playing wet records
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 19 November 2000
Sometimes, when a record makes an annoying noise, and as I don't have a cleaning machine, I wet the record with a fluid (33% iso propyl alcohol and 67% (exectly...) distilled water) most of the times the records when wet, sounds noisless like a perfect cd.
Many times after a listening to the wet record, on a second listening, the record sounds great without wetting it again (it seems the wetting and playing it cleans it very well) .
What do you think/know about it ?
Arie
Posted on: 19 November 2000 by Ron Toolsie
Years ago I tried just this very same thing.... wet-playing LPs with an alcohol/water mix. The empirics seem good- the wetting agent not only acts as a lubricant, but also as a conductor that helps dissipate the very high local temperature at the stylus/vinyl contact point.
I found that it did significantly lower the noise floor of albums that already were noisy, but unlike yourself found that once I had played a 'wet' album, if I didn't wet it for the next play, all the surface noise returned and actually got worse. Add the risk of having the liquid/gunk emulsion drawn up by the cantilever mechanism and deposited into the cartridge innards... I decided it was just not worth it. Your mileage may vary.
Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo
http://homepages.go.com/~rontoolsie/index1.html
[This message was edited by Ron Toolsie on SUNDAY 19 November 2000 at 19:59.]
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Rico
My experiences of this wet record playing back in the late seventies mirror those of Ron's, above.
Not a good idea.
Rico - musichead
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Eric Gilliand
33% isopropyl I found was too concentrated and once dried caused leeching of the vinyl (hence Ron's experience). If you must use this mixture 10% iso' max. Personally I don't use it at all now. A record shop that I frequent which will remain nameless used to be in the habit of wiping their vinyl over with a cloth and pure isopropyl, needless to say their records LOOKED in great condition but sounded bloody awful. (They no longer do it thank goodness).
I have used a Nitty Gritty Pro for many years now and only use their fluid which supposedly has a surfactant in it to negate the leeching effect.
When first played after cleaning and vacuum drying yes it is MUCH quieter but also somewhat lifeless. (still wet in the grooves you see). After a couple of plays however back to normal, still quiet but pace and rhythm present again. I always place in a fresh inner sleeve (Nitty Gritty or Nagaoka) after cleaning. Any surface noise tends to lesson with repeated playings probably due to the stylus itself cleaning out the last of the loosened debris.
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Arye_Gur
No more wet records ! Thanks.
Eric Gilliand ,
Can you give me sites name for the fluid and the sleeves ?
Is the fluid dries completely out of the record (with no materials staying on it) ?
Arie
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Tony L
quote:
Many times after a listening to the wet record, on a second listening, the record sounds great without wetting it again (it seems the wetting and playing it cleans it very well) .
My first record deck many years ago was a Goldring Lenco GL75, and this had an optional extra wet playing system called Lenco Clean. I tried this system for a while, and found that when being used it worked quite well regarding surface noise (but added rumble as it was in contact with the playing record). The problem with Lenco clean (and I suspect any other non vacuum wet system) was that as soon as the record dried any dust on the disk was glued back! Dry playing records after treatment was disastrous - I was so pissed off with this system. It is only since owning my current VPI cleaner that some of my older records have been restored to a decent condition.
Beware of any wet play system.
Tony.
Scary stuff indeed...
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by John Schmidt
Arie,
Speaking as a chemist, I'd be verrrrry careful about this. Vinyl plastics have plasticizers added to them to tailor their material properties, e.g. brittleness, to their particular use. These can be leached out of the plastic by prolonged contact with organic solvents, such as alcohols. Also, organic solvents can cause plastics to swell, sort of the way gelatin swells when exposed to water. Plastics vary greatly in their resistance to swelling and leaching. In the absence of specific technical information you're taking a chance with your records.
Cheers,
John Schmidt
"95% of everything is crud" - Theodore Sturgeon
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Arye_Gur
John Schmidt,
Thank you for your knowledgeable post.
If I understand you well you recommand not to use
alcohol at all.
Can you recommand how to clean records ?
Arie
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Andrew Randle
Oh dear, things don't bode too well for Arie's record collection... "Help, I'm meltiiiiing".
Don't worry, although John is correct I'm sure you've done less damage than the Israeli summer heat has.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Rob Doorack
I recall reading somewhere that playing records wet was popular with 1950s audiophiles using the massive arms and heavy cartrdiges of the time. The problem was that once a record had been played that way it had to be played wet forever. Another factor you should consider is what wet playing may be doing to your phono cartridge. Nothing good, I'd suspect. The alcohol may be migrating up the cantilever and attacking the rubber suspension parts.
I'd suggest that you take a look at the Disc Doctor record cleaning system at http://discdoc.com/lp.html . This product can be used without a record vacuum machine (although you can use one if you wish), it contains no alcohol, and has been very favorably reviewed in the US audio press. Its also available from online audio specialists like Music Direct (www.amusicdirect.com) who ship anywhere. One nice aspect to the Disc Doctor fluid for non - US customers is that its shipped as a concentrate that you dilute with distilled water so you don't have to pay to ship water internationally.
records
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Joe Petrik
Rob,
quote:
I'd suggest that you take a look at the Disc Doctor record cleaning system at http://discdoc.com/lp.html. This product can be used without a record vacuum machine (although you can use one if you wish), it contains no alcohol, and has been very favorably reviewed in the US audio press.
Would you recommend this product to someone who already uses a VPI or Nitty Gritty vacuum model?
Joe
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Phil Barry
Yes.
Sell the machine and buy the Discdoc system. Or keep the machine and use Buggtussel. Both DD and Bt are better than the VPI, NG, or home brew solutions.
Phil
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Joe Petrik
Phil,
quote:
Sell the machine and buy the Discdoc system. Or keep the machine and use Buggtussel. Both DD and Bt are better than the VPI, NG, or home brew solutions.
Have you compared the Disc Doctor with the various Nitty Gritty and VPI machines? And if you did, in what way is the DD better?
Also, are you suggesting that the Disc Doctor and Buggtussel solutions work better in a VPI or Nitty Gritty machine than the proprietor's own fluid?
Sorry for being pedantic, but I'm a bit of a record-cleaning nutter and I want to get the most out of my LPs. Also, as I'm sure any vinyl trawler will attest, used records aren't getting better, so a safe industrial-strength cleaner would be a real good thing.
Joe
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Rob Doorack
I do use the Disc Doctor system with a Nitty Gritty Model 1 vacuum to remove the cleaning fluid and rinse water faster. H. Duane Goldman, the chemist who created the cleaning fluid, insists that a vacuum is unnecessary but sort of sighs and says "go ahead and use it if you want to". His preferred fluid removal method is to sponge up the liquid with the cheapest unscented toilet tissue you can find, then let the record air dry in a dish rack.
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Phil Barry
Joe,
I have used only a VPI 16.5 at a dealer's and my NG 1.0 at home. I've used all the fluids I wrote about above. I'm out of Buggtussel Vinylzyme Gold, shich was the best I'd used until I wrote Duane Goldman about using DD. He gave me good instructions, and the results are fantastic. I air-dry with DD, which allows me to listen to music while cleaning.
The Buggtussel Vinylzyme Gold is easier to use by far - wipe it on, wait 30 seconds, vacuum off - but it really neeeds a vacuum machine. I haven't been able to compare Buggtussel V-zyme Gold to DD.
Both DD ad BT are far better than NG or VPI or homegrown (10% alcohol/distilled water) fluids.
Rob is a good guy and a good writer, but I can't figure out why he doesn't air dry his LPs? ;-)
Phil
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Arye_Gur
Andrew,
The Israeli summer is excelent for the soul...
Few days ago I bought 400 records at the price of 8 cd's.
I can get out about 150 Jezz records and 50 classical music.
All the records are in amazing good condition but have what I think you name as a surface noise.
My problem is how to clean these record quickly
and efficiently.
My all records are feeling okay....
Arie
Posted on: 20 November 2000 by Joe Petrik
Phil,
quote:
Both DD ad BT are far better than NG or VPI or homegrown (10% alcohol/distilled water) fluids.
Thanks. I'm out of Nitty Gritty Pure 2 and was going to order another gallon, but I'll look into getting some Disc Doctor cleaning juice.
By its name alone, I'm tempted to avoid Buggtussel Vinylzyme Gold. I mean, what's a Buggtussel? And their ad only makes matters worse: "Your Enzyme-Based Record And CD Cleansing Friend For The New Millentium [sic]." Hmmmm, Y2K compliant LP cleaning fluid?
quote:
Rob is a good guy and a good writer, but I can't figure out why he doesn't air dry his LPs?
Maybe he can buy only scented arse wipes where he lives, so he has to use his Nitty Gritty to dry records 
Joe
Posted on: 21 November 2000 by Rob Doorack
quote:
Maybe he can buy only scented arse wipes where he lives
to be read aloud in the voice of a vaudeville or music hall comic:
We wouldn't have an arse paper shortage in my home if The Audio Critic was published more frequently!
(insert rim shot sound effect here)
Sorry, that was mean, but I couldn't resist - Joe's set up was too perfect.
Posted on: 21 November 2000 by Joe Petrik
Rob,
I think you've earned your first Snappy, an award conferred here for outstanding posts.
Joe
