Beefing up the vinyl
Posted by: Mick P on 24 June 2002
Chaps
My vinyl system comprises of a restored Garrard 401 mounted in a solid wood American ash Loricraft plinth. The arm is a Rega RB300 with a Dynavector 17D2 MK11 cartridge.
Even as it stands it sounds good but I want to improve it.
There seems to be a feeling (albeit unsubstantiated)that the Aro and Garrard do not go together well. I cannot comment because I have never heard it. The Garrard uses 4 squash balls to suspend the platter base and the folk lore is that this does not suit the Aro.
Therefore my inclination is to aim for a SME 1V. However, I have also heard that I might be better off spending the money on a Loricraft PSU and then buying the arm afterwards.
Therefore my questions are :-
1. Do these PSU's really improve the sound.
2. How does the Rega RB900 or 1000 compare to the SME or do you think the Aro is a better bet.
Many thanks
Mick
My vinyl system comprises of a restored Garrard 401 mounted in a solid wood American ash Loricraft plinth. The arm is a Rega RB300 with a Dynavector 17D2 MK11 cartridge.
Even as it stands it sounds good but I want to improve it.
There seems to be a feeling (albeit unsubstantiated)that the Aro and Garrard do not go together well. I cannot comment because I have never heard it. The Garrard uses 4 squash balls to suspend the platter base and the folk lore is that this does not suit the Aro.
Therefore my inclination is to aim for a SME 1V. However, I have also heard that I might be better off spending the money on a Loricraft PSU and then buying the arm afterwards.
Therefore my questions are :-
1. Do these PSU's really improve the sound.
2. How does the Rega RB900 or 1000 compare to the SME or do you think the Aro is a better bet.
Many thanks
Mick
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Malcolm Davey
Mick
I have heard varous Mitchells where the beefed up power supply was added and it made a major difference (I realise you are using v. good supports, this demo was done on old SO stuff).
Heard 900 and ARO preferred the ARO (which I have). I guess its horses for courses but I am sure you will be a ble to 'borrow' for home demo.
Enjoy!
I have heard varous Mitchells where the beefed up power supply was added and it made a major difference (I realise you are using v. good supports, this demo was done on old SO stuff).
Heard 900 and ARO preferred the ARO (which I have). I guess its horses for courses but I am sure you will be a ble to 'borrow' for home demo.
Enjoy!
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by John C
Surely a man of your tatse and refinement should simply cut to the chase an get one of these beauties?
a
aPosted on: 24 June 2002 by Peter Stockwell
Mick,
I have a 401 and in a similiar position to you. My Garrard has a Bastin Wave mechanic power supply. You can get them for about 450 GBP from Walrus in London, you'd better check to make sure the ones they sell are fully suitable for a Garrard as they are sold for use with Nottingham Analogue TTs.
What a Power supply will do for your Garrard ?. First of all, the idea is to reduce the voltage supplied to the bare minimum to keep turning. You can then disengage the 'brake' that is normally used for setting the right speed, this reduces the vibration fed into the plinth by the motor to a minimum. The result is a solidification of the already coherent sound of the Garrard. The strobe will no longer light up and you'll need some kind of Strobe light to set the right speed.
My Garrard might be unusual, because it needs at least 30 minutes for the speed to stabilise, I found that with no power supply it stabilised quicker. i.e. As it warms up, it needs less voltage to turn at the correct speed, and really sounds magnificient after several hours of continuous running. I've also found it likes an ambient temperature of some 25 degrees, unlike me!
Some aficionados of Tonearms and Garrards suggest a tonearm with a lighter touch is a good match with a Garrard and suggest unipivot designs. OTOH a SME IV is something of a classic match, you might be interested in the price you can get from this source. Juki
A friend bought a cartridge from this chap and was happy with the service.
I would buy a Power Supply then Tone arm then cartridge.
Peter
I have a 401 and in a similiar position to you. My Garrard has a Bastin Wave mechanic power supply. You can get them for about 450 GBP from Walrus in London, you'd better check to make sure the ones they sell are fully suitable for a Garrard as they are sold for use with Nottingham Analogue TTs.
What a Power supply will do for your Garrard ?. First of all, the idea is to reduce the voltage supplied to the bare minimum to keep turning. You can then disengage the 'brake' that is normally used for setting the right speed, this reduces the vibration fed into the plinth by the motor to a minimum. The result is a solidification of the already coherent sound of the Garrard. The strobe will no longer light up and you'll need some kind of Strobe light to set the right speed.
My Garrard might be unusual, because it needs at least 30 minutes for the speed to stabilise, I found that with no power supply it stabilised quicker. i.e. As it warms up, it needs less voltage to turn at the correct speed, and really sounds magnificient after several hours of continuous running. I've also found it likes an ambient temperature of some 25 degrees, unlike me!
Some aficionados of Tonearms and Garrards suggest a tonearm with a lighter touch is a good match with a Garrard and suggest unipivot designs. OTOH a SME IV is something of a classic match, you might be interested in the price you can get from this source. Juki
A friend bought a cartridge from this chap and was happy with the service.
I would buy a Power Supply then Tone arm then cartridge.
Peter
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Tony L
quote:
2. How does the Rega RB900 or 1000 compare to the SME or do you think the Aro is a better bet.
As an affordable option (sorry Mick, I know how much you hate owning affordable things
) consider getting the RB300 the full Origin Live treatment, i.e. the structural mod and rewire. These mods definitely improve it a lot, and means there is less fiddling about than actually changing arm as it obviously just plonks back into the same hole (SME is a different mount). Check out http://www.originlive.com for details. I must admit to having been far less than impressed with the SMEs I have heard, I find any deck to which they are fitted to sound a bit on the un-groovy side, though have not heard one with a 401 which is allegedly a good match. I get the impression the Aro is a non-starter outside of a LP12 or Phonosophie.There are obviously many other options such as the Morch range and the strange but allegedly excellent RS Labs RS-A1 which just sits on the plinth (there is some discussion about this arm here: http://pub65.ezboard.com/fpinkfishmediafrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=6.topic&start=1&stop=20 ). The Nottingham Analogue arms might be well worth investigating too.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by Nick:
2. Support the plinth on either Final Daruma IIIs or Aurios (Peter Stockwell disagrees with this step, finding it bloated the bass on his 401)
Nick
Nick,
Bloated is not the right term, it made the bass overpowering, but it was solid and tuneful ... quite enjoyable, but not 'natural' to my ears. can't remember if I had the PSU at that point or not.
Oh, and the OL300 is a stonking tonearm works great on my mate's Clearaudio Solution with a Kontrapunkt A.
Peter
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Mick P
Chaps
Thanks for the replies...much appreciated.
Malcom / Paul
My first inclination is to go for an Aro, but I believe that it was designed for suspended TT's such as the LP12. The Loricraft plinth has a small platform in each corner which holds a squash ball, on which the Platter table is mounted. Loricraft have experimented with loads of different type of suspension and found that the squash balls sounded the best. This by all accounts does not flatter the Aro. Loricraft are always changing their mind as to what the best arm is, but their publicity photos nearly always feature a SME V.
John...Terry Sullivan will tell you that a restored 301 or 401 sounds the same as a 501, very strange but true.
Tony / Nick
I have heard good things about OL and also similar ravings about a company called incognito. Nigel (no 2 guy at Loricrafts favours a RB300 modified by Incognito, but he is prone to rapid change of mind. I think he loves the sound of the last arm he played, if you see what I mean.
Nigel reckons that the OL or incognito modified RB300 is the overall winner whilst Terry reckons the SME 1V gives the best sound. Neither of them like the Aro on a Garrard but rave about it on a LP12.
I am just about to order a 36" wide TV,now that Mrs Mick has chosen what she wants, so I will not be buying the arm until next month at least.
My main problem is that its not easy demming an arm on a Garrard.
Loricraft manufacture their own PSU's, one called a Baretta aimed at the 301/401 and retails at £450.00 and also a top one which goes for about £850.00.
Decisions decisions decisions.
Regards
Mick
Thanks for the replies...much appreciated.
Malcom / Paul
My first inclination is to go for an Aro, but I believe that it was designed for suspended TT's such as the LP12. The Loricraft plinth has a small platform in each corner which holds a squash ball, on which the Platter table is mounted. Loricraft have experimented with loads of different type of suspension and found that the squash balls sounded the best. This by all accounts does not flatter the Aro. Loricraft are always changing their mind as to what the best arm is, but their publicity photos nearly always feature a SME V.
John...Terry Sullivan will tell you that a restored 301 or 401 sounds the same as a 501, very strange but true.
Tony / Nick
I have heard good things about OL and also similar ravings about a company called incognito. Nigel (no 2 guy at Loricrafts favours a RB300 modified by Incognito, but he is prone to rapid change of mind. I think he loves the sound of the last arm he played, if you see what I mean.
Nigel reckons that the OL or incognito modified RB300 is the overall winner whilst Terry reckons the SME 1V gives the best sound. Neither of them like the Aro on a Garrard but rave about it on a LP12.
I am just about to order a 36" wide TV,now that Mrs Mick has chosen what she wants, so I will not be buying the arm until next month at least.
My main problem is that its not easy demming an arm on a Garrard.
Loricraft manufacture their own PSU's, one called a Baretta aimed at the 301/401 and retails at £450.00 and also a top one which goes for about £850.00.
Decisions decisions decisions.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Not For Me
Micj,
Obvious question, but why don't you rate the LP12?
I had two Garrard in my early days, and they were pants compared to my first major upgrade, a Thorens TD150 with RB250.
DS
OTP - Doc Scott - Shadow Boxing
Obvious question, but why don't you rate the LP12?
I had two Garrard in my early days, and they were pants compared to my first major upgrade, a Thorens TD150 with RB250.
DS
OTP - Doc Scott - Shadow Boxing
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Mick P
David
Garrard produced a lot of cheap TT's as well as the two vastly superior models in the form of the 301 and 401.
Both tables were hand made on a special production line and were finished and tested to a high standard. They were horrifically expensive. The motors were rugged, reliable and as smooth as silk.
The major problem was that they were sold without a plinth and customers often bought cheap 1/4" thick plywood ones and the result was rumble.
It was likened to buying a Rolls Royce engine and dropping it into a Morris 1000. Even the best engine will vibrate if incorrectly mounted.
They were also direct drive and the public wanted belt drives which reduced the rumble. Thats why a lot of belt driven tables are small and light in construction.
Loricraft is a small firm which restores the 301's/401's and they sell a massively heavy wooden plinth as shown in the picture sent in by John C earlier in this thread. I have the same plinth in a paler wood.
This plinth totally eliminates the rumble and the sound is superior to that of a LP12.
The problem being that there are thousands of punters who automatically go for a LP12 without listening to a 401. The manager of Audio T from Reading had to admit that the Garrard surprised him.
It is more solid that a LP12, needs no set up and just runs for ever.
The downside is that it weighs a ton and the plinth measures 22"x17"x5". This can be too large and bulky for some people. It is even bigger if you use the perspex lid which is 4" high.
I would never sell the 401, it is beautiful and sounds great.
Regards
Mick
Garrard produced a lot of cheap TT's as well as the two vastly superior models in the form of the 301 and 401.
Both tables were hand made on a special production line and were finished and tested to a high standard. They were horrifically expensive. The motors were rugged, reliable and as smooth as silk.
The major problem was that they were sold without a plinth and customers often bought cheap 1/4" thick plywood ones and the result was rumble.
It was likened to buying a Rolls Royce engine and dropping it into a Morris 1000. Even the best engine will vibrate if incorrectly mounted.
They were also direct drive and the public wanted belt drives which reduced the rumble. Thats why a lot of belt driven tables are small and light in construction.
Loricraft is a small firm which restores the 301's/401's and they sell a massively heavy wooden plinth as shown in the picture sent in by John C earlier in this thread. I have the same plinth in a paler wood.
This plinth totally eliminates the rumble and the sound is superior to that of a LP12.
The problem being that there are thousands of punters who automatically go for a LP12 without listening to a 401. The manager of Audio T from Reading had to admit that the Garrard surprised him.
It is more solid that a LP12, needs no set up and just runs for ever.
The downside is that it weighs a ton and the plinth measures 22"x17"x5". This can be too large and bulky for some people. It is even bigger if you use the perspex lid which is 4" high.
I would never sell the 401, it is beautiful and sounds great.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by garyi
Mick you need one of these, and you know it:
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Keith Mattox
The most unique thing about the super-Garrards is the idler wheel drive (I didn't see this mentioned in the thread - apologies if I missed it). Somewhere in the Loricraft web site they mention(ed) that they have logical reasons why idler drive, when done right, is better than belt. I'd be very interested in seeing this given the preponderance of belt drives in the high-end tt market.
I'm perfectly happy with my LP12 and have no desire to change it, but I'd love to see a Loricraft-built/refurbed Garrard, just out of curiosity.
Cheers
Keith.
I'm perfectly happy with my LP12 and have no desire to change it, but I'd love to see a Loricraft-built/refurbed Garrard, just out of curiosity.
Cheers
Keith.
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Mick P
Keith
Loricraft's workshop is only 11 miles from where I live and as such I have had an opportunity to view a 501 first hand.
The workmanship is, if anything, way over the top. The quality is of aircraft engineering level and the machine just looks superb in a vintage sort of way. Everything is hand machined or finished due to the low batch production.
The plinth for instance, is wood and is matched for grain. The wood can either be oiled or waxed finish and looks almost antique. The thing will last forever with hardly any maintenance.
This all comes at a cost of £7000.00 inc PSU, but once you have heard one, everything else is junk.
The 501 is based on the 401 but has a far better finish with tighter machining tolerances.
My grandchildren will be using my 401, it's that good.
Regards
Mick
Loricraft's workshop is only 11 miles from where I live and as such I have had an opportunity to view a 501 first hand.
The workmanship is, if anything, way over the top. The quality is of aircraft engineering level and the machine just looks superb in a vintage sort of way. Everything is hand machined or finished due to the low batch production.
The plinth for instance, is wood and is matched for grain. The wood can either be oiled or waxed finish and looks almost antique. The thing will last forever with hardly any maintenance.
This all comes at a cost of £7000.00 inc PSU, but once you have heard one, everything else is junk.
The 501 is based on the 401 but has a far better finish with tighter machining tolerances.
My grandchildren will be using my 401, it's that good.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Mark Dunn
Hi Mick:
Firstly, I still own a 401 in a HUGE plinth with SME 3009SII and Shure V15III. It's in England (I'm now in the U.S.) but it worked well, so I have some experience with these beasts.
I haven't personally heard the Bastin PSU but by all accounts it's a cracker and my gut feeling would be a better supply would be your best bet.
As far as arms go, if my memory isn't playing tricks, I seem to remember that the Decca unipivot was a favorite on the 401. These are apparently still available from Walrus Systems in London. Another more eclectic choice might be the RSA1 from Japan (search the Audio Asylum under the 'Vinyl' section for details), which is unusual in that it simply sits, unafixed on the armboard and works wonderfully, apparently.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunns
Firstly, I still own a 401 in a HUGE plinth with SME 3009SII and Shure V15III. It's in England (I'm now in the U.S.) but it worked well, so I have some experience with these beasts.
I haven't personally heard the Bastin PSU but by all accounts it's a cracker and my gut feeling would be a better supply would be your best bet.
As far as arms go, if my memory isn't playing tricks, I seem to remember that the Decca unipivot was a favorite on the 401. These are apparently still available from Walrus Systems in London. Another more eclectic choice might be the RSA1 from Japan (search the Audio Asylum under the 'Vinyl' section for details), which is unusual in that it simply sits, unafixed on the armboard and works wonderfully, apparently.
Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunns
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by John C
[This message was edited by John C on MONDAY 24 June 2002 at 22:21.]
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by Phil Barry
Personally, having had troubles with idelr drives all the time that I owned them, I doubt that the Garrard is perfect. The belt drive took the hifi world by storm because it was easier to build a better table, cheaper. The AR table was just a lot quieter than even the best Garrards 35 years ago.
OTOH, I understand that the Garrard transcription tables are more dynamic than belt drive tables.
I don't doubtthat the Garrard is a very fine table, but I would be surprised if many LP12 users would be tempted to switch - and vice versa.
Phil
OTOH, I understand that the Garrard transcription tables are more dynamic than belt drive tables.
I don't doubtthat the Garrard is a very fine table, but I would be surprised if many LP12 users would be tempted to switch - and vice versa.
Phil
Posted on: 24 June 2002 by JeremyB
Mick,
Terry of Loricraft assured me that Aro works very well in the Garrards. He mentioned the 501 and even a 601as being a match so it could be a good long term plan too.
Personally, having installed my Aro in the LP12 I know I will never buy another arm. It is just too perfect (to be more precise, it seems perfect to the exact extent that vinyl is perfect if that makes sense) and any cartridge, TT, phone stage etc will now need to fit in with it to be considered. I am sure that the setup could be better, but I have never cared less about VTA, anti skate force etc etc. The effect of all those things is in a way irrelevant, it's hard to describe but easy to experience.
Jeremy
Terry of Loricraft assured me that Aro works very well in the Garrards. He mentioned the 501 and even a 601as being a match so it could be a good long term plan too.
Personally, having installed my Aro in the LP12 I know I will never buy another arm. It is just too perfect (to be more precise, it seems perfect to the exact extent that vinyl is perfect if that makes sense) and any cartridge, TT, phone stage etc will now need to fit in with it to be considered. I am sure that the setup could be better, but I have never cared less about VTA, anti skate force etc etc. The effect of all those things is in a way irrelevant, it's hard to describe but easy to experience.
Jeremy
Posted on: 25 June 2002 by Andrew Randle
quote:
It also reveals deep tuneful bass sometimes only hinted at by the LP12
Well then Ekos it. The Aro doesn't do bass like an Ekos. Similarly, the Ekos ain't as open as an Aro.
Mick, all I can say is take your time over the decision. Borrow an LP12, try it with an Lingo/Ekos and Geddon/Aro and your favourite cartridge. Alternatively you're more than welcome to hear mine (once I get the Adikt cartridge after 8th July when they're released).
The Aro will work very nicely on a Garrard... unipivots were originally designed for massy unsuspended decks - then the Aro came along to prove the exception to the "rule" that unipivots can't work on suspended decks.
Nottingham Analogue was a good suggestion earlier, so too the Origin Live mods. A Roksan Artemiz may also suit.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 25 June 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
Borrow an LP12, try it with an Lingo/Ekos and Geddon/Aro and your favourite cartridge.
Tricky in practice.
I think Mick is clearly in need on an LP12, but he will have to come to realise this for himself.
Apart from anything else an LP12 will fit with Fraim better than his current steam powered job.
Paul
Posted on: 25 June 2002 by Frank Abela
Mick,
Talk to Terry at Loricraft. If he thinks an ARO will work well, then it would be worth your while to go down that route I think. He has the most experience with these decks after all.
If he doesn't think the ARO will be a good combination (which I doubt), then I'd forget the RB300 and start considering the likes of RB1000, SME and possibly the Wilson benesch arm. I've heard the latter in both suspended and non-suspended decks. I preferred it in the Gyrodec, but that's because I prefer the Gyrodec to most (i.e. all) things! That said, although the RB1000 looks like a good-looking RB300, the bearings are built to much higher tolerances such that it takes two weeks to build an RB1000 where it takes less than half a day to build an RB300...
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Talk to Terry at Loricraft. If he thinks an ARO will work well, then it would be worth your while to go down that route I think. He has the most experience with these decks after all.
If he doesn't think the ARO will be a good combination (which I doubt), then I'd forget the RB300 and start considering the likes of RB1000, SME and possibly the Wilson benesch arm. I've heard the latter in both suspended and non-suspended decks. I preferred it in the Gyrodec, but that's because I prefer the Gyrodec to most (i.e. all) things! That said, although the RB1000 looks like a good-looking RB300, the bearings are built to much higher tolerances such that it takes two weeks to build an RB1000 where it takes less than half a day to build an RB300...
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 25 June 2002 by Mick P
Nick
I am pleased that you prefer your 301 over the LP12...what arm do you have on it.
Frank
I live only a few miles from Loricraft and have discussed this issue with Terry Sullivan several times.
His advice has always been that the Aro is unsuitable for the Garrard. One day he recommended the SME 1V, another day it was the SME V and on other occassions, the Origin Live RB300 and lastly the Incognito RB300.
Now I read from Jeremy that Terry recommended the Aro.
You now see why I am uncertain which way to go.
Regards
Poor old Mick
I am pleased that you prefer your 301 over the LP12...what arm do you have on it.
Frank
I live only a few miles from Loricraft and have discussed this issue with Terry Sullivan several times.
His advice has always been that the Aro is unsuitable for the Garrard. One day he recommended the SME 1V, another day it was the SME V and on other occassions, the Origin Live RB300 and lastly the Incognito RB300.
Now I read from Jeremy that Terry recommended the Aro.
You now see why I am uncertain which way to go.
Regards
Poor old Mick
Posted on: 26 June 2002 by Frank Abela
In a bid to ever-confuse poor ol' Mick...
How about a Graham Robin tonearm? I know the higher end 1.0 and that was very good indeed. The benefit of the Robin is it uses a Rega cutout. If the importer/distributor/reseller (they import and sell direct) is of a mind, he may choose to lend you one on sale or return. Just a thought...
I believe the Robin retails for around £650.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
How about a Graham Robin tonearm? I know the higher end 1.0 and that was very good indeed. The benefit of the Robin is it uses a Rega cutout. If the importer/distributor/reseller (they import and sell direct) is of a mind, he may choose to lend you one on sale or return. Just a thought...
I believe the Robin retails for around £650.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 26 June 2002 by Timbo
Well I'm going to replace my aging LP12 with the following:
New LP12, solid base, ARO, Armageddon, Dynavector XXL
This seems a good matchup - any comments?
which will replace my LP12 valhalla, ITTOK LVII and Karma. The LP12 dates from 1981 but with constant updates til the cirkus, new clear lid and a 1987 Krma with 500 hours on it.
Hopefully the new one will have me totally engaged back into vinyl.
Tim
New LP12, solid base, ARO, Armageddon, Dynavector XXL
This seems a good matchup - any comments?
which will replace my LP12 valhalla, ITTOK LVII and Karma. The LP12 dates from 1981 but with constant updates til the cirkus, new clear lid and a 1987 Krma with 500 hours on it.
Hopefully the new one will have me totally engaged back into vinyl.
Tim
Posted on: 26 June 2002 by Mark Dunn
Timbo:
I've used exactly these two deck set-ups with the exception that I have an XV-1 and not a XX-1L. You would not know they're based on the same machine. You're in for a treat.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
I've used exactly these two deck set-ups with the exception that I have an XV-1 and not a XX-1L. You would not know they're based on the same machine. You're in for a treat.
Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 27 June 2002 by Frank Abela
Timbo
Is there a reason why you didn't simply have your LP12 upgraded? Just curious...
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Is there a reason why you didn't simply have your LP12 upgraded? Just curious...
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 27 June 2002 by Timbo
A couple of reasons Frank, it is 21 years old and I think it will need too much servicing over the next few years and probably the most important I am in the fortunate position of it being bought for me as a pressie.
I am attached to my current Linn and may keep it for another system and also I was a bit worried about the sound of the cirkus sound against the pre-cirkus sound but I do like both.
Tim
I am attached to my current Linn and may keep it for another system and also I was a bit worried about the sound of the cirkus sound against the pre-cirkus sound but I do like both.
Tim