Congratulaions to the USA

Posted by: Mick P on 20 January 2005

Chaps

May I, on behalf of the British people, congratulate you all on the innaurgaration of President Bush.

Thank you for you common sense. We have a lot to thank you for. You beat the liberal pinkos.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by Berlin Fritz

Don't worry TV I won't spoil yer run with silly truths that spike your 'theories²' . Donald's just been on the blower and tells me his boys were only holding the ladder ! so that'
s allright then innit.

Fritz Von Starinouinthefacepeopleacceptit

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by bigmick

quote:
today's edition of the ultra-conservative The Guardian

Ultra conservative? Steve, this is really becoming tedious wank. I vaguely recall some idiot here suggesting that, because the editor of the Guardian had run a piece from someone at Israeli foreign affairs, the spiel contained in the piece was some way validated. Complete nonsense of course.

The Guardian is simply publishing a viewpoint and if tomorrow, it subsequently runs a piece from someone who believes that the elections are a US engineered farce preying on a naïve and desperate people who will end up with a government that does what it’s told by the US, subject to the “veiled threats” mentioned earlier, it doesn’t therefore mean that it endorses those views any more than it endorses Shawcross’s opinion. Irrespective of its politics it’s quite rightly presenting balanced coverage and running this piece doesn’t diminish the fact that Shawcross is so far up Bush’s arse that he can see the soles of Parry’s feet. Following neocon practice he is not concerned to any great extent with any evidence, facts or expert opinion which doesn’t substantiate his anti-European, pro-US polemic and outside of extreme right wing circles his currency as a reliable political commentator seems to have, like his beloved dollar, freefalled. Not too long before he, Christopher Hitchens and John McCririck are battling it to be the token right wing nut on The Wright Stuff.

Finally Steve, I can’t think of anyone sensible who regards these blogs as anything more than pap, the ravings of people who are either hopelessly insecure, unhealthily consumed with their own importance or increasingly a medium for the promotion of extreme political and religious views. Then other people of a similarly opinion quote the blog almost as evidence to support their points on other forums, never mind that the individual behind such a blog is frequently fictional, perhaps a group with political affiliations.

In other words, blogs and hearsay are unchecked and unsupported, not fact, definitely not evidence of anything and should be clearly labelled as such. Ali may or may not be real, his blogs show nuances that ring alarm bells but I don’t know, it doesn’t matter because it's just a blog and not to be confused with fact. Nuff said.

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by 7V

quote:
Originally posted by bigmick:
quote:
today's edition of the ultra-conservative The Guardian

Ultra conservative?

I was being ironic.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by Berlin Fritz

quote:
Originally posted by 7V:
quote:
Originally posted by bigmick:
quote:
today's edition of the ultra-conservative The Guardian

Ultra conservative?

I was being ironic.

Regards^

Pressing TV engagement no doubt ? don't Plebs like me really get on your nerves sometimes John ?

Fritz Von Egotripsstilldon'tpaytherent
Steve

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by bigmick

quote:
I was being ironic.

Well you were being tediously sarcastic; that was my first point. Your point being that the neocon take on Iraq must surely be right as even the left wing paper of choice is trumpeting Shawcross. Which merely by publishing the piece, it wasn't. Which was my second point.

Seems like only yesterday that you posted

quote:
Well, if Simon Tisdall in The Guardian says so then it must be true.

And yet here you are the next day wheeling out more unsubstantiated guff from some blog as fact. You and those here who share your opinion have really got to relying on wild supposition and the crap peddled by the bottom feeders on these blogs and neocon forums to back up your arguments.

I'd better leave it at that before I'm again accused of being a fascist bully.

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by Mick P

Bigmick

Anyone who describes you as a fascist bully knows nothing of the words fascist or bully.

You are neither of those.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by 7V

quote:
Originally posted by bigmick:
Steve, this is really becoming tedious wank.

Which rather makes me wonder why you wait until now before posting. However, since you have posted I will give a response.

quote:
... Following neocon practice he is not concerned to any great extent with any evidence, facts or expert opinion which doesn’t substantiate his anti-European, pro-US polemic and outside of extreme right wing circles his currency as a reliable political commentator seems to have, like his beloved dollar, freefalled.

The neocon movement doesn't tend to come from the extreme right at all. In fact the majority of neocons are disenchanted Democrats and ex-members of the left. Some became tired with the anti-Americanism that they felt was becoming endemic on the left, while others, I suspect, became neocons so that they could once more have a more idealist vision than the 'dull realism' that they felt the left was dishing up these days.

In any event, to say that it's neocon practice not to be "concerned to any great extent with any evidence, facts or expert opinion which doesn’t substantiate his anti-European, pro-US polemic" is a silly generalisation. One could as easily (and truthfully) say that it's socialist practice not to be concerned to any great extent with any evidence, facts or expert opinion which doesn’t substantiate his anti-American, pro-oppressive-regime polemic.

quote:
Finally Steve, I can’t think of anyone sensible who regards these blogs as anything more than pap, the ravings of people who are either hopelessly insecure, unhealthily consumed with their own importance or increasingly a medium for the promotion of extreme political and religious views.

Finally Mick, can you think of anyone sensible who makes such over the top generalizations? There are certainly some bad blogs out there, many of which do indeed promote extreme views, but there are also some good blogs that are well written, well considered and thought provoking.

Of course a blog should not be 'confused with fact'. Nor should the views of anyone in the more traditional media (Shawcross, to use your example).

quote:
Ali may or may not be real, his blogs show nuances that ring alarm bells ...

Of course, I'd forgotten, Ali and his Iraqi brothers are CIA operatives.

Regards
Steve M

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by Berlin Fritz

quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Bigmick

Anyone who describes you as a fascist bully knows nothing of the words fascist or bully.

You are neither of those.

Regards

Great imput Our Mick, spoken like a true ex-Civil Servant., innit me old Titan.

Fritz Von Cosyerplayinwithfire

Mick

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by matthewr

"The neocon movement doesn't tend to come from the extreme right [and] the majority of neocons are disenchanted Democrats and ex-members of the left"

Where they come from matters nowhere near as much as where they are at -- which is on the extreme right of mainstream politics.

Matthew

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by bigmick

quote:
rather makes me wonder why you wait until now before posting

Well, this is one tough board. I posted as soon as I noticed your irksome post, which was a couple of hours after you posted it. I was busy up to then and my business doesn't run itself. It’s not an exciting excuse but it’s all I’ve got Steve. Is that ok?

I don’t think I stated that the neocon movement came from the extreme right as I never thought it did and it matters not a jot. Trust me, I’m more than familiar with the more enlightened past of people like Shawcross. "dull realism" - well yes, compared to war, concocting reasons for it, empire building, accumulation of other nation’s resources etc. it must seem excruciating dull to first seek to resolve matters through negotiation and non-violent means.

quote:
to say that it's neocon practice not to be "concerned to any great extent with any evidence, facts or expert opinion which doesn’t substantiate his anti-European, pro-US polemic" is a silly generalisation

I wish it was a silly generalisation rather than an undeniably worrying feature. Have you read any of Shawcross's books. Many reviewers have rightly commented,that he is a fine polemicist but a poor journalist in that you believe that he believes his vitriol but he fails to provide hard evidence. The Bush camp has stated on many occasions that it is not concerned with the "reality based" community with their facts and empirical evidence but seeks to invest rather in the "faith based" community, where they follow their instincts, what they believe is right. if you've read the NYT interview with Bruce Bartlett that bhoyo linked to then you'll know what I mean and you'll see that the generalisation is lamentably anything but silly.

quote:
One could as easily (and truthfully) say that it's socialist practice not to be concerned to any great extent with any evidence, facts or expert opinion which doesn’t substantiate his anti-American, pro-oppressive-regime polemic.

This sentence doesn't make too much sense. Who are we talking about here "the socialists"?; who are they? A pro-oppressive regime polemic?

"anti-American" I understand, though if being opposed to the policies of this administration, which is the actual issue, is being anti-American then almost half the US electorate must hate themselves.

.

quote:

Of course a blog should not be 'confused with fact'. .

Steve, Fritz referred to an incident, made a comment and your reply consisted almost entirely of a quote from a blog, which for all we know is pumped out by some middle-aged biddy in Michigan, someone linked to the powers that be in Baghdad or indeed an open-minded Iraqi personnel manager with a penchant for the uilleann pipes. It's about as much worth as me repeating that some bloke at the bus stop had told me that his brother was a soldier in Iraq and had seen soldiers kebabing innocent Iraqi kittens. Substantiated fact is fact regardless of the media or the author.

quote:
Of course, I'd forgotten, Ali and his Iraqi brothers are CIA operatives.

See, you're doing it again and it’s still tedious. Well, if you can’t beat them…... Of course the CIA would never publish something on the web or in fact do anything to deceive people, and anyway Steve, you'd surely be able to tell.

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by 7V

quote:
Originally posted by bigmick:
Well, this is one tough board. I posted as soon as I noticed your irksome post, which was a couple of hours after you posted it. I was busy up to then and my business doesn't run itself. It’s not an exciting excuse but it’s all I’ve got Steve. Is that ok?

Sure

quote:
"dull realism" - well yes, compared to war, concocting reasons for it, empire building, accumulation of other nation’s resources etc. it must seem excruciating dull to first seek to resolve matters through negotiation and non-violent means.

So are you saying that the USA is empire building and accumulating other nation's resources, and that there was no attempt to negotiate with Hussein? We disagree here.

quote:
Have you read any of Shawcross's books.

No, in fact I don't know much about Shawcross. I shall certainly be wary of his writing in the future.

quote:
Steve, Fritz referred to an incident, made a comment and your reply consisted almost entirely of a quote from a blog, which for all we know is pumped out by some middle-aged biddy in Michigan

Actually, a doctor from Baghdad. The Cia reference? Sorry, I assumed that by now everyone was familiar with their story:

Iraq blog spat leads to web chaos

Fritz didn't put up any reference for his "Yankee troops" comment so it was difficult to see what exactly he was referring to. I was ruffled by his use of the term "Great to see..." because I took it to be an example of a kind of anti-American triumphalism that I haven't got much time for.

I posted the comment by Ali because I thought it was poignant and, like I said, I assumed that by now most people accept that he's genuine.

Regards
Steve M

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by Deane F

quote:
Originally posted by 7V:
Deane,

quote:
If the US had any inclination to understand the people in Iraq the same kind of understanding would have been shown to the Saudi people following the World Trade Centre attacks.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that the US should have as soon invaded Saudi as Iraq?

Regards
Steve M

Steve

I'm saying that if the US had any inclination to understand anybody the World Trade Centre attacks would have inspired them to wonder just exactly what the hell they had done to bring such hatred on themselves. Such would require a change of heart and an opening of the mind. While I accept this is a fantasy the problems will get worse and worse until at least one major player in world politics pulls their head out of their fundament and displays some character.

Regards
Deane

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by 7V

quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:
I'm saying that if the US had any inclination to understand anybody the World Trade Centre attacks would have inspired them to wonder just exactly what the hell they had done to bring such hatred on themselves.

Deane,

Thanks for the explanation, although it's not an argument that I agree with.

Regards
Steve M

Posted on: 24 January 2005 by Berlin Fritz

When the Civil War soon breaks out, there'll be lots of business to be had across the board chaps, innit.

Fritz Von Halliburton wins again and again and again

Posted on: 27 January 2005 by 7V

quote:
Originally posted by Deane F:
I'm saying that if the US had any inclination to understand anybody the World Trade Centre attacks would have inspired them to wonder just exactly what the hell they had done to bring such hatred on themselves. Such would require a change of heart and an opening of the mind. While I accept this is a fantasy the problems will get worse and worse until at least one major player in world politics pulls their head out of their fundament and displays some character.

Deane,

Al-Zarqawi is, as you know, a major Islamic terrorist leader and the head of the jihadi insurgency against the Allawi Government and its American allies.

He has recently released an audiotape. The first aim of this release is to give Al-Zarqawi's views about the forthcoming elections in Iraq. However, the tape also states precisely what he believes, the reasons for his fight against the West and why he wishes to destroy the US (first) and other Western countries.

This tells 'exactly what the hell they [the US] had done to bring such hatred on themselves'.

Have you seen the transcript of Al-Zarqawi's tape?

quote:
From transcript of Al-Zarqawi' tape:
"We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology," said the speaker, who identified himself as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, head of the al-Qaida affiliate in Iraq. "Anyone who tries to help set up this system is part of it."

...

The speaker said democracy was based on un-Islamic beliefs and behaviors such as freedom of religion, rule of the people, freedom of expression, separation of religion and state, forming political parties and majority rule.

He said that freedom of expression is allowed "even cursing God. This means that there is nothing sacred in democracy." He said Islam requires the rule of God and not the rule of "the majority or the people."

I think we should start listening to what these people actually say and believe what they are telling us.

Regards
Steve M

PS: Sorry, I left out a chunk at the end so I've just added it.

Posted on: 27 January 2005 by Mick P

Steve

I am about to email G W Bush.

I am suggesting that we send you in, as our secret weapon, to stop the poll stations being blown up and the voters being threatened etc.

Your constant, non stop, droning will drive even the most fanatical terrorist away.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 27 January 2005 by justiceklopper

Hi Mick!

Dont forget to tell GW about your success with the new coffee grinder! I am sure he will be enthralled to hear about it!!!1!1!1!

Posted on: 27 January 2005 by Berlin Fritz

Of course thanks to the Civil Rights Movement Miss Rice can now be Secretary
of State, not so long ago any woman bvlack or white couldn't even drive a greyhound bus, etc, innit.

Fritz Von Istillthinkshe'sabadchoicethough

I didn't know GW was born in C-Cut ?

Posted on: 27 January 2005 by Sir Crispin Cupcake

Hey Mick,

Fahrenheit 9/11's on tonight (Channel 4, 9pm). You can learn lots of things about GWB you are clearly unaware of.

Richard (only trying to help).