DACs to DS - a users perspective.

Posted by: james n on 04 October 2010

Folks,

Having followed the distributed Audio threads with interest, particularly with regard to Naims new products in this area, my own personal quest for a high quality computer based / streaming solution has now come to a conclusion and with a much different end point than i ever thought it would.

This post is in no way meant to knock Naim - I still continue to use Naim products after 22 years and just wanted to add my own experiences of computer audio to the vast amount of accumulated knowledge already found in this section of the forum.

I've been a digital convert for the last 14 years after a Naim CD3.5 ousted my LP12. The idea of having my whole music collection so easily accessible has really appealed to me but early systems were either too expensive or not of good enough quality to warrant investigation. My first attempt at streaming consisted of an Airport Express into the digital input of my n-Vi (acting as a DAC) controlled via a bluetooth enabled mobile phone. Not the slickest of systems but not bad sounding either...

Move on a couple of years and i've gone the Mac 'n' Dac route with a headless Mac Mini and various DACs - the Lavry DA10 via Toslink and then to a Weiss DAC2 and finally DAC202. The Weiss DACs really come into their own with the Firewire connection. I'd come from the school of thinking that if the output is bit perfect then it can't be improved upon - unfortunately it can.

I was an early adopter of Amarra and later Pure Music. Both players improve on standard iTunes playback whilst remaining bit perfect (the Weiss DACs can do bit transparency checking so the path from Hard disk to DAC can be checked out). Further small improvements came from maxing out the memory in the Mini and replacing the internal hard drive with a 64GB SSD drive for just the OS and the music player. All the music is stored on external NAS so internal storage size wasn't an issue. Controlled via an iPod touch, this made a very good digital front end. Sound quality was superb but with a few operational niggles...

I went through a number of versions of Amarra - all sounded different. A friend (thanks Joe) put me onto Pure Vinyl which i found i prefered to Amarra. Pure Music was released which was just Pure Vinyl, with all the Vinyl bits taken out, effectively just a stripped down music player. The introduction of memory play was the key in getting this sounding so good. Individual tracks or a complete album could be loaded into memory rather than access the disk / network. Minimising what the computer is doing when playing music really has a beneficial effect on the final sound which is why i'd recommend dedicating a computer to this task (the Mini is ideal as it can run headless and is quiet - silent with the SSD). Whilst the sound produced by this setup was excellent, minor bugs made it a less than seamless experience. Using Apples remote app to control iTunes (both players integrate with iTunes as the Music database / control and just take over the audio engine), Pure Music would sometime lose sync with the iPod necessitating a restart of the software, there was a gap when loading music into memory and i always suffered a slow memory leak whereby the player would run out of virtual memory and crash. Whilst these are very minor irritations, they would always happen when friends were using the system and (for me) spoilt my enjoyment of sitting down for a couple of hours of listening to music.

So why the move to the Linn ? - The Mac / Weiss front end has been superb, no questions about that but i wanted to simplify things, get the computer out of the rack and make the operation slick and family proof.

Whilst the obvious solution would be an HDX / NDX the next step had to meet the following criteria -

Full iTunes integration. We have a number of iPods and have mostly Mac's in the house and i like using iTunes as a way of managing my music.

It must integrate with my library of AIFF files (XLD ripped), stored on a NAS. I don't want to be converting files to WAV / FLAC or re-ripping (again !) etc.

A one box player solution would be prefered. No additional boxes required in the rack.

So why not Naim ?

I like the HDX - it's a good product but after reading comments from other users, the small amount of residual noise from the internal drives put me off. The SSD solution, whilst ideal was said by a couple of the Trade members to be not so good as using the internal disks when reading from an external NAS - again not ideal.

The NDX ? - well that's an unknown quantity as of yet. i'm sure it will be good but as an early adopter of the n-Vi and all its problems i'd want an NDX that had all its bugs ironed out before i went that route. That would be too long given its present release date.

So onto the DS. I'd been put off Linn, mostly by comments on this forum over Linns electronics pedigree and the rather different presentation to Naim and so had not really considered the Linn route. The control interface on the Linn had put me off too but a couple of hours spent browsing the Linn forum showed promise with some rather nice control apps for the iPods. Linn introduced a major firmware update late last year (Cara) which added new features and better sound quality to the DS units (different dither and upsampling algorithms) and introduced an improved SMPS supply, the Dynamik, which upped the game again.time to borrow an Akurate DS from my dealer.

Out of the box the Linn is extremely lightweight after the Naim boxes - no heavy toroid to add to the weight. It's a very neat unit, well engineered and very well put together (which it should be for close to £4k). It also is silent and runs cool. I already have a wired Ethernet connection between my lounge and study so the Akurate was placed in the rack, power cable connected, Hi line plugged in to the RCA outputs and the Ethernet cable plugged in - that's all that's required on the hardware side.

In my study, i have the NAS and a 10 port Ethernet switch for the wired Ethernet connections. One of the ports runs to a wireless router and onto the cable modem for Internet and wireless connectivity. I plugged my Mac Mini in to one of the free ports on the switch and then VNC'd in from one of my other Macs to install a UPnP server on the Mini. I'd originally tried Twonky but this didn't work too well with my exisiting iTunes managed library so used Chorus DS, a free UPnP server for the DS players. Installation was painless, i pointed the server to my iTunes library on the NAS and started it running. 5 minutes later and its all done.

Next was setup of the DS. Using an application called Konfig, the network is scanned for UPnP devices - in a couple of seconds it finds my UPnP server and the Akurate DS in the lounge - you can set various settings on the DS from here from display brightness, to player name, to control of other Linn products (such as preamp volume) via the RS232 interface on the Akurate. A couple of minutes sorting the settings and all is done.

As it was just a loan of the DS, i didn't bother with any iPod software, i just used the Kinsky desktop application on my laptop to select music - its a pretty nice interface and does the job quite well. Again, it's a download from the Linn website and its quickly up and running. It can see the UPnP server, it can see the DS and so it's time to play some music.

It's very good and (IMHO) really gets to the heart of the music and majors on pulling out the rythmic structures and melodies. Its a different presentation to the DAC202, which majors on detail whilst still being very musical. The Akurate isn't so revealing but on a pure musical level it's an extremely enjoyable player and throughout the loan i found myself listening to tracks i hadn't heard for a long time and hearing a whole new perspective on some of them. Overall i found it a very engaging music maker and certainly in my system i prefered it to the Weiss which whilst extremely good, would sometimes, due i think to its very revealing nature, leave me concentrating more on the mechanics of the track playing rather than the musical content. Again all IMHO.

So some hard decisions were made, and an order placed for a black Akurate DS. The Weiss has gone to its new owner and Amarra was sold on to a nice chap in Hong Kong and he's very pleased with it.

So 3 weeks down the line and the box fresh Akurate has run in nicely and is sounding as good as the well used demo unit. An iPad has arrived and runs an app called Chorus DS HD which is a fantastic way to browse and control my music collection. Operation has been absolutely seamless. No crashes, no restarts and perfect Itunes integration.

I'll keep an eye on Naims progress in this area and will be interested in hearing the NDX and future products. - i think its a very exciting time for music what with new high quality ways of accessing it and the increasing availability of hi-res recordings. For now though. the Linn does all that i want and i'd recommend the DS products as worth a listen against the Naim alternatives.

James
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by Asenna04
James,

Glad to hear you are happy with your new direction, a move away from Naim in the frontend.

I agree with you about the fronting a full Naim digital front end and the integration you need with iTunes.

Personally, I have overcome that by using the Naim DAC (a fantastic product with all the Naim signatures sound) and froning that with a Squeezebox touch. I have the Squeezebox Server running on a Mac mini in my study conencted to a 1TB G-Drive where all the music is. I control the music with the iPeng iPhone App which worked flowlessly. And the music is streamed from the Mac mini to the Squeezebox Touch wirelessly. This suits me fine for now while I wait for naim to come up with a dedicated streamer that can fit in with my setup.

ASenna04
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by gone
Interesting report James, thanks
I've arrived at a similar point, albeit via the HDX route.
But above all, it's opened my eyes to a different way of appreciating music - the only thing I miss is the information on the CD artwork, which is not easily put in metadata, although I'm sure someone will crack that in due course.
I'm enjoying my present resting place hugely. The DS solution works seamlessly, and I didn't really have any issues setting up the system, and the iPad app is so reliable and easy to use.
And the sound ain't that bad either!
But that's not to say I don't have a weather eye open on future developments at Naim!
Cheers
John
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by js
Nice to hear you've moved to a steamer and glad you like it. Always nice to get closer to an individual's ideal. I fully understand your file concerns and though not difficult to change can be seen as an unecessary hassle. Though I haven't auditioned, the kind of 'extra' detail from the Weiss is often associated with a bit of smoothness that acts as a compressor of sorts though that description is an overstatement of what I'm trying to convey. It doesn't draw your ear away from low level info with dynamics. This is an effect I've noticed with a lot of upsamplers and parallel dacs that are actually quite nice and detailed but leave me longing for a bit more solidity and tempo.

Regarding the HDX SSD, network storage shouldn't be an issue as that's what the others are doing anyway and I believe it's not a drawback but I do understand the reasons for choosing the DS when formats and simplicity is considered. Be interested how you feel about the NSX when available, if it fits the need. Congrats and hope it serves you well, for a while. Winker Big Grin

I find it interesting that you preferred PM to Amarra. When I just compared the latest full 192 Amarra version, I clearly preferred it to PM. Different courses, I guess. Perhaps it has to do with what a particular DAC can or can't reveal.
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by Geoff P
Well done James.

You have a lot more experience of various solutions but the underlying theme was the same for me...and like you I will check back when Naim has fully debugged and stabilised its rather complex range of boxes.

I too had no difficulty getting the ADS running on my network. Chorus DS is an excellent control point for the Linns.

quote:
the only thing I miss is the information on the CD artwork, which is not easily put in metadata, although I'm sure someone will crack that in due course.

John

It is easily done in dBpoweramp ( windows only though). At the time of ripping you have freedom to find your own artwork URL from the likes of Amazon etc or even put a favorite picture in as a substitute for an obscure album. You can also edit tags at a later date via a function that appears in the file properties sub menu.

PS Audio's TagNPlay for the i-pod ( and soon if not already the i-pad) connects to their own internet database and pulls down artwork if the basic album metadate such as title, artist and track names is there.

regards
Geoff
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by Asenna04
quote:
Originally posted by Asenna04:
This suits me fine for now while I wait for naim to come up with a dedicated streamer that can fit in with my setup.
ASenna04


Just to expand more on the point I make above; I think Naim need to fix this missing link. They have to introduce a pure streamer that reads the music stored on the network (NAS, PC, Mac etc) and passes it to the DAC with the ability to control it through their iPhone App. Now I don' think this needs to be in a full width Naim box or even a half width box. What this product is doing is not very complex and a small box with wifi capability and a ethernet connection will do the trick. It just needs the Naim build quality and be able to have high quality S/PDIF output.
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by AMA
ASenna04,

I'm using Logitech Transporter with a stock remote.
I believe I can get more comfort with iTouch.

Can I run iPeng iPhone App on iTouch to operate my TP?
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by gary1 (US)
quote:
Originally posted by james n: The SSD solution, whilst ideal was said by a couple of the Trade members to be not so good as using the internal disks when reading from an external NAS - again not ideal.James


James,

JS did a comparison between the HDX (HDD) and the same music stored on a NAS and felt that the internal HDDs of the HDX did a better job.

Dave Dever has told me that the SSD (with RAM/PCI)version sounds significantly better than the original HDX HDD and all music here is stored on the NAS. We did not get into technical details, but JS hypothesizes that perhaps the SSD has some buffering capabilities which helps account for some of the differences in handling the files from the NAS better than the HDD version did.
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by Asenna04
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
ASenna04,

I'm using Logitech Transporter with a stock remote.
I believe I can get more comfort with iTouch.

Can I run iPeng iPhone App on iTouch to operate my TP?


Yes, absolutely. And it will make the experience much better since you can control the music from anywhere in the house and not having to go to the Transporter to see what you are controlling.

I actually also had the Transporter before I had got the Naim DAC, but I returned it to Logitech and got a full credit for it and a big discount on the Touch when it was to be released (it was not released at that point). The Touch has been just as good as a streamer and does not need a shelf. I have placed it at the bottom of the Hi-Fi rack where I can not see it from most places in the listerning room (I don't need to).

ASenna04
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
seeking for the "best" gear is quite silly as there are so many lateral options so that only a personal taste can be a judge.
Very wise words
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by Graham Russell
Great write up James. I've arrived at a similar end point after a few years of streaming from Sonos and home built silent PCs.

The LINN DS range are single box solutions. The user is required to manage the ripping, storage an backup of their music. Which for some (possibly most non-techie) users is a real challenge.

I'm now using a Klimax DS and love it. Musicality through 552/500 is great. Ease of use with Chorus on iPad is awesome Smile I've gone from 4 large black boxes to one smaller one Big Grin

Graham
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by gone
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
quote:
the only thing I miss is the information on the CD artwork, which is not easily put in metadata, although I'm sure someone will crack that in due course.

John

It is easily done in dBpoweramp ( windows only though). At the time of ripping you have freedom to find your own artwork URL from the likes of Amazon etc or even put a favorite picture in as a substitute for an obscure album. You can also edit tags at a later date via a function that appears in the file properties sub menu.



Yes Geoff, but what I really had in mind was lyrics, production info, musicians, liner notes, inside artwork etc. Wouldn't it be nice if your chosen ripping software could pick all that up? Life's too short to do it yourself, even if the metadata fields are available.

With the real estate of the iPad display, it would be almost like holding an LP again. Or have I answered my own question? Roll Eyes <<leans over to LP12, puts on Al Di's Dream Theme, and browses album art and analogue metadata>>
Posted on: 04 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
I've gone from 4 large black boxes to one smaller one


What were the other two boxes (assuming 2 were 555/555ps)?
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by Graham Russell
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
I've gone from 4 large black boxes to one smaller one


What were the other two boxes (assuming 2 were 555/555ps)?

Naim DAC
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by Geoff P
quote:
Yes Geoff, but what I really had in mind was lyrics, production info, musicians, liner notes, inside artwork etc. Wouldn't it be nice if your chosen ripping software could pick all that up? Life's too short to do it yourself, even if the metadata fields are available.

With the real estate of the iPad display, it would be almost like holding an LP again. Or have I answered my own question? <<leans over to LP12, puts on Al Di's Dream Theme, and browses album art and analogue metadata>>

Ah John don't want much do we?

...just keep all the booklets from your ripped CD's (TOO LATE????) and file them where you used to store the jewel boxes then you can have the analog joy of finding the booklet when you start up a CD Eek

.....NO? well then I guess you will have to just accept audio Shangrila is beyond the reach of mere mortals.

Would be nice though.

regards
geoff
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by james n
quote:
I fondly remember our starting out days at about the same time on this distributed audio scene, we both had n-Vi's and discovered that actually you could get very good results from a computer hook-up. Kind of eye-opening at the time.


Ah yes - after your thoughts on driving the n-Vi with a Mac, i remembered dragging my Powermac into the lounge for a trial - the rest is history Big Grin



James
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
but what I really had in mind was lyrics, production info, musicians, liner notes, inside artwork

Me too!!!

I scan all of the inside art/lyrics, front and back of booklet and even the CD itself. Then name these items in a static manner (front.jpg, back.jpg, 1-2.jpg, etc) then tell Foobar what to look for.

I have a full screen (not unlike JRMC Theater View) that scrolls through my images along with those found at LastFM.

Of course I can simply click through them in Foobar as well.

Really you can do anything, just dont rely on Apple, Linn or Naim to do that shite for you.

-Patrick
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
I've gone from 4 large black boxes to one smaller one Big Grin


Yes.... But you lost the ability to:
1) Play CDs on one of the best CDPs ever.
2) Run other digital outputs through your reference DAC (whether Linn or Naim)
3) Play music without a server and network.
4) Upgrade the DAC

It seems like those 4 boxes did something more than this one.... except they didnt sound better Frown

-Patrick

-Patrick
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
It seems like those 4 boxes did something more than this one.... except they didnt sound better

Patrick, I can noway accept that my nDAC/XPS doesn't sound better than ADS.
I tested NAD-M5->nDAC/XPS against KDS several times and although they sound very different I would say these products are in the same SQ category. I'm sure better (than NAD-M5) transport will do a better job for nDAC. My friend still prefers KDS -- but this is more about taste rather than general qualities (like resolution, imaging, microdynamics etc.)

Try to listen for bass articulation and weight through nDAC/XPS and through KDS (or ADS) -- you will be amazed!
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by Geoff P
Yes.... But you lost the ability to:
1) Play CDs on one of the best CDPs ever....so now playing on one of the best DACs instead
2) Run other digital outputs through your reference DAC (whether Linn or Naim).....Don't have any that warrant better quality than my Home theatre receiver
3) Play music without a server and network.....FM radio does a pretty good job for me and if Iam really desperate I can reach for the audio out on my computer via WASAPI
4) Upgrade the DAC.....trade up rather than forking out for more boxes
Cool

quote:
Try to listen for bass articulation and weight through nDAC/XPS and through KDS (or ADS) -- you will be amazed
Done it.... was not amazed.

regards
geoff
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
Done it.... was not amazed.

regards
geoff

Hi, Geoff! It's strange -- in my tests nDAC/XPS was more punchy, better transients and bass got more weight than KDS. Very audible difference. Meanwhile NDAC/XPS was more forward and less soft -- very typical Naim sound.
We listened through very resolving SET amplifier.
This was the main upset for me as the rest of KDS sound was exemplar and I was thinking to buy one.
The KDS was with Dynamik. Could it be that Linn produces different KDS packages?
Geoff -- what transport did you use for nDAC in your tests?
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by james n
quote:
We listened through very resolving SET amplifier.
This was the main upset for me as the rest of KDS sound was exemplar and I was thinking to buy one.


Call me daft but it miight be worth listening to it in your own system rather than a SET based system ?

James
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by Nero:
What I really had in mind was lyrics, production info, musicians, liner notes, inside artwork etc. Wouldn't it be nice if your chosen ripping software could pick all that up? Life's too short to do it yourself, even if the metadata fields are available.




Think this does what you want - simply add nDAC/555PS
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
Call me daft but it miight be worth listening to it in your own system rather than a SET based system ?

james, I came from tubes and I used to hate SS sound until the day I listened for Naim. That's how I was converted. Especially I was hooked up with the unique option to keep my system constantly ON. But I still value SETs more than 252/300 in terms of delicacy and resolution and they are more than good to test the source qualities.

BTW about year ago I have tested HDX vs KDS in all-Naim system and post my findings here on the forum: and KDS was way better in all departments.
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by Gary S.
James

Great write up and I'm so pleased you are enjoying your ADS.

As you know I've had mine for about 2 years now and apart from a few technical hitches it has performed impecably.

The technical hitches I should hasten to add have been nothing to do with Linn, the first major problem resulted from an early version of the Twonky software which jammed up our ReadyNas with multiple log files. Subsequently, we've had a few network niggles and recently problems with the NAS. 4 weeks ago, we had a disk failure and had to buy a replacement disk - fortunately it was just a simple matter of dropping the new disk in and waiting for the NAS to back itself up - in the mean time it functioned fine on one disk so I wasn't without music. Anyway, I came home from work tonight and would you believe it, the other disk has now failed! I don't know how long these disks should last, but we've had the NAS since Sept 08, so 2 years?

We also had a rather anoying episode recently when I asked my dealer to demonstrate the Dynamic upgrade (mine's currently the original PS). My dealer came to our house to re-install our nsub after it's recent repairs and bought with him an ADS with Dynamic for me to dem - after a few tracks I told him to just get on and fit one. He had anticipated this and had bought one with him - he then went about setting up a mobile workshop in our dining room, complete with antistatic mat etc and the old power supply was quickly removed. He then went to install the new PS and found to his frustration that Linn had sent a standard power supply boxed as a Dynamic - you wouldn't believe it! I watched him slit the seal on the box which was all marked Dynamic and inside was a standard power supply Frown - needless to say he wasn't happy. So I'm now waiting until he's next passing my way.

Glad to see there are a few others on here also enjoying their Linn DS's, at least I don't now feel quite the pariah I did two years ago Smile

Gary
Posted on: 05 October 2010 by Asenna04
quote:
Originally posted by ROTF:



Think this does what you want - simply add nDAC/555PS


ROTF, what is this? It look amazing. Is the slot at the bottom for CDs?

ASenna04