UnitiServe for free experiment
Posted by: Tog on 19 November 2010
So a little experiment.
Before I give in a buy a UnitiServe I'm going to see if I can build something similar for free using an old laptop and Vortexbox. Yes I know that the Serve has a low jitter digital out and I could build a box like Sonore with a Lynx card but I'm keeping this as a simple server exercise.
Can Vortexbox beat DigiFi - could I save £2000?
Tog
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by okli
Sounds interesting - please report the results.
If only I could find some free time to write small media db software with extended functions I think this would become an unbeaten project ;-)
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Rosewind
Tog.
It is possible to build such a thing. I did and it works. I use its server capabilities sometimes as an alternative to my Synology NAS (209+) in particular if I am in a hurry to listen to a recently re-ripped cd (flac). On my NAS most files were previously ripped as mp3 320 (alas) and I have had to rerip everything which was made oh so much easier with the "new" homegrown Vortexbox.
Best wishes,
Peter
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Occean
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by Tog:
So a little experiment.
Before I give in a buy a UnitiServe I'm going to see if I can build something similar for free using an old laptop and Vortexbox. Yes I know that the Serve has a low jitter digital out and I could build a box like Sonore with a Lynx card but I'm keeping this as a simple server exercise.
Can Vortexbox beat DigiFi - could I save £2000?
Tog
Could you sell it? Could you warrant it? Can you support it with sales and support training? Would you even create a user forum where competing products could be freely discussed?
Hmmm...I didn't think so. Good luck.
As an aside - I walk around trade shows with never-before-heard brands that were started by enlightened hobbyists who had no conception of what is required to sell, market and support products. Most of these "enlightened hobbyists" are rather intelligent, but cynical as to the value for money that can be had with existing brands' products.
Needless to say, most of these brands disappear after a time.
And while I, myself, understand the DIY ethic, I also know what it's like to try to show someone else how to engineer a product, i.e., to build a perfectly functioning integration of hardware and software from scratch AND be responsible for its performance and upkeep.
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by AMA
David, I don't think Tog meant any competition.
It's a single case based on enthusiasm of a single person.
And he is going to publish the findings on the Naim forum!
These stories may cut the sales vacancies for 0.00005% but increase the value of the
ready solutions for the (100% - 0.00005%) of the rest of us.
And eventually increase the production sales
I support this initiative.
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Tog
David - so serious
My life is already complicated enough without setting up in competition with Naim. Although I do think someone missed a trick not building a dac to go with the Mac Mini. I would spend all the budget getting the casework right and be bankcrupt in the first week.
A bit of fun - Vortexbox already sell their own servers and appear to be doing well. However, the "TogServe" as it is now called has reminded me how long it is since I used a Unix command line...bash bash.
When I go into mass production with the "TogServe" I will be sure to offer you exclusive North American distribution rights.
Tog MD TogServe Audiophile Things Inc
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by likesmusic
Good luck Tog. If you debunk a few myths on the way, so much the better!
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Hook
Hi Tog Inc. -
Lots of good tips over at Computeraudiophile dot com. You might want to have a look at the parts list for their CAPS server. A bit out of date by now -- everything PC-related seems to refresh every 6 months or so, but still a good starting point (for the playback side at least).
Personally, I have no doubt you will be able to achieve 97% of what's doable in this area. Thing is, so many of us are willing to pay huge amounts of money for the last 3%.
Only bit of advice I can offer is to choose components that can be easily re-purposed should you eventually choose a Naim (or other manufacturer's) integrated solution.
Good luck!
Hook
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
Good luck Tog. If you debunk a few myths on the way, so much the better!
We like de-bunking myths.
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
Good luck Tog. If you debunk a few myths on the way, so much the better!
We like de-bunking myths.
Like Naim rips are better than any one elses'?
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
quote:
Originally posted by Tog:
Tog MD TogServe Audiophile Things Inc
Careful! Company name already taken (almost)
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
Good luck Tog. If you debunk a few myths on the way, so much the better!
We like de-bunking myths.
Like Naim rips are better than any one elses'?
I'm not aware of that having been de-bunked yet–at least not as of the demos I did this past week....
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
Good luck Tog. If you debunk a few myths on the way, so much the better!
We like de-bunking myths.
Like Naim rips are better than any one elses'?
I'm not aware of that having been de-bunked yet–at least not as of the demos I did this past week....
Prove it.
Put up a link to an HDX rip of, lets say, a track of a NAIM CD, or anything that is reasonably available.
Then folk can test your claim. We could compare the HDX rip to a dBPoweramp rip of the same track, to an iTunes rip of the same track to the same track downloaded from the Naim store. The checksums of each file can easily be calculated, and compared, and the audio data in each file can also be compared.
Months ago it was shown on this forum that a Naim store download, a dBpoweramp rip and an iTunes rip produced files with the same checksum and the same audio data (allowing for drive offset).
So if you are saying an HDX does a better rip than say dBpoweramp, I challenge you to make such a rip available to prove your claim.
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
So if you are saying an HDX does a better rip than say dBpoweramp, I challenge you to make such a rip available to prove your claim.
We are talking about an individual preference here. No amount of science will bear anything out there.
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Rosewind
Togservice = Train Service / Tog = train (In Danish at least).
Good luck on your journey towards a DIY TOG-rip-nas-server, Tog.
Best wishes,
Peter
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
the "TogServe" as it is now called has reminded me how long it is since I used a Unix command line...bash bash
Why not just use a mini PC running Foobar as a UPNP server? Or one with PCI slots for a decent digital output? Or a $300 Acer and a hiface?
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
So if you are saying an HDX does a better rip than say dBpoweramp, I challenge you to make such a rip available to prove your claim.
We are talking about an individual preference here. No amount of science will bear anything out there.
We are not talking about individual preference at all. We are talking about an absolutely deterministic, objective, utterly measurable issue. Does the HDX rip different bits or the same bits as dBPoweramp? We know dBpoweramp rips the same bits in the same order as a download from the Naim store. Easy peasy. Yes or no. Can be settled by putting an HDX rip up for all to inspect.
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by pcstockton
Likes,
Oh... I thought we were talking about which rips sound better, not how they measure.
That said I agree with you that a "proper rip" is a "proper rip". You have already seen proof of other rips matching an HDX's output so you needn't request any further testing.
But I think we have seen that bits aren't always bits. There is more than meets the white paper with digital music.
Do I think my rips are any different than an HDX's? Not really. Their ripping engine is almost exactly the same as my process in EAC.
But I have learned that you cannot argue in any way, with what people feel is better and hear to be better. That is what I meant above and in the end this is all that really matters.
You can call it delusion, hallucination, lying, self-fulfilling prophecy, whatever you want. But when people say certain rips, players, codecs, buffers, output methods, spdif types, FLAC levels etc, ALL sound different, you really cant say anything about it.
There is no white paper to account for this.
-Patrick
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Tog
TogServe Day 1
Ingredients
1 MacBook Pro - early Intel Core Duo 2gb memory 100gig drive.
Vortexbox 1.6 (Fedora 14)
1 Bottle Chablis 2009 chilled
Large quantities of blind optimism
iPad to access server GUI
Learnt quite a lot today including, amongst other things never to rely on old CD RW when downloading Linux distros. After wasting an hour installing incomplete versions of VB - finally borrowed a new CD-R to get the job done.
First thing VB tells me is that the MBP is running unacceptably hot and the processor has been throttled.
Cool or rather not as you could always fry an egg on the early MBPs. So as a log term home for my server I will need something else.
Next problem is the network card. VB says it or rather "eth0" isn't installed and so I have a server that can't communicate with my airport network. Two hours of fiddling with Linux command line gives me an ip address for the server and a GUI to manage the installation. Forgot how rusty my Linux skills have become.
VB software v impressive and responsive. Now have a server that rips, tags and mirrors flac with alac files automatically. This would be truly great if I could get my Uniti to see the UPnP server.
VB is latest release so miss the fact that miniDLNA has replaced Twonky/ushare and spend ages trying to install Twonky. Then spend more time trying to get miniDLNA to say hello to Uniti.
On Sonore's site I find out that the network link should read "vortexbox.local" and bingo things start to work.
After resetting MiniDLNA to default and restarting Uniti gets to see the server and bingo streamed music.
The flac files sound great, iTunes picks up the alac songs and n-stream now shows cover art. The server is slick, quick and robust.
Now all I need to do is find a way of putting files on the server from my iMac. At the moment I can't, which is a real pain. Maybe tomorrow.
Tog
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
quote:
Originally posted by Tog:
TogServe Day 1
Ingredients
1 MacBook Pro - early Intel Core Duo 2gb memory 100gig drive.
Vortexbox 1.6 (Fedora 14)
1 Bottle Chablis 2009 chilled
Large quantities of blind optimism
iPad to access server GUI
Learnt quite a lot today including, amongst other things never to rely on old CD RW when downloading Linux distros. After wasting an hour installing incomplete versions of VB - finally borrowed a new CD-R to get the job done.
First thing VB tells me is that the MBP is running unacceptably hot and the processor has been throttled.
Cool or rather not as you could always fry an egg on the early MBPs. So as a log term home for my server I will need something else.
Next problem is the network card. VB says it or rather "eth0" isn't installed and so I have a server that can't communicate with my airport network. Two hours of fiddling with Linux command line gives me an ip address for the server and a GUI to manage the installation. Forgot how rusty my Linux skills have become.
VB software v impressive and responsive. Now have a server that rips, tags and mirrors flac with alac files automatically. This would be truly great if I could get my Uniti to see the UPnP server.
VB is latest release so miss the fact that miniDLNA has replaced Twonky/ushare and spend ages trying to install Twonky. Then spend more time trying to get miniDLNA to say hello to Uniti.
On Sonore's site I find out that the network link should read "vortexbox.local" and bingo things start to work.
After resetting MiniDLNA to default and restarting Uniti gets to see the server and bingo streamed music.
The flac files sound great, iTunes picks up the alac songs and n-stream now shows cover art. The server is slick, quick and robust.
Now all I need to do is find a way of putting files on the server from my iMac. At the moment I can't, which is a real pain. Maybe tomorrow.
Tog
My god, I'm glad I bought a UnitiServe.
Jan
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by Jan-Erik Nordoen
Tog, I wish you the best of luck with your project. But for our benefit, could you keep a log of how many hours you spend on it. It should be edifying.
Thanks,
Jan
Posted on: 19 November 2010 by garyi
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
So if you are saying an HDX does a better rip than say dBpoweramp, I challenge you to make such a rip available to prove your claim.
We are talking about an individual preference here. No amount of science will bear anything out there.
And the fact its a naim dealer.
Posted on: 20 November 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
And the fact its a naim dealer.
Why do you prefer what you own over other brands Garyi? Is it not your personal preference? Your comment implies that Naim dealers lie in the face of liking something else more?
I dont get your sinister angle.
Posted on: 20 November 2010 by garyi
Patric, all in all I prefer Macs in terms of computing. And as you know I will say that every day given the opportunity. The primary difference being I don't sell apple products.
I was actually being a bit tongue in cheek, there does not appear to be a smillie for that.
Posted on: 20 November 2010 by Tog
quote:
Originally posted by Jan-Erik Nordoen:
Tog, I wish you the best of luck with your project. But for our benefit, could you keep a log of how many hours you spend on it. It should be edifying.
Thanks,
Jan
Time spent so far about five hours on and off. To be fair the quality of the Vortexbox distro is pretty impressive. Installation is a breeze once you accept the lack of handholding by the software. After the Wagnerian installation routines of Windows and OSX the Linux approach is quite reassuring in its no nonsense.
If you exclude the time wasted whilst I tried to remember basic unix commands, opening and drinking the wine and trawling forums for advice then I could have been up and running far quicker.
To be fair I was asking for trouble using an old Macbook and a Vortexbox Appliance would have been much more plug and play. I wanted to see if I could do it for nothing.
Day 2
TogServe is running (hasn't burnt a hole in the floor)
iMac/iTunes can see TogServe and remote 2 can control iMac playing from alac mirrored files. Which is nice.
Believe my problems moving already ripped files to VB may be because I have tried to use storage/music/flac rather than storage/files/music/flac (one is write protected) or is it the other way round?
Love the update process "yum install update"
Tog
