DACs to DS - a users perspective.

Posted by: james n on 04 October 2010

Folks,

Having followed the distributed Audio threads with interest, particularly with regard to Naims new products in this area, my own personal quest for a high quality computer based / streaming solution has now come to a conclusion and with a much different end point than i ever thought it would.

This post is in no way meant to knock Naim - I still continue to use Naim products after 22 years and just wanted to add my own experiences of computer audio to the vast amount of accumulated knowledge already found in this section of the forum.

I've been a digital convert for the last 14 years after a Naim CD3.5 ousted my LP12. The idea of having my whole music collection so easily accessible has really appealed to me but early systems were either too expensive or not of good enough quality to warrant investigation. My first attempt at streaming consisted of an Airport Express into the digital input of my n-Vi (acting as a DAC) controlled via a bluetooth enabled mobile phone. Not the slickest of systems but not bad sounding either...

Move on a couple of years and i've gone the Mac 'n' Dac route with a headless Mac Mini and various DACs - the Lavry DA10 via Toslink and then to a Weiss DAC2 and finally DAC202. The Weiss DACs really come into their own with the Firewire connection. I'd come from the school of thinking that if the output is bit perfect then it can't be improved upon - unfortunately it can.

I was an early adopter of Amarra and later Pure Music. Both players improve on standard iTunes playback whilst remaining bit perfect (the Weiss DACs can do bit transparency checking so the path from Hard disk to DAC can be checked out). Further small improvements came from maxing out the memory in the Mini and replacing the internal hard drive with a 64GB SSD drive for just the OS and the music player. All the music is stored on external NAS so internal storage size wasn't an issue. Controlled via an iPod touch, this made a very good digital front end. Sound quality was superb but with a few operational niggles...

I went through a number of versions of Amarra - all sounded different. A friend (thanks Joe) put me onto Pure Vinyl which i found i prefered to Amarra. Pure Music was released which was just Pure Vinyl, with all the Vinyl bits taken out, effectively just a stripped down music player. The introduction of memory play was the key in getting this sounding so good. Individual tracks or a complete album could be loaded into memory rather than access the disk / network. Minimising what the computer is doing when playing music really has a beneficial effect on the final sound which is why i'd recommend dedicating a computer to this task (the Mini is ideal as it can run headless and is quiet - silent with the SSD). Whilst the sound produced by this setup was excellent, minor bugs made it a less than seamless experience. Using Apples remote app to control iTunes (both players integrate with iTunes as the Music database / control and just take over the audio engine), Pure Music would sometime lose sync with the iPod necessitating a restart of the software, there was a gap when loading music into memory and i always suffered a slow memory leak whereby the player would run out of virtual memory and crash. Whilst these are very minor irritations, they would always happen when friends were using the system and (for me) spoilt my enjoyment of sitting down for a couple of hours of listening to music.

So why the move to the Linn ? - The Mac / Weiss front end has been superb, no questions about that but i wanted to simplify things, get the computer out of the rack and make the operation slick and family proof.

Whilst the obvious solution would be an HDX / NDX the next step had to meet the following criteria -

Full iTunes integration. We have a number of iPods and have mostly Mac's in the house and i like using iTunes as a way of managing my music.

It must integrate with my library of AIFF files (XLD ripped), stored on a NAS. I don't want to be converting files to WAV / FLAC or re-ripping (again !) etc.

A one box player solution would be prefered. No additional boxes required in the rack.

So why not Naim ?

I like the HDX - it's a good product but after reading comments from other users, the small amount of residual noise from the internal drives put me off. The SSD solution, whilst ideal was said by a couple of the Trade members to be not so good as using the internal disks when reading from an external NAS - again not ideal.

The NDX ? - well that's an unknown quantity as of yet. i'm sure it will be good but as an early adopter of the n-Vi and all its problems i'd want an NDX that had all its bugs ironed out before i went that route. That would be too long given its present release date.

So onto the DS. I'd been put off Linn, mostly by comments on this forum over Linns electronics pedigree and the rather different presentation to Naim and so had not really considered the Linn route. The control interface on the Linn had put me off too but a couple of hours spent browsing the Linn forum showed promise with some rather nice control apps for the iPods. Linn introduced a major firmware update late last year (Cara) which added new features and better sound quality to the DS units (different dither and upsampling algorithms) and introduced an improved SMPS supply, the Dynamik, which upped the game again.time to borrow an Akurate DS from my dealer.

Out of the box the Linn is extremely lightweight after the Naim boxes - no heavy toroid to add to the weight. It's a very neat unit, well engineered and very well put together (which it should be for close to £4k). It also is silent and runs cool. I already have a wired Ethernet connection between my lounge and study so the Akurate was placed in the rack, power cable connected, Hi line plugged in to the RCA outputs and the Ethernet cable plugged in - that's all that's required on the hardware side.

In my study, i have the NAS and a 10 port Ethernet switch for the wired Ethernet connections. One of the ports runs to a wireless router and onto the cable modem for Internet and wireless connectivity. I plugged my Mac Mini in to one of the free ports on the switch and then VNC'd in from one of my other Macs to install a UPnP server on the Mini. I'd originally tried Twonky but this didn't work too well with my exisiting iTunes managed library so used Chorus DS, a free UPnP server for the DS players. Installation was painless, i pointed the server to my iTunes library on the NAS and started it running. 5 minutes later and its all done.

Next was setup of the DS. Using an application called Konfig, the network is scanned for UPnP devices - in a couple of seconds it finds my UPnP server and the Akurate DS in the lounge - you can set various settings on the DS from here from display brightness, to player name, to control of other Linn products (such as preamp volume) via the RS232 interface on the Akurate. A couple of minutes sorting the settings and all is done.

As it was just a loan of the DS, i didn't bother with any iPod software, i just used the Kinsky desktop application on my laptop to select music - its a pretty nice interface and does the job quite well. Again, it's a download from the Linn website and its quickly up and running. It can see the UPnP server, it can see the DS and so it's time to play some music.

It's very good and (IMHO) really gets to the heart of the music and majors on pulling out the rythmic structures and melodies. Its a different presentation to the DAC202, which majors on detail whilst still being very musical. The Akurate isn't so revealing but on a pure musical level it's an extremely enjoyable player and throughout the loan i found myself listening to tracks i hadn't heard for a long time and hearing a whole new perspective on some of them. Overall i found it a very engaging music maker and certainly in my system i prefered it to the Weiss which whilst extremely good, would sometimes, due i think to its very revealing nature, leave me concentrating more on the mechanics of the track playing rather than the musical content. Again all IMHO.

So some hard decisions were made, and an order placed for a black Akurate DS. The Weiss has gone to its new owner and Amarra was sold on to a nice chap in Hong Kong and he's very pleased with it.

So 3 weeks down the line and the box fresh Akurate has run in nicely and is sounding as good as the well used demo unit. An iPad has arrived and runs an app called Chorus DS HD which is a fantastic way to browse and control my music collection. Operation has been absolutely seamless. No crashes, no restarts and perfect Itunes integration.

I'll keep an eye on Naims progress in this area and will be interested in hearing the NDX and future products. - i think its a very exciting time for music what with new high quality ways of accessing it and the increasing availability of hi-res recordings. For now though. the Linn does all that i want and i'd recommend the DS products as worth a listen against the Naim alternatives.

James
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Patrick, he mentioned in his post that he was carrying USB stick...

Right, I read that, but he didnt mention if that was used directly into the DAC.

Nero,

So the source versus the KDS that day was HDX>nDAC/PSU. All files sourced from the NAS in both set-ups. I would say that is a pretty fair comparison.

So for you, the lack of function was overridden by the superior SQ of the Klimax. Sounds good to me. If you dont need ripping, local storage, UPNP serving, CD replay, touch screen or other digital inputs, the KDS seems like a good option.

But it is as good as an HDX-SSD serving files to an NDX/555ps>nDAC/555ps, with 5 Powerlines?
Kidding of course.... somewhat Winker

Do you think that if SQ were equal, and price was similar, the Naim route has some attractive options?

-Patrick
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
But I can also understand why someone could think the opposite - I look for certain things in a system, you might look for others

Here is he point where we come back to the old story of Naim vs Linn presentation.
I like Linn sources -- just as much as Naim sources. I never considered Linn as "worse" than Naim -- but rather as a different sound presentation. But I can't remember a single case in the past when Linn amplification could enjoy me in the same way as Naim. And this difference is much bigger than the one between KDS and nDAC Smile Meanwhile many people prefer Linn amplification because they look for the other things than me.

BTW don't you think that nDAC will look funny and cumbersome in an all-Linn system? I'm not even sure someone tried it. While KDS will definitely shine with Naim amplification. Perhaps it means something ....
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by gone
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton
Do you think that if SQ were equal, and price was similar, the Naim route has some attractive options?

-Patrick


Hmm, now that's an interesting question, coloured by a bit of history.
I like Naim stuff. I bought my first Naim in 1982. I've never had any major reason to look too far or wide.
But somehow I was 'allowed' to look around, and I found alternatives, although there are few manufacturers who take seriously what I take seriously, and stick around for any length of time.
Of course the Naim solution has attractions. I like the HDX. I know you're not convinced, but that's because it offers things you don't need. The HDX/555PS/DAC is a stonking digital source. Really good.
But I got a bit tired of having to add boxes to get to where I want to be. KISS. The DS approach should be explored.
It works for me
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by Asenna04
quote:

BTW don't you think that nDAC will look funny and cumbersome in an all-Linn system? I'm not even sure someone tried it. While KDS will definitely shine with Naim amplification. Perhaps it means something ....


Yes, Naim has got everything spot on, they just need to engineer a KDS like source. Its fine if it utilizes the 555PS since separate and clean PS is how Niam do it.

ASenna04
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by gone
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
quote:
But I can also understand why someone could think the opposite - I look for certain things in a system, you might look for others

Here is he point where we come back to the old story of Naim vs Linn presentation.
I like Linn sources -- just as much as Naim sources. I never considered Linn as "worse" than Naim -- but rather as a different sound presentation. But I can't remember a single case in the past when Linn amplification could enjoy me in the same way as Naim. And this difference is much bigger than the one between KDS and nDAC Smile Meanwhile many people prefer Linn amplification because they look for the other things than me.

BTW don't you think that nDAC will look funny and cumbersome in an all-Linn system? I'm not even sure someone tried it. While KDS will definitely shine with Naim amplification. Perhaps it means something ....


Well, let's be clear. I don't use Naim power amplification at the moment. That's taken care of by ATC, so maybe a KDS system with a Solo or Chakra would be horrid. I can't comment. But the KDS sounded good with 552/300. Does that mean that any source would sound good to you?

If the KDS had a digital output, I would certainly be interested in hearing an nDAC in the system. I still have it.
Burr-Brown vs Wolfson anyone? I guess that's a comparison that should have been done in Linn or Naim R&D?
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by gone
quote:
Originally posted by Asenna04:
quote:

BTW don't you think that nDAC will look funny and cumbersome in an all-Linn system? I'm not even sure someone tried it. While KDS will definitely shine with Naim amplification. Perhaps it means something ....


Yes, Naim has got everything spot on, they just need to engineer a KDS like source. Its fine if it utilizes the 555PS since separate and clean PS is how Niam do it.

ASenna04


By implication, Linn do it integrated and dirty. Come on, SMPS is just one way of doing power supplies. Linear toroids is just another. No one has absolute right on their side. As long as it is engineered correctly.
Heaven forbid, I've got power amps built-in to my speakers. That must be wrong, surely?
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
I know you're not convinced,


It isn't a matter of convincing. I simply wanted a DAC that would bring a Naim source to my kit. The DAC is perfect for me.

For others, and with much deeper pockets, the ADS and KDS could be the one.

-Patrick
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by Tog
"If you give people choice you also hand them the tools for the perfect argument"

When hifi met computers things got complicated for everyone especially quality brands like Naim and Linn. They were always going to approach things differently and they can't make everyone happy.

You listen, you look; you make a choice.


Tog
Posted on: 06 October 2010 by Alamanka
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Afterall this is an audiophile forum -- not "feature-phile" forum.


So I DO think it is all about features.
[...]
At the end of the day it will all come down to functionality and SQ.

-Patrick



If this was about sound quality, we could simply use our 1976 Thorens turntables.
There would be no need for computers, streamers and DAC.

Patrick is right: at the end of the day, it is about functionality, provided we do not lose (too much) in sound quality.
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
If this was about sound quality, we could simply use our 1976 Thorens turntables.

That's what a big share of forum members is doing -- as I can see it from their profiles.
My profile enlists 1989 LP12 which I use daily. The problem of TT is not in SQ -- it's about availability of music. The digital stock is growing and the majority of it is not available in LP.
My dig collection is 10 times bigger than LP collection. That's why I use digital sources.

quote:
Patrick is right: at the end of the day, it is about functionality, provided we do not lose (too much) in sound quality.

It's good that you guys are still in minority Smile Otherwise I will leave this forum the next day.
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by Frank Abela
In my view, the whole computer/streaming paradigm is still so complicated that it has put me right off. I see all this talk about the Mac Mini and adding a HiFace and the various uPnP servers that can be used as well as the various ripping technologies...it's too bloody complicated. I just want to go to my collection, choose a piece of music and play it...simplez.

True, the Naim HDX/Unitiserve have greatly reduced the complexity of the ripping part of the equation and since they stream that's quite easy too, although I find the whole album search/etc paradigm a real PITA. And I don't own an iPod Touch nor iPad - and don't want to own one either thanks. I have an android phone which suits me better and is more open than that closed Apple piece of junk which doesn't even support Java nor flash (and never will apparently).

Just too complicated for no improvement with 16/44.1 material, and most times it's worse than an equivalently priced CD player. As for high res, that could be an improvement, but it introduces all kinds of other issues such as its niche market status, only adopted by a few relatively small labels (sorry Naim), and to do with streaming wirelessly in the home. I am not ripping apart my 1929 house to put ethernet everywhere!

I just see this as so much bonkers. (Must be a luddite...)

As for the Linn DS players, sorry but every time I hear Linn electronics I hear a very organized and authoritative presentation that dictates the way the music sounds. I can appreciate why some people might like it but it's not got that loose rhythmic swing of the Naim presentation.
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by james n
quote:
I just want to go to my collection, choose a piece of music and play it...simplez.


Yep - that's what it does. Given your background listed in your profile i'm suprised at the luddite (your words) view...

James
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
So why hasn't it happened yet?

Allen, I think it's a good idea to keep ripping machine and linear PS away from the main streamer.
But why didn't they build nDAC in NDX is enigma...

I don't believe in technical issues -- it's definitely a commercially-driven policy.
Naim keeps releasing a growing number of various compu-boxes which functionality is broadly redundant and not clear to many music lovers.
It seems that modern Naim's strategy is to rival Logitech-type companies -- not audiophiles.
They give a good opportunity for playing the permutations/settings for PC-lovers which are possibly 1% of music lovers. Not a big issue for me as I'm familiar with PC world but when I'm off the duties I just want to press the button and listen for the music with the best SQ possible.

Their amps are still the best ....
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by jlarsson
I love the HDX which is all in one box (+NAS in my case) and no external computers etc. required.

HDX-SSD/DAC/XPS2 will be a three-box player (four with the NAS in the attic) but it still is lower box-count than with a Linn solution (when you add up the required computer etc.). Besides I dont care much for the Linn-sound.

The new very small AppleTV (into the DAC) with an iPad will add movies, spotify, internet radio, podcasts and so on for a very low cost.

It doesnt need to be complicated.

On the other hand I dont see why anyone would need to switch from CD-player to hard-disk. The only way to purchase lossless audio is on CD anyway. Just different ways to stream the same bits.
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by Frank Abela
quote:
Originally posted by james n:
Yep - that's what it does. Given your background listed in your profile i'm suprised at the luddite (your words) view...

James


Indeed James, you'd think so, but the fact is the last thing I want to be doing is mucking about with computers at home after a day mucking about with computers at work. I just want to chill and play my music with nary a worry about how it works...
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by AMA
Hi, Allen -- sorry for off-topic -- how do you find Ovators after burn-in?
Especially in bass department?
And how do they image (in depth and instrument localization)?
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by james n
quote:
nary a worry about how it works...


Apple and Linn it is then Big Grin

Fair point Smile

James
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Naim could very easily put all these functions in 1 or 2 boxes (incl. PSU), think an amalgamation of HDX and NDX with XPS2/555PS. Add into that box a superb DAC of NDAC quality or above (in a quiet room) and you have an absolute winner that does just about everything.

So why hasn't it happened yet? Roll Eyes


I am NOT picking a fight here....

Maybe it hasn't happened yet because it is impossible. Maybe they started with the Naim DAC and realized its performance was compromised with so many other bits inside.

Or maybe it just isn't feasible at the price point they were shooting for with the NDX.

I am guessing that a networked DAC on par with the Naim DAC will cost more than the NDX+nDAC.

It doesn't seem like the NDX is the final offering in this line. Just like the Ovators, they are probably starting in the middle of the range.

But once again, people are getting hung up SOLELY on box count. Forget the box count and accept that this it is Naim's approach to separate things for best sound quality. Clearly Naim is into the single box approach (SN, Uniti, Qute) But also clearly this is NOT how Naim approaches the ultimate in SQ.

The multiple box approach by Naim is nothing new, and not exclusive to the digital side of things.

All of the high end Naim products are multiple boxes, or require an external PSU.

With Naim you at least know that the multiple box solution will bring advatages to the table. Also we know that the Naim integrateds and All-In-Ones don't quote reach the levels of the separate brothers. Basically can can pick your poison (and budget).

But this begs the question of how much a better a KDS would be if they were three separate boxes (Dac, UPNP Streamer, PSU). No one will ever know....

I wonder though.... Do KDS/ADS owners think there is NO WAY there boxes could be improved upon? Just because they have no upgrade path does not mean one couldn't exist.

-Patrick
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by Alamanka
I apologize in advance for my question as I am not familiar with Linn products.

How are Linn DS products different from the upcoming Naim NDX?

Is this not the same set of features?

What about the price points?
I red an article mentioning $20,000 for the Klimax. What is the ballpark number for the other ones: Akurate and Majik?

Thanks
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
I only get 'hung-up' on box count if there is an unnecessary duplication of components inside those boxes.


That duplication isn't exclusive to CDX2s. It exists when using a NAPSC and any Cap on my 102 with anything lower than a NAP250. It exists for powered inputs on pre's when using a cap with the Superline/Headline/Stagelines. It exists with cables for anyone using a Hiline, and mains cables for Powerline users, Supernaits with nDACS, Qute's as streamers only into a pre/power setup, HDX with EAC users etc... The list goes on and on. Redundancy is almost guaranteed with any arrangement other than the Uniti series.

But I bet you can reduce the redundancy to a minimum if it is really unsettling.

A Serve>Naim DAC doesn't present any duplication of features in and of themselves.

HDX>Naim DAC only brings an unneeded DAC chip and analog output.

Now Serve/HDX>NDX>nDAC does start accumulating some more unused features but I am guessing this is acceptable and preferable when you consider this is approaching a Naimnet multi-room type solution.

If the HDX didn't have analog output it couldn't be used for local playback in the main system.

I think we still need to view these products in the light of a "system".

Imagine an HDX>nDAC/555ps in your main 500 kit. Then throw a bare NDX into your study where you have your lowly 202/200. In your bedroom, porch and kitchen you can use Qutes and/or Unitis. All files served up by the HDX, controllable in numerous ways.

I like this idea of expandability. The Naim DAC can move around to be used with any of them or none of them. Even though I have little use for full house streaming and multiple listening areas, I like that it can be done. I am planning on using my Naim DAC for a while.

-Patrick
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by Tog
In the UK the Majik DSi is around £2500 which is about £500 more than the Uniti ( although if you know your Naim dealer well they will look after you.) I looked at both but in terms of features and sound it was game set and match to the Naim.

The DSi is fine ... Just don't expect it to survive a direct comparison with the Uniti.
The Akurate and Klimax are just stupidly expensive IMO

Tog
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
How are Linn DS products different from the upcoming Naim NDX?


Just a very few are:

- NDX has digital inputs to use with other sources than ethernet.
- NDX has digital outputs for use with a better DAC of any make.
- NDX has internet radio
- NDX has FM radio (optional)
- iPod/Phone connectivity a la the nDAC (pulls digital from iSources)
- It has front panel control
- Just like the HDX you can directly connect a USB hard drive to it. NO computer, NAS or router needed.

I am sure there are many more than just those, but these differences really stand out.

-Patrick
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by David Dever
quote:
How are Linn DS products different from the upcoming Naim NDX?

Is this not the same set of features?

NDX additionally has DAC inputs, built-in internet radio, USB file playback, iPod connectivity and control, and power supply upgrade paths.
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by gone
err, DS has (rather good) internet radio
Posted on: 07 October 2010 by AMA
quote:
The Akurate and Klimax are just stupidly expensive IMO

They both cost the same as the other sources of corresponding SQ.
Besides ADS is extremely good VFM.
Linn fans put KDS ahead of much more expensive sources like Scarlatti and CD555.