As things get QUIETER --things get LOUDER!

Hi Guys.

First let me state on behalf of all that this very interesting discussion is an intellectual exercise and though it is also the serious background to what we hear and how we hear it, it is compeletely separate from any discussion on the ENJOYMENT of our music no matter how imperfect it is in reality

WE are indeed "trapped" by the vagaries of the recording engineers. Fredrik has written in the past of his frustration with the ABUSE rather than use of modern technology in the recording studio. The individual(s) that can do the most damage (the sound engineer and the producer) often do a lot of that. I have some relatively old recordings which I bought recently as re-issued 180/200g vinyl of well know jazz artists which blow modern recordings, even from sometimes the same artists, out of the water with respect to clarity and purity without overemphasis. Fredrik has also commeneted that MONO recordings can often give a closer approach to this purity, and I am finding the same. I have a Ben Webster Quintet mono recording which has amore sense of "being there" than quite a proportion of stereo recordings.

Also the point about listening levels and the way that affects the linearity of our hearing has kind of brought us full circle to where we started. I agree that low level listening reduces the perceived bass component, which with the worst compressed and overemphasised modern recordings could actually be a godsend.

This brings into discussion the role of the sub-woofer. I am prepared to admit I have a small one. I bought it for HT DVD plaback but I chose well in the sense that I bought a REL which has an excellent range of adjustments to allow "integration" with the main speakers. The way this works is to take the output from the amplifier speaker terminals and feed the combined stereo signal to the sub-woofer. Then by vary CAREFULL adjustment select a "roll in" frequensy and amplification for the sub that starts to politely augment the sound as the main speakers "roll-off". Once set up this has two interesting effects.

1. At low listening levels the sub brings the bass weight that would normally only heard at higher listening levels into the sound field. This of course needs to be at agentle volume.
2. It "lifts" the music ina way that is not just apparent in the bass region but alos transfers to the mid and high frequency regions through the doubled harmonics introduced by the bass extension.

It is also very easy to unplug or leave in circuit so I can use it selectively. It may sound like treason but it works for me. At higher listening levesl the main speakers take over in a more serious way and the subs effect disappears into the background.

Of course I need to add that it depends on the type of music you listen to a lot. I would not recommend it for Classical music as opposed to samll group Jazz.

regards
GEOFF

Hy Frederik and Geoff!
If I enjoy music i don,t think about the system.I agree full.
Our questionossible that our system could/should sound better?Big difference i n those words s h o u l d /c o u l d.

As all other handworkers Soundengineers of today have more technical equipment than in the
past and the more posibilities can therefore often be sources for more faults.(and silly ideas)
spot microhone technic in classical concerts is imo definitly idiotic,and i wonder often out of which reason microphones hang over a classical orchester on the ceiling.I would hang the inventor of this idea there ,and he could have
the pleasure to hear a concert from this perspective.

And the progress of new digital technic is concerning this often not bigger than the progress of cd vs vinyl in last 20 years(means cd players are now on the level of best turntables,but definitly n o t far ahead.

And as a music lover i have the same wish like you concerning yur last sentences.

.....maybe i go for a analog nagratape or the new digital nagra harddisc machine,and start my own recording business.
O.J.(sometimesalittlebitenthusiastic.)

Talking about lack of bass in low level listening - which we were'n,t but I just thought it a point to discuss.

As I said I use a sub-woofer to augment the bass at low listening levels which has makes quite an effective contribution and replaces the lost "drive' that appears at the main sepakers when the volume level is ramped up and they get going.

I find this effect pleasing, but not on all recordings, it varies dependent on recording emphasis. Fredrik on the other hand comments that he has never been "into " bass and does not mind the lack of it particularly at low levels.

It seems to me that the bass line has a different importance to different types of music. The obvious comparison is take my own listening favorites which tend towards small group Jazz and I am assuming here, but I would think Fredrik listens most of the time to classical music.

In my opinion Jazz needs a strong bass line to breathe life into it. The drive that comes from this not only brings a foot tapping reaction from the listener but invigorates the performers to extend their improvisations and "shout and swing" as you might say.

On the other hand I feel classical music does not need a dominant bass sound because the sense of time and beat comes from the bars in the music and the ensmble playing within the sections of the orchestra.

As for "Pop" well I am not even going to discuss the role bass content plays in that. It is used as a tool to overwhelm all else.

The one thing that is damaging to this is the obbsessive over emphasis that is placed on bass content during the mixing process. It reaches the point where it is tuneless and no amount of speaker selection for bass delivery will fix it.

One of the things that has happened with the recent introduction of the XPS2 into my system is the rendition of bass notes and the separation is at the best level I have heard. This has confirmed that given the appropriate level of resolution in the signal my speakers can render bass notes properly. Now when I hear a "thumping" noise rather than a tune I am pretty certain it is what was recorded by overemphasis in the studio.

It is a useless noise and sad that they do this more an more. Recently recorded Jazz is even tending to sound more this way.

regards
GEOFF

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Talking about lack of bass in low level listening - which we were'n,t but I just thought it a point to discuss.

As I said I use a sub-woofer to augment the bass at low listening levels which has makes quite an effective contribution and replaces the lost "drive' that appears at the main sepakers when the volume level is ramped up and they get going.

I find this effect pleasing, but not on all recordings, it varies dependent on recording emphasis. Fredrik on the other hand comments that he has never been "into " bass and does not mind the lack of it particularly at low levels.

It seems to me that the bass line has a different importance to different types of music. The obvious comparison is take my own listening favorites which tend towards small group Jazz and I am assuming here, but I would think Fredrik listens most of the time to classical music.

In my opinion Jazz needs a strong bass line to breathe life into it. The drive that comes from this not only brings a foot tapping reaction from the listener but invigorates the performers to extend their improvisations and "shout and swing" as you might say.

On the other hand I feel classical music does not need a dominant bass sound because the sense of time and beat comes from the bars in the music and the ensmble playing within the sections of the orchestra.

As for "Pop" well I am not even going to discuss the role bass content plays in that. It is used as a tool to overwhelm all else.

The one thing that is damaging to this is the obbsessive over emphasis that is placed on bass content during the mixing process. It reaches the point where it is tuneless and no amount of speaker selection for bass delivery will fix it.

One of the things that has happened with the recent introduction of the XPS2 into my system is the rendition of bass notes and the separation is at the best level I have heard. This has confirmed that given the appropriate level of resolution in the signal my speakers can render bass notes properly. Now when I hear a "thumping" noise rather than a tune I am pretty certain it is what was recorded by overemphasis in the studio.

It is a useless noise and sad that they do this more an more. Recently recorded Jazz is even tending to sound more this way.

regards
GEOFF

---

Hy Geoff!problem of subwoofers
is:deepbass +short tones.
you can shift phase by the switch on the sub
and you can get phase right by positoning your sub.
Rel recommends to take signal out of amp and not preamp,so the common phase faults of amp/preamp and not only those of preamps come to the Sub amplifier (Clever thought ,there is also loudspeaker feedback to amp included )
Bass amp of rel is very strong.But concerning short deep tones it is impossible to get the phase correct because you cannot start your sub work earlier as the signal comes from amp.and with corrected phase it will stop later than timecorrect end of signal.So the optimum goal would be an active crossover and a time delay for high frequencies. means to bring high frequencies in phase to bass and not vice versa.passive sub with passive crossover would also work theoretical.but those passive "delay "parts of loudspeaker will
need an very strong and expensive amp.(look at thiel homepage discussio about time coherent speakers)
Do not agree that there is less bass in classic music (heared today parts of Frederiks recommended bach walcha organ).but i agree that Rhytm of jazz is
often based on short bass lines and subwoofers
are nothing other than the try to reproduce all deep frequencies,and to do this "in Time"
and not to destroy musical relations.
o.j.

quote:

---

you can shift phase by the switch on the sub
and you can get phase right by positoning your sub.
Rel recommends to take signal out of amp and not preamp,so the common phase faults of amp/preamp and not only those of preamps come to the Sub amplifier (Clever thought ,there is also loudspeaker feedback to amp included )
Bass amp of rel is very strong.But concerning short deep tones it is impossible to get the phase correct because you cannot start your sub work earlier as the signal comes from amp.and with corrected phase it will stop later than timecorrect end of signal.So the optimum goal would be an active crossover and a time delay for high frequencies. means to bring high frequencies in phase to bass and not vice versa.passive sub with passive crossover would also work theoretical.but those passive "delay "parts of loudspeaker will
need an very strong and expensive amp.(look at thiel homepage discussio about time coherent speakers)

---

O.J.

I do agree in principle. My REL is connected up as you describe. The other usefull thing on the REL is the Phase switch. I did find the integration better with the phase switch reversed. The comment I would make is that whilst you are correct about the timing thing at higher volumes where the sub is starting to "compete" with the woofers in the main speakers, at low listening levels there is less output from the main speakers which means, whether it is time & phase correct or not, as long as the delay is very short the bass from the sub sounds quite natural. I do admit this is very postion dependent. I know the pundits talk about non-directional bass but that is not completely true IMO. I have a small room so the sub is not far away from me or the main speakers which may help to make it work for me.

Incidentally I turn the sub off when I am listening at highre levels.

quote:

---

In jazz the whole thing is different, in that the bass, with piano or percussion, tends to "create the rhythm," and not accompany it. Jazz players can be a right problem when in the orchestra, as sometimes they will not wait that crucial, subtle mile-second!

Only my two penneth worth! But It is certain to me that no equipment is more acute at revealing ALL these subtleties than Naim, while delivering equally acute definitions of the dynamic as well.

---

Fredrik

I like your comment about a typical jazz player being keen to get in there and play. I played Banjo / guitar in a small school boy Traditional Jazz group back in the dark ages. We were actually quite good and ended up playimng in a local hall every Friday, typically to teenagers that wanted to boogie. It was great fun I recall since there was no pressure to sound prefect. The odd mistake was easily glossed over and forgiven within the band, and as for the audience, well beer dulls the senses anyway.
However we all wanted to be heard and quite often the beat would get faster as the number wore on with everybody trying to be the soloist.

I guess you won't get any argument on your commenst about Naim here either.

regards
GEOFF

Geoff!i do not think that the phase relation of main speakers to sub changes increasingyouchange only the common level.it is more the difference of sub+subamp+reduced signal of main amp in comparision to mainspeakers+main amp Phase shiftings that will be magnified.Specially if sub and non frequencie cutted mainspeakers do some same frequencies.O.J.

I guess your right about it O.J. From previous threads it has emerged that sub-woofers work for some and don't for others.

I had to persevere for quite a while before I got the right effect. Easy to lose patience and give up.

Anyway it works for me.

Like your "crossover" thread. I was surprised at the response. It is obviously a subject a lot of people are thinking about.

I suppose one way would be to go active with a non-naim adjustable crossover. I saw one mentioned the other day (can't think of the name now) which allowed that sort of operation.

regards
GEOFF