uefa cup
Posted by: Trevor Newall on 26 March 2004
now that liverpool are out, who do the other forum footie fans think will win it?
my vote goes to inter milan.
TN
my vote goes to inter milan.
TN
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Top Cat
Celtic, so long as new boy Marshall is in goal.
Away the bhoys!
John
Away the bhoys!
John
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Top Cat
(Admittedly that was one tough match... I needed a drink afterwards to calm my nerves...)
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by seagull
Trevor,
You seem to imply that Liverpool were likely to win it.
You seem to imply that Liverpool were likely to win it.
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
You can be rest assured that Martin O'Neil producing another another impressive Euro campaign from Celtic's ragged collection of bargain basement players will not have gone unnoticed in Liverpool's boardroom.
Matthew
Matthew
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
You can be rest assured that Martin O'Neil producing another another impressive Euro campaign from Celtic's ragged collection of bargain basement players will not have gone unnoticed in Liverpool's boardroom.
Funnily enough I've just had that discussion with one of my colleagues who is a Celtic fan. He's now very concerned that O'squeal will move on. After 2 good European campaigns back-to-back Liverpool have got to be interested.
As a Rangers fan I'll certainly be glad to see the back of him...
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
He's wasted in Scotland and belongs in the Premiership.
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
He's wasted in Scotland and belongs in the Premiership.
Who cares, as long as he leaves.
They should bring back Barnes and Dalglish - I liked them as a management team...
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by TomK
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
He's wasted in Scotland and belongs in the Premiership.
What an arrogant load of shite.
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
Actually just simple facts Tom. Scotland is unarguably a minor league in footballing terms and as one of the most capable and promising managers in Europe O'Neil belongs where the major challenges are -- which is either the Premiership, La Liga or Serie A.
He has nothing left to prove in Scotland as he has already shown he can win the League at a canter and has hugely over-achieved in Europe with relatively meagre playing resources. Trying to win a major League championship, competing against the best in Big Cup, winning the World Cup for England or reviving a club like Liverpool are the sort of challenges he should be taking on at this stage in his career.
Matthew
He has nothing left to prove in Scotland as he has already shown he can win the League at a canter and has hugely over-achieved in Europe with relatively meagre playing resources. Trying to win a major League championship, competing against the best in Big Cup, winning the World Cup for England or reviving a club like Liverpool are the sort of challenges he should be taking on at this stage in his career.
Matthew
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Actually just simple facts Tom. Scotland is unarguably a minor league in footballing terms and as one of the most capable and promising managers in Europe O'Neil belongs where the major challenges are -- which is either the Premiership, La Liga or Serie A.
Bear in mind however that in the past O'Neil chose to move up from a Premiership side to Celtic.
quote:
He has nothing left to prove in Scotland as he has already shown he can win the League at a canter
Really? Perhaps this year but in the last 2 seasons Celtic only one one domestic trophy from the 6 on offer. My club, Rangers, won the other 5.
quote:
and has hugely over-achieved in Europe with relatively meagre playing resources. Trying to win a major League championship, competing against the best
Celtic have done quite a bit of that in the last couple of seasons.
quote:
winning the World Cup for England
Like an Irishman would want to do that...
quote:
or reviving a club like Liverpool are the sort of challenges he should be taking on at this stage in his career.
Perhaps he likes the challenge of gaining European success with a club from a "minor" league?
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Bhoyo
Matthew:
You troll, you. I hear MON dreams of a step up to the mighty West Ham.
See you in Europe.
Love,
Davie
You troll, you. I hear MON dreams of a step up to the mighty West Ham.
See you in Europe.
Love,
Davie
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
You Jockos are so touchy.
"Bear in mind however that in the past O'Neil chose to move up from a Premiership side to Celtic"
Celtic -- both the club and the situation he came into -- is obviously a big step up from Leicster.
Now, I think, it's time for him to move on and compete with the likes of ManYoo, Chelsea and Arsenal (if he choses to work in England) week in week out. Liverpool strikes me as the perfect job at this time for O'Neil.
Matthew
"Bear in mind however that in the past O'Neil chose to move up from a Premiership side to Celtic"
Celtic -- both the club and the situation he came into -- is obviously a big step up from Leicster.
Now, I think, it's time for him to move on and compete with the likes of ManYoo, Chelsea and Arsenal (if he choses to work in England) week in week out. Liverpool strikes me as the perfect job at this time for O'Neil.
Matthew
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Now, I think, it's time for him to move on and compete with the likes of ManYoo, Chelsea and Arsenal...
Instead of European ties with Juventus, Bayern, Boavista, Porto, Lyon, Barcelona...?
Of course, we should be talking about Celtic's great win, not MON's future.
However, this all raises the persistent question of where the Old Firm will end up playing. We all know the Scottish league is crap. Perhaps it would be better to move from the two-horse race in Scotland to the three-horse race in England. I still like the idea of the Atlantic League, and there is much behind-the-scenes activity going on right now about various other "restructuring" options.
As for England winning the World Cup under MON or anyone else, you really must stop sniffing the barmaid's apron.
Regards,
Davie
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
"Instead of European ties with Juventus, Bayern, Boavista, Porto, Lyon, Barcelona...?"
I said week in week out and also there is a difference between competing as an underdog in a cup run and competing as an equal with a team expected to be competetive at this level.
"However, this all raises the persistent question of where the Old Firm will end up playing"
In Scotland or a EuroLeague. If you are going to bugger up football you might as well go the whole hog and stick all teh big clubs together rather than the halfway house of just adding the 2 Scottish clubs to the English league.
BTW You may recall that Marco already almost certianly owes me a million pounds as his prediction that Celtic and Rangeres would be in the EPL by August 2004 now looks very unlikely.
"As for England winning the World Cup under MON or anyone else, you really must stop sniffing the barmaid's apron"
I am just quoting Patrick Barlcay -- a Scot and one of our most respected Football writers -- who said, and I quote, "It is almost inconcievable to me that England will not win at least one of Euro 2004 or the World Cup in 2006 and will at the very least be amongst the favourites for those events".
Matthew
I said week in week out and also there is a difference between competing as an underdog in a cup run and competing as an equal with a team expected to be competetive at this level.
"However, this all raises the persistent question of where the Old Firm will end up playing"
In Scotland or a EuroLeague. If you are going to bugger up football you might as well go the whole hog and stick all teh big clubs together rather than the halfway house of just adding the 2 Scottish clubs to the English league.
BTW You may recall that Marco already almost certianly owes me a million pounds as his prediction that Celtic and Rangeres would be in the EPL by August 2004 now looks very unlikely.
"As for England winning the World Cup under MON or anyone else, you really must stop sniffing the barmaid's apron"
I am just quoting Patrick Barlcay -- a Scot and one of our most respected Football writers -- who said, and I quote, "It is almost inconcievable to me that England will not win at least one of Euro 2004 or the World Cup in 2006 and will at the very least be amongst the favourites for those events".
Matthew
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Bhoyo
Matthew:
I know you said "week in, week out." My point was that, with Celtic, he has been able to enjoy two superb European seasons, and there's no reason for him to forgo a third for the dubious delights of cleaning up after Houllier. And Celtic don't have to prove to anyone, with the possible exception of some English curmudgeons, that they have to be regarded as equals and "competitive at this level." When was the last time they lost a European game at home? Buggered if I know, but it was a while ago.
A European league of some description is obviously what the big, greedy powers want. You know, because we've been over this before, that I don't want to see Celtic in the English league. I'm not totally convinced by the talk of superleagues either, but that's the way the wind is blowing.
I'm a big fan of Patrick Barclay, but he's been in England too long. The national capacity for self-delusion is obviously contagious. Either that or he's winding you up. When I watch Arsenal, Chelsea or ManYoo, it's not usually Englishmen who catch the eye.
Davie
I know you said "week in, week out." My point was that, with Celtic, he has been able to enjoy two superb European seasons, and there's no reason for him to forgo a third for the dubious delights of cleaning up after Houllier. And Celtic don't have to prove to anyone, with the possible exception of some English curmudgeons, that they have to be regarded as equals and "competitive at this level." When was the last time they lost a European game at home? Buggered if I know, but it was a while ago.
A European league of some description is obviously what the big, greedy powers want. You know, because we've been over this before, that I don't want to see Celtic in the English league. I'm not totally convinced by the talk of superleagues either, but that's the way the wind is blowing.
I'm a big fan of Patrick Barclay, but he's been in England too long. The national capacity for self-delusion is obviously contagious. Either that or he's winding you up. When I watch Arsenal, Chelsea or ManYoo, it's not usually Englishmen who catch the eye.
Davie
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
Davie,
"with Celtic, he has been able to enjoy two superb European seasons, and there's no reason for him to forgo a third for the dubious delights of cleaning up after Houllier"
Take of those green shamrock shaped spectacles!
"And Celtic don't have to prove to anyone, with the possible exception of some English curmudgeons, that they have to be regarded as equals and "competitive at this level."
Celtic are not competitive with the top clubs in Europe. They, whatever their success which has been exceptional over the last few years, are fundamentalyl more like, say, Porto than they are AC Milan, Arsenal, Real, Man Yoo, Juventus, etc.
"I don't want to see Celtic in the English league. I'm not totally convinced by the talk of superleagues either, but that's the way the wind is blowing"
I agree -- I think English football is much worse from the fact that Nottingham Forest or Aston Vulla can never win league titles or european cups again. The only people who don't think this are fans of Arsenal, ManYoo, and so on.
Matthew
"with Celtic, he has been able to enjoy two superb European seasons, and there's no reason for him to forgo a third for the dubious delights of cleaning up after Houllier"
Take of those green shamrock shaped spectacles!
"And Celtic don't have to prove to anyone, with the possible exception of some English curmudgeons, that they have to be regarded as equals and "competitive at this level."
Celtic are not competitive with the top clubs in Europe. They, whatever their success which has been exceptional over the last few years, are fundamentalyl more like, say, Porto than they are AC Milan, Arsenal, Real, Man Yoo, Juventus, etc.
"I don't want to see Celtic in the English league. I'm not totally convinced by the talk of superleagues either, but that's the way the wind is blowing"
I agree -- I think English football is much worse from the fact that Nottingham Forest or Aston Vulla can never win league titles or european cups again. The only people who don't think this are fans of Arsenal, ManYoo, and so on.
Matthew
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by long-time-dead
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
He has nothing left to prove in Scotland as he has already shown he can win the League at a canter.....
Just like he didn't do last year. Look at the stats of the last two seasons - won virtually nothing but managed to get to the UEFA Cup Final. O'Neill has a team that is ideally geared for European Cup Football - height, strength and a bit of skill/flair.
This season's runaway league success is due to the restructuring at Rangers and the emphasis on youth there - Celtic have yet to experience this.
Everyone knocks Scottish football but the fac tis simple - there is virtually no TV money to support the teams.
Oh yes, and Alex Ferguson is still raving about his team's involvement in Europe (not forgetting the 'mighty' Liverpool)
As a Rangers fan, I sincerely hope that Celtic go to the final and avenge last year's defeat. Scottish football will benefit !!
Let's be honest - Leicester (O'Neill's previous employers) had players in Europe after Man U !!
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by long-time-dead
One more point to consider - the Premiershipp do not want Rangers or Celtic there because they are scared of them winning something when the cash differential stops. Look at previous results between SPL and Premiership clubs in competitive games.
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by matthewr
If I had a Haddock I could knock myself up a nice fish supper with all the shoulder born chips in this thread.
Scottish football is roughly equivalent to Portugal and the Netherlands and Rangers and Celtic are in similar situations to Porto and Benfica and PSV and Ajax (except they are, in recent times, conspicuously bad at producing young players). Yes Rangers and Celtic are big clubs with long histories and a large fanbase but so are lots of other clubs so, I am inclined to ask, what?
The whole Old Firm in the Prem says a lot about Scottish inferority complexes and paranoia with regard to England more than anything else and is frankly ludicrous. It also says much about (certain elements of) Old Firm fans that they are quite happy to destroy the long tradition of football in Scotland for the sake of playing in England. Can you imagine, for example, a Dutchman saying PSV should be in the English Premiership?
"As a Rangers fan, I sincerely hope that Celtic go to the final and avenge last year's defeat"
FWIW Most of the Rangers and Celtic fans I know would disown you for saying that.
Matthew
Scottish football is roughly equivalent to Portugal and the Netherlands and Rangers and Celtic are in similar situations to Porto and Benfica and PSV and Ajax (except they are, in recent times, conspicuously bad at producing young players). Yes Rangers and Celtic are big clubs with long histories and a large fanbase but so are lots of other clubs so, I am inclined to ask, what?
The whole Old Firm in the Prem says a lot about Scottish inferority complexes and paranoia with regard to England more than anything else and is frankly ludicrous. It also says much about (certain elements of) Old Firm fans that they are quite happy to destroy the long tradition of football in Scotland for the sake of playing in England. Can you imagine, for example, a Dutchman saying PSV should be in the English Premiership?
"As a Rangers fan, I sincerely hope that Celtic go to the final and avenge last year's defeat"
FWIW Most of the Rangers and Celtic fans I know would disown you for saying that.
Matthew
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Celtic are not competitive with the top clubs in Europe. They, whatever their success which has been exceptional over the last few years, are fundamentalyl more like, say, Porto than they are AC Milan, Arsenal, Real, Man Yoo, Juventus, etc.
Matthew:
As has happened before, we seem to agree more than we differ, BUT...
If, for the sake of argument, I accept that Celtic are not fundamentally like the big teams you mention, the prime reason is because of the absence of TV money (as long-time-dead says). It's certainly not for want of a large support prepared to pay whatever the asking price for season tickets, superb stadium, sound corporate structure (these things are important) etc. With the same financial resources available to even middling English clubs, there can be little doubt that Celtic and Rangers would be completely competitive.
Which brings us back to the dreaded "where do the Old Firm go next" question.
Regards,
Davie
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Scottish football is roughly equivalent to Portugal and the Netherlands and Rangers and Celtic are in similar situations to Porto and Benfica and PSV and Ajax (except they are, in recent times, conspicuously bad at producing young players).
Completely agree with the first part of that, hence the attraction of the Atlantic League. Throw in Belgium and the Scandinavians, and you've got something worth considering.
But young players: How about Pearson, Kennedy, Miller and a certain David Marshall? Yes, there's been a drought in recent years, but all is not lost.
Anyway, I'm still dreaming of Ronaldinho in green and white hoops...
Davie (shoulders completely free of chips)
Posted on: 26 March 2004 by TomK
He has transformed a club that's been a virtual laughing stock for the best part of 20 years and overturned Rangers' dominance in a surprisingly short time. Obviously it's coincided with the Gers' collapse due to financial mismanagement but he's also established the beginnings of some sort of European profile for them and it pains me as a Bear to say that. I've no doubt he'll end up in a bigger league but it's so symptomatic of English arrogance to assume the English league is where anyone would want to be. Ask fans of Leeds, Blackburn, and Liverpool just how poor our big teams are.
Posted on: 27 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bhoyo:
But young players: How about Pearson,
Produced by Motherwell - not Celtic.
Posted on: 27 March 2004 by matthewr
"it's so symptomatic of English arrogance to assume the English league is where anyone would want to be"
Or rather its so symptomatic of some -- though not all as evidenced by this thread -- Scots to cry "English arrogance" as early and as often as possible.
Matthew
Or rather its so symptomatic of some -- though not all as evidenced by this thread -- Scots to cry "English arrogance" as early and as often as possible.
Matthew
Posted on: 27 March 2004 by long-time-dead
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Or rather its so symptomatic of some Scots to cry "English arrogance" as early and as often as possible.
I believe that this all started a short time after 1966.
