Tog

What the heck are you talking about. I addressed your issues directly before saying anything like that. Of course nothing is for everybody. You're twisting the emphasis of my entire post, apparently because you didn't care for the body of it. I sell more sonos boxes than Naim streaming boxes so you're very mistaken about my meaning.

It's not my fault you pointed at 2 upnp products as being better than upnp. It's probably what garnered your 'look away, nothing to see here' response.

I also prefer an HDX type solution to upnp but when done properly by controlling both ends, many of the issues we've seen in universal type upnp arrangements become moot just as in the systems you noted but to be honest, I've seen slow downs in SB setups when a server pc was busy and not that powerful. This would be true of any multi purpose server low on resouces used with any renderer. Not as big a deal with Sonos where they have both ends covered.

Did Santa leave a lump of coal or are you just naturally grumpy?