nDAC: USB input rocks - output from mac doesn't

ThomasDJ, did you get any further with your findings? 

I have the new Mac Mini and contemplating the nDac to upgrade my Supernait. What Mac are you using? Are you using optical out?

yes it sounds quite sad on my iMac to NDAC too,  something like the hiFace makes a HUGE difference.   It does introduce a bit more latency though so not very good for watching movies. 

The more i have lived with the NDAC I cannot really understand why Naim missed out USB audio, even if it came with slightly reduced quality compared to the data stick.  After all they do support iPods via the USB. 

Also on your mac do try the free player called Songbird.  To me it sounds miles better than others I have tried. 

Fozz

I agree that WAV into nDAC via USB thumb drive sets a good baseline.  I use an M-Audio Firewire Audiophile attached to a new Mac Mini, and formerly to an older Intel MBPro.  With a good RCA to BNC cable to the DAC, it is pretty close to the USB SQ; much better than via a $40 optical cable.  I will try optical again when my Supernova6 arrives, which some say eliminates the need for the extra box.

Nick

I got myself an nDAC in January, followed by a MacMini in February, and so far I'm a bit disappointed with sound from MacMini via a good optical/toslink (not a WW Supernova, I've considered it too pricey so far, and also hard to find and test in my country).

Haven't tried the USB-stick option much, will test it some more.

Sound from a very good disc/transport-via-coaxial sounds lovely, much better than MacMini-via-optical.

Have tried different players/software on the Mac.

Actually preferred sound of my old computer setup: iMac (ca 2007) via cheaper-optical into DacMagic.

Would like to stay out of USB-to-SPDIF-converters (but am willing to try and be convinced) and although Firewire is a slightly better option than USB, it seems FW-to-SPDIF are quite rare/expensive.

Are you willing to try a PC with a PCI card like the Juli@?

If not, a usb-to-spdif is your best bet for an improvement.

-patrick

Sorry, not really willing to switch from Mac to PC, although I've heard a lot of good things about Juli@ soundcard.

Call me naive/ignorant, bit I believe that both PC and Mac are equally able to output digital sound, knowing full well there are differences (media players, OS-audio-implementations, hardware).

When I bought the nDAC, my salesman waved a usb-to-spdif device in front of me, but I'm not willing to give up on optical/toslink just yet. However I might borrow the device from the store and let my ears decide.

== hego99 ==

As a sidenote to my previous posts, I just found out that my toslink-cable was not properly plugged into the nDAC.

Like many others, I've complained about the weakness/wobblyness of toslink-contacts in general.

The one I use for the MacMini is not a cheap plastic cable, it's good quality with heavy metal connects.

It felt loose/wobbly, so I applied more force, and 'presto' !!! , it snapped into place with a solid "click".

Don't know if I will hear a difference, maybe in my mind :-)

== hego99 ==

I strongly recommend you try a USB/SPDIF convertor. You should be able to borrow one from a dealer for home trial.

+1 to what Tony said above.

Try a BNC Hi-Face.

+2

HiFace USB to BNC/SPDIF convertor, BNC to BNC cable to nDAC

Fidelia player.

FWIW, I have just added a Naim DAC between my Mac Mini and Supernait. 

I compared the optical connection (Wireworld Supernova cable) with the usb stick using the same FLAC files.

I don't believe there's any difference in SQ, but it could be because it's the latest low jitter Mac Mini.

Switching back to the SN internal DAC and the difference is quite noticeable. 

You cannot make a judgment on USB in this context.

USB is a shit interface for music. However in the context of the NDX its connected to a stick with very little between it and the NDX. It could be with a wet piece of string for all it matters.

In terms of the mac, I would get rid of all the crap you are using to make it sound 'better' and go back to basics.

Import a Red book CD, do not upsample and all that crap and play it out of a simple player (not itunes) Although the digitial audio volume on the mac will be disabled many of these players including itunes have their own volume control, ensure this is to maximum (makes it line level then) and see how you get on.

Deleted post

I tend to agree with Gary.. Might rephrase it however ;-)

USB is quite a loose specification in terms of noise, impedance matching etc. Therefore you are at the mercy of the USB lead and interface.

sPDIF is far tighter in spec, so assuming compliant transceivers and cable it is easier to get a predictable result.

I think if you know your transport jitter is low, I would try an RF choke or two on your SPDIF lead to see if that improves things. 

Personally, I use a Wireworld Supernova 6 glass fibre optic cable to connect my Mac Mini to Naim DAC. Since trying this I would not want to go back to using the USB port on the Mac Mini. [Please note this only applies to the new Mac Mini running Lion which has an exceptionally quiet S/PDIF interface]. I tried plastic optical interfaces between Mac Mini and Naim DAC and I didn't like the ones I tried. I found I liked the glass ones including the discontinued TCI and aforementioned Wireworld. I have a few optical cables so not saying there are no other great cables out there. I consider the Wireworld better than the Chord, for example. Quite why I'm not sure; I've seen no measurements that support what I hear, so this is a purely subjective.

Personally, I find no difference from various Mac music players provided they are configured for bit perfect replay. However, this can be a pain to get right in iTunes so I use Bit Perfect as a plug-in. For playing FLAC, I use Decibel. I cannot tell the difference between Decibel playing FLAC and iTunes playing ALAC, WAV or AIFF. The bitstream is the same. 

If you read the Naim white paper then Naim does not put a computer USB interface on its DAC because of problems with USB injecting unwanted noise. Another top quality DAC maker, Berkley Audio Design, follows the same philosophy. Yes Naim could engineer a quiet USB, but this would  add to the price. Not sure I'd want that when if I need to use USB, as is the case for most Macs, then I could buy the excellent Halide Bridge (simple cable) or Audiophilio USB/S-PDIF (state of the art measurements) or use my existing V-Link (as long as iTunes is set for 44.1/16).  The original hiFace is also good though it does need drivers. I'm sure the BAD Alpha USB to S/PDIF would be first class, but not heard it (their DAC is superb). 

However, with Mac Mini, the Wireworld Supernova 6 glass fibre optic cable is what I use and I think it is as good as it gets. I'm very happy with the results. I expect the NDS will outperform it though, but not heard Mac Mini/Supernova/Naim DAC/555PS direct;y against NDS/555PS using my system (which is very modest compared with Naim's demo system). 

Roll on NDS and we can forget S/PDIF, Transports and external DACs or can we ...... 

Thanks for all the input/suggestions in this thread (that I didn't start, just re-woke).

I may test/trial a usb-to-spdif-converter from my dealer, like many of you have suggested.

I may also have been premature in my slagging-off/disappointment over the MacMini-toslink-nDac combo, based on possibly naive expectations in my recent January/February upgrade.

My old computer-source-setup was:

 a) iMac (2007)

 b) toslink, 5-meter, cheap

 c) Cambridge DacMagic

My upgrade for all three parts are:

 a) MacMini (2011-version, better low-jitter-toslink-output)

 b) toslink, 1-meter, very good (but not glas-fibre Wireworld-Supernova)

 c) Naim DAC

I'm well aware that the nDac is new, probably needs more running-in-time (I don't expect that the toslink parts MacMini & cable need any burn-in-time), the DacMagic got 3 years to warm up .

(I really considered the Wireworld/Supernova cable, but in my godforsaken country it costs like 150 GBP which is about a quarter of a MacMini-computer, and there's only ONE store in the country that sells it which gives me little chance to borrow one for testing/evaluation.)

As for media-players I use iTunes+BitPerfect and Vox (for FLAC-files).

Hello Richard

I haven't got a suitable USB cable to try this for you - all my USB cables have B connectors at one end. I'd need two A type connectors between Mac and DAC. I doubt the Mac would recognise it as an output device though - there must be some kind of handshake as if I plug in my V-Link, a Mac recognises it instantly in Audio Midi, if I replace the V-Link with a printer then there is no Audi Midi entry (quite rightly). So I can only blast bitstreams at co-operative devices. 

Perhaps somebody who could give this a go could confirm or disprove my guess. 

All the best, Guy

Richard,

What is wrong with you???  You KNOW the Naim DAC will not accept USB from a computer.  YOU KNOW THIS!  Dont you remember being all mad about it over the last few months?

But to answer your question... the answer is A. Silence.

-p

I do now, because of helpful Naimees such as Guido and ThomasDJ.  

Why does it so upset you?  I wanted to know what, if anything, would happen if someone were to attempt to connect using the USB.  Curiosity is nothing if not satisfied.  Now I am satisfied.

Oh yes, thank you, Patrick for your comments. Please try not to take offence. I was not trying to offend you.

Richard

I probably needed smileys in my post.  Sorry, I was trying to be humorous.  I am just confused.

I get days like that   I think it has something to do with age.

Richard

I said "I am just confused" due to your ongoing/reoccurring USB questions.  After all of the previous threads in which this topic has been repeatedly discussed with you in great detail, I was flummoxed that you asked that question above.

But I was not trying to come across as upset or offended.  Frustrated, yes...

Cheers,

Patrick