Change the amp or speakers in bass boom hell ?
Posted by: rod ayling on 10 April 2004
Hi,
I recently became the proud owner of a used 300 power amp in conjunction with my CDS3/XPS2/252/ Neat Ultimatum MF5 set up.Unfortunately using the 300 has helped tip my speakers ( already close to teetering on the edge of bass dominance, depending on the records) into bass boom hell.
I use my rear ported Neats in a room measuring 13x12 feet on a suspended wooden floor. I bought the Neats used. It was amazing to see them for sale used , so soon after they had been released onto the market, so I took the risk of buying them , without a demo in my living room . I had of course heard them in my local dealers (with a view to buying them) before.
When I first got the Neats home I was using a CDS2/XPS2/52/Scap/135's. I was mightily impressed with what I heard, but found that on certain particulary deep bass recordings the bass could be overbearing. ( BTW, the Neats are about about 5 feet apart and 1-1.5 feet awat from the rear wall). After reading praise about Fraim chips on the forum, I decided to invest in a set and this helped quite alot in reducing the bass boom to tolerable levels , whilst opening up the treble/mid and making the speakers sounding faster. Only the deepest of bass tracks caused a problem e.g dance music seismic bass, but otherwise I was a happy bunny.
Upgraditus took hold and I went on a rather crazy spending spree resulting in a CDS3/252 and then the 300. I could'nt resist some ex-demo deals up for grabs, although of course I bought my CDS3 from my local dealer.
Everything was just getting better and better until I got the 300, which has sadly tipped the balance of the sound of the set up into overpowering bass mode again, only to a greater extent this time. The bass except on (60's/70's recordings) is dominating to such an extent, that the treble/mid are sounding sat upon and slowed down, that I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the 300.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to move the speakers back/forwards/sideways/toe in to any great degree ( there is a TV in the middle), as I just haven't got the room to play with. I've tried paving slabs and they did'nt work for me, (the Fraim chips did ),nor can I go down the seperate mains spur route. I'm certain its a room/speaker interface problem, which has always existed to some extent, but which I have just pushed to the limits.
Ok this is where you good people come in, as I see myself having 3 options :-
1. Persevere with the MF5's and try custom made Mana Soundbases under them. I've heard the Mana's can be very useful in tightening up the bass, as I suspect my suspended wooden floor is the culprit. Perhaps getting the speaker off the suspended floor, could help tame the problem. Fraim chips did help before and surely the Mana's with their greater isloation/decoupling could help to a greater extent. I don't want the Mana to alter the sound in any way, merely tame the bass.
2. Keep the 300 and move down a level to the standmount Neat Ultimatum MFS. I would of course make sure I get a home demo of the Neats , as I know the MFS is still capable of substantial bass. MFS users out there- how do they sound in a small room (13x12 ) and do they boom at all in the deepest bass. I would love to get a listen.
3. Change the 300 for a new style 250 and keep the MF5's.
What do you think sounds the best option of these 3 suggestions ? I love the MF5's and Neat Ultimatums as a whole. They have fantastic PR & T, are involving,detailed and soundstage really well. I really would like to keep the MF5's as they have fantastic bass and scale, but if the MFS's are really a better balance in my front room, then so be it.
Many thanks,
Rod
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by Emil F
Rod
I had Mezzo Utopias and that was the perfect room/speakers match in my 7,5x3,5m room. Note that they were a little bit bass light.
Now I'm in week 7 with the new Alto Utopia Be. Bass reproduction is near a live performance. On some tracks with extended bass there is a room issue, asking for a bigger room. Normal bass is not a problem.
Problem is the beryllium tweeter. Everything sounds so natural, so easy, not a sign of aggression. It is way ahead all the tweeters I heard before. For instance guitars sound better than live!? Here comes the problem. You can turn the volume up to 11 or 12 and the HF stay natural and relaxed. In the same time too much bass is coming from the bass driver. Too much for my room. Hopefully I'll change the house this year. Of course the speakers are not fully run in. This might change.
I think that you need nothing but SL2. If you have possibility, listen to Micro Utopia Be.
Emil
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by Dev B
Rod,
If it helps I have a 250 Mk2 that you can borrow to see if you 300 is the problem. It might be since the 300 has a much more powerful and stronger bass than the 250 Mk2. Send me a PT.
regards
Dev
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by Jean-Marc
I was facing the same problem as Rod when I decided to upgrade my speakers (system is CDS2/XPS/52/SC/135s): smallish and squarish (ouch) 12x12ft room (around 3,5m x 3,5m for those who use those decimal meters
).
As Neat is not even imported here in France, home demo was clearly out of question, so I settled on a fine s/h pair of IBLs. No bass boom with those little babies
One big plus is the space gain due to the speakers "glued" to the wall.
This however doen't put me off a pair of MFS one of these days when the room size and configuration will change.
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by NB
HI Rod,
Sorry I am entering this thread very late, I havn't spent long on the forum lately,
Send me a pt and I will catch up with you, the answer is simple!
Regards
NB
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by rod ayling
Gentlemen,
Thanks so much for all replies, what a fantastic forum this is ! Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. You know what with Easter and all that stuff.
Alex,
Thanks for the offer. May take you up on that. Where exactly are you based in Europe ? I would love to hear the MFS's strutting their stuff in a small room. I know from others including Bob that the MFS and MF5's can be used in smaller rooms, providing the room/spekaer interface is fine.
Steve - Thanks for the ideas. I use Fraim chips under the Neats at the moment and they helped, so this could be worth a try. May see you in Toys R us.
Emil- Good luck with the Focal-JMLabs and the house move ! I know a Naim fan Chris Thomas, rates the new Micro Utopia's very highly and is a contender in the quality standmount stakes. If my room can't handle the Neats , then I think I would seriously have to consider the SL2's, along with the other sonic ideas floating around my head.
Dev - Thank you so much for the 250-2 offer. I actually have a 200 which I use as a surround so amp and may experiment with this running the MF5. At this moment in time I really miss my 135's. The bass was leaner with these amps and although not perfect, did achieve a very good set up with the CDS3/252. In the long term, I wonder if its better to go MFS/300 or MF5/250-2 or perhaps in my room MFS/250-2. I've heard as well that the 300 is a 'much bigger sounding amp than the 250-2', so perhaps this could be the way to go. I think I need to address the room issues first, before I attempt this, as I could still have my cake and eat it !
Adam - Neat idea ! As you know I love the Neats and would definetly consider the MFS's before any other speaker. My MF5's are not as far away from the rear walls as yours, but are 2-3 feet away from the corners. Unfortunately they are only 4.5 feet apart. I know what you mean about a backwards move from floorstanders, I owned Allae's before the Mf5's and couldn't get to grips with the idea of downsizing to a mere standmount ( along with silly aesthetic concerns), but boy have I learnt a lesson. I still worry about the rear firing ports on the Neats causing room resonance problems, but quite a few Neat users do seem to sucessfully use them reasonably close to rear walls and side walls. Indeed in Neat literature, MFS's are described as being suitable for 'smaller domestic environments'.
Omer- The soundframe apparently just fits the bigger Ultimatums, but only just. Give or take room either side for an anorexic Amoeba. Long term I would'nt like such a tight fit, trying to fit a 38kg speaker onto such a platform, would require military type precision. If Mana allow you to use a soundbase or s/frame and then give you the option of a refund, I don't see the problem in trying a pair as such and if I then like the 'effect', me ordering a custom pair. I could pay for the posting first time round. I might well put that to them.
Jean-Marc- I know exactly what you mean about wall hugging speakers. My Neats are so far away from the wall, that one poor person who sits on the sofa can't see the TV. It is nice to reclaim room space and be able to look out of the window and things like that !
NB - So at last you can spare us some time on the forum ! Its alright we don't need you , you go back to listening to your silly little 552. I know its the answer and thats why I am sick with jealousy ! I will PT you soon.
Once again guys, thanks very much for all replies.
Regards,
Rod
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by Hawk
Evening Rod! or should i say morning? I'd be interested in how you get on with the 200 and how that effects your problem... Also there is a second offer of a 250-2 here to try if you need it... might mean meeting in a dodgy layby somewhere though!?
I hate to admit it here but i did own some B&w speakers that came with different density foam bungs for 'tuning' the bass ports... never used them but they might still be in the loft somewhere.. your welcome to them if the smell from the socks gets too much!!
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by Emil F
quote:
Originally posted by NB:
HI Rod,
Sorry I am entering this thread very late, I havn't spent long on the forum lately,
Send me a pt and I will catch up with you, the answer is simple!
Regards
NB
Amazing how a 552 makes the answers simple, isn't it? What about 3x500 and DBLs?
Emil
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by rod ayling
Hi, Hawk,
I think the 200 should help the bass boom problem in theory, but obvioulsy this is only out of curiousity. If it doesn't do the job, can I have my money back !! Thanks also for the offer of a second hand 250-2. I don't know you wait around for months to try the new 250 in bi-amp mode against a 300 and then two come at once !
Thanks for the B&W bung offer as well, but at the moment I've got so many ideas to try, including athletic feet ridden socks, balls from Toy R Us , metal poles through floorboards, bass traps or a 552. I've had e-mails from Japan, Australia, Israel, Abu Dhabi, Paris and Sofia on this one. So when do I qualify for my first 3 tick rating forum post !
Thanks,
Rod
Posted on: 11 April 2004 by Robmark
Rod - hi again. See the thread "Jackin' the floor". Wooden floors do get 'loose' over time, and it would be worth while checking whether the joists or supports are loose.Tightening them up may well remove a large radiating panel from your listening environment (the floor)- before you go to the effort and expense of changing equipment. Just my 2c worth.
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by Nime
Tightening them up may well remove a large radiating panel from your listening environment (the floor)
Or remove a large bass absorber? Is it always a foregone conclusion that wooden floors radiate bass?
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by Nime
"Tightening them up may well remove a large radiating panel from your listening environment (the floor)"
Or remove a large bass absorber? Is it always a foregone conclusion that wooden floors radiate bass?
Nime
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by NB
Quote:-
NB - So at last you can spare us some time on the forum ! Its alright we don't need you , you go back to listening to your silly little 552. I know its the answer and thats why I am sick with jealousy ! I will PT you soon.
________________________________________________________________
That wasn't what I was going to suggest, but I will stay out of it as requested.
Hope you sort out the bass boom and get back to enjoying your music,
Regards
NB
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by Alex S.
Hi Rod,
I've sent you a PT too.
Alex
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by London Lad
Oh come on NB, what were you going to suggest ??? Please tell us !!
Graham.
Not a lad any longer and not from London!
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by rod ayling
Hi,NB
Quote :-
Oh come on NB, what were you going to suggest ??? Please tell us !!
Yes NB, please let us know what you were going to suggest. Sorry, I hope I did'nt offend you in anyway with my message last night. Apologies if I did, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Absolutely no offence meant and we always look forward to your views and comments .
I sent you a PT last night.
Thanks,
Rod
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by NB
Quote:-
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by NB:
HI Rod,
Sorry I am entering this thread very late, I havn't spent long on the forum lately,
Send me a pt and I will catch up with you, the answer is simple!
Regards
NB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amazing how a 552 makes the answers simple, isn't it? What about 3x500 and DBLs?
Emil
_______________________________________________________________
What I was going to suggest Emil is that the 300/MF5 combination has obviously overloaded the lower end. If Rod cannot tune out the bass boom with positioning,Mana, chips or something else then prehaps he should look at reverting to his 135's or a 250 mark 2.
I think people underestimate the real power of the 300 and I have just found out how much the 252 holds back the 300. I always thought the 252/300 combination was a good match but in reality the 252 is strangling the 300.
A 552 would be a sensible soloution but the cost of a 552 restricts this and the only other logical soloution is to swap the 300 with a 250!
Regards
NB
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by NB
Rod,
No offence taken, I always enjoy our chats. I have sent a brief Pt.
Time is short due to family, holidays etc.
Hope to reply much fuller soon.
Regards
NB
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by Emil F
quote:
Amazing how a 552 makes the answers simple, isn't it? What about 3x500 and DBLs?
Emil
_______________________________________________________________
What I was going to suggest Emil is that the 300/MF5 combination has obviously overloaded the lower end. If Rod cannot tune out the bass boom with positioning,Mana, chips or something else then prehaps he should look at reverting to his 135's or a 250 mark 2.
I think people underestimate the real power of the 300 and I have just found out how much the 252 holds back the 300. I always thought the 252/300 combination was a good match but in reality the 252 is strangling the 300.
A 552 would be a sensible soloution but the cost of a 552 restricts this and the only other logical soloution is to swap the 300 with a 250!
Regards
NB
NB has a point. Recently I tried my electronics with the small JMLab Chorus and for my surprise the bass was boomy. OK, I put them on two chairs, which wasn't the best isolation.
NB
I just wanted to point out that it's maybe upgrade time...
Emil
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by rod ayling:
Hi,
I recently became the proud owner of a used 300 power amp in conjunction with my CDS3/XPS2/252/ Neat Ultimatum MF5 set up.Unfortunately using the 300 has helped tip my speakers ( already close to teetering on the edge of bass dominance, depending on the records) into bass boom hell.
I use my rear ported Neats in a room measuring 13x12 feet on a suspended wooden floor. I bought the Neats used. It was amazing to see them for sale used , so soon after they had been released onto the market, so I took the risk of buying them , without a demo in my living room . I had of course heard them in my local dealers (with a view to buying them) before.
When I first got the Neats home I was using a CDS2/XPS2/52/Scap/135's. I was mightily impressed with what I heard, but found that on certain particulary deep bass recordings the bass could be overbearing. ( BTW, the Neats are about about 5 feet apart and 1-1.5 feet awat from the rear wall). After reading praise about Fraim chips on the forum, I decided to invest in a set and this helped quite alot in reducing the bass boom to tolerable levels , whilst opening up the treble/mid and making the speakers sounding faster. Only the deepest of bass tracks caused a problem e.g dance music seismic bass, but otherwise I was a happy bunny.
Upgraditus took hold and I went on a rather crazy spending spree resulting in a CDS3/252 and then the 300. I could'nt resist some ex-demo deals up for grabs, although of course I bought my CDS3 from my local dealer.
Everything was just getting better and better until I got the 300, which has sadly tipped the balance of the sound of the set up into overpowering bass mode again, only to a greater extent this time. The bass except on (60's/70's recordings) is dominating to such an extent, that the treble/mid are sounding sat upon and slowed down, that I'm not in a position to judge the merits of the 300.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to move the speakers back/forwards/sideways/toe in to any great degree ( there is a TV in the middle), as I just haven't got the room to play with. I've tried paving slabs and they did'nt work for me, (the Fraim chips did ),nor can I go down the seperate mains spur route. I'm certain its a room/speaker interface problem, which has always existed to some extent, but which I have just pushed to the limits.
Ok this is where you good people come in, as I see myself having 3 options :-
1. Persevere with the MF5's and try custom made Mana Soundbases under them. I've heard the Mana's can be very useful in tightening up the bass, as I suspect my suspended wooden floor is the culprit. Perhaps getting the speaker off the suspended floor, could help tame the problem. Fraim chips did help before and surely the Mana's with their greater isloation/decoupling could help to a greater extent. I don't want the Mana to alter the sound in any way, merely tame the bass.
2. Keep the 300 and move down a level to the standmount Neat Ultimatum MFS. I would of course make sure I get a home demo of the Neats , as I know the MFS is still capable of substantial bass. MFS users out there- how do they sound in a small room (13x12 ) and do they boom at all in the deepest bass. I would love to get a listen.
3. Change the 300 for a new style 250 and keep the MF5's.
What do you think sounds the best option of these 3 suggestions ? I love the MF5's and Neat Ultimatums as a whole. They have fantastic PR & T, are involving,detailed and soundstage really well. I really would like to keep the MF5's as they have fantastic bass and scale, but if the MFS's are really a better balance in my front room, then so be it.
Many thanks,
Rod
Hy ROD!It is of course right that a port on the rear of a speaker can have bad sound effect very near to a wall.(under 5 inch or so because the air cannot get out fast enough out of the box.But normally bass boom is
not an effect of rear port or of port generally,
because the booming frequencies are normaly inthe50 hertz area or higher and the frequencies out of bassport are far lower.
booming can mean two things:a speaker that moves to much quantity of air i na small room,
or a speaker in a wrong position.(standing waves,echoes out of room dimension,bad,listener
place,resonances from room furniture.
Imo discussion about ported and not ported speakers is a quite other discussion about
speaker/amp sound or different speakers.
Personally tried a lot of different speakers
and can not say that a ported design is more
boomy.(maybe my opinion is away
from others.)
O.J.
Posted on: 12 April 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by paul teasdale:
hi
the suggestions on the cardas website are very helpful if there is no restriction on where the speakers are placed in the room ie basically in a rectangular room the front of each speaker is one quarter of the width of the room away from the side walls and about four tenths of the length of the room from the back wall
The exact ratios are on the cardas website but using this formula this does make a big difference to the overall sound ie no bass boom ... speakers should be toed in though by ear (!) to sort out the best position re imaging
Toing in a speaker can change its off axis response concerning the listenerplace (depends on manufacturer recommandation and tweeter axis characteristics)of course toing in helps against standing waves.
what s said by cardas about room/wall dimensionm is
based on physical formulas and therefore correct,.....and it works,
O.J.
