uefa cup
Posted by: Trevor Newall on 26 March 2004
now that liverpool are out, who do the other forum footie fans think will win it?
my vote goes to inter milan.
TN
my vote goes to inter milan.
TN
Posted on: 27 March 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Dixon:
One G. Souness, fresh from success as the manager of Rangers, bombed at Anfield.
There's strong evidence for the oft-stated case that Watty Smith was the man at Rangers, and that S**ness was a figurehead. He was useful for convincing Butcher and the other early signings to head north, but was a disaster at man-management, as well as being an all-round prick. No one in Scotland, with the possible exception of his family, liked S**ness before he took the job at Ibrox. He was an arrogant thug as a player, and hasn't changed as a manager. All my bluenosed pals were, to say the least, conflicted by his arrival - even if they were delighted at the 10 years of dominance that coincided with it.
Davie
Posted on: 28 March 2004 by Bhoyo
Patrick
I thought Smith did reasonably well at Everton, and would have done better if the board hadn't sold all his best players without asking him!
And the fact that the Chocolate Soldier could be a great player in a truly great team made his arrogance and thuggery even more unforgivable. He was a hammer thrower in England, in Italy, in a Scotland jersey and at Rangers (where he was sent off in his first game in charge).
Davie
I thought Smith did reasonably well at Everton, and would have done better if the board hadn't sold all his best players without asking him!
And the fact that the Chocolate Soldier could be a great player in a truly great team made his arrogance and thuggery even more unforgivable. He was a hammer thrower in England, in Italy, in a Scotland jersey and at Rangers (where he was sent off in his first game in charge).
Davie
Posted on: 29 March 2004 by Trevor Newall
as a liverpool supporter, I'm naturally biased, and as such thought they would win the tournament.
inter are now my tip to lift the cup, although I have always had a soft spot for celtic since the dalgleish era.
there is also a great relationship between liverpool and celtic fans.
wouldn't want to see the old firm in the premiership, but I think that celtic would do rather well.
it must be total pants being a rangers supporter these days, especially after sunday's result!
TN
inter are now my tip to lift the cup, although I have always had a soft spot for celtic since the dalgleish era.
there is also a great relationship between liverpool and celtic fans.
wouldn't want to see the old firm in the premiership, but I think that celtic would do rather well.
it must be total pants being a rangers supporter these days, especially after sunday's result!
TN
Posted on: 29 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Trevor Newall:
it must be total pants being a rangers supporter these days, especially after sunday's result!
I take it "these days" means this season, seeing as we won the treble last season and both cups the season before - and during the same 2 seasons Celtic only won one trophy.
I actually found Sundays game encouraging as at one point Rangers had 6 Scottish players on and also dominated the play for much of the game - although it was against a tired looking Celtic side. If we can get our defence sorted out and get one decent midfielded and a decent striker we won't be looking to bad.
The best thing about Sunday's game was of course that it'll be Larsson's last visit to Ibrox in a Celtic top! Celtic's new manager will have a lot of work to do next season with an aging squad and no Larsson...
Posted on: 29 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Lees:
So, just the defence, midfield and attack then.
Er, yes.
quote:
Alternatively you could wait for the Celtic team to die of old age...
Won't be long now. Bye, bye Henrik - you won't be missed...
Posted on: 29 March 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
Bye, bye Henrik - you won't be missed...
Oh yes you will.
There'll come a time when even les nez bleus will wax lyrical about the greatness that was Henrik.
Anyway, I'm confident that a worthy successor will be found and that your misery will continue. Sorry Steve. (No I'm not, but you get the idea.)
Best,
Davie
Posted on: 29 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bhoyo:
There'll come a time when even les nez bleus will wax lyrical about the greatness that was Henrik.
Er, no.
quote:
Anyway, I'm confident that a worthy successor will be found and that your misery will continue. Sorry Steve. (No I'm not, but you get the idea.)
I'll be surprised if O'Neill's successor will be able to get someone decent with the £3.50 that the Celtic board will allow him to spend.
Posted on: 30 March 2004 by long-time-dead
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
I'll be surprised if O'Neill's successor will be able to get someone decent with the £3.50 that the Celtic board will allow him to spend.
Not another share issue..........
Posted on: 30 March 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
<<There'll come a time when even les nez bleus will wax lyrical about the greatness that was Henrik.>>
Er, no.
A small wager, Steve? It'll have to be small; I'm on Celtic-style wages.
I've seen and heard people either side of the great divide get all misty-eyed about Slim Jim and Jinky, for example.
So let's assess this in, say, 25 years from or so. If, in that time, anyone of the Ibrox persuasion has said something nice about Henrik The Great, mine's a pint.
Davie
Posted on: 30 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bhoyo:
If, in that time, anyone of the Ibrox persuasion has said something nice about Henrik The Great, mine's a pint.
I've got something nice to say to him already!
Cheerio...
Posted on: 30 March 2004 by long-time-dead
What about :
Good riddance ?
Saying that, I have a horrible feeling that he will sign for a club that we will meet in the UEFA Cup next season.......... please tell me that I am wrong.
Good riddance ?
Saying that, I have a horrible feeling that he will sign for a club that we will meet in the UEFA Cup next season.......... please tell me that I am wrong.
Posted on: 30 March 2004 by long-time-dead
Just thought of something REALLY nice about Henrik !!!!
His wife is nicer looking (IMO) than Mrs. Mols.
His wife is nicer looking (IMO) than Mrs. Mols.
Posted on: 30 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Saying that, I have a horrible feeling that he will sign for a club that we will meet in the UEFA Cup next season.......... please tell me that I am wrong.
It does have a certain inevitability about it.
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Trevor Newall
steve.
the only reason celtic didn't win any domestic trophies last season was because of their exertions in the uefa cup.
celtic's exit from both domestic cup competitions occurred as a direct result of o'neil prioritising success in europe.
also, the celtic squad is small compared to other european clubs, and as such it was a miraculous achievement that they managed to push rangers all the way for the title whilst competing in europe and reaching the uefa cup final.
I have little doubt that had celtic been knocked out of the uefa cup earlier, last season would have been a different story as far as the league and cup competitions were concerned.
also, dick advocaat did well when competing with the likes of jo venglos and john barnes.
celtic were in disarray, and this is why rangers won so many trophies during that time.
it was a different story when o'neil arrived.
rangers did nothing much until burke came on, and by that time celtic were, as you say, tired.
had celtic not just played barcelona, and REALLY needed to win the game, rangers would have been beaten more convincingly.
I don't think rangers will win the league until a suitable replacement for amoruso and ferguson is found, and also a 30 goal-a-season striker.
a tall order indeed.
celtic, on the other hand, are a largely 'sorted' side, apart from the need to strengthen the squad in general, and of course having to deal with the imminent departure of larsson.
however, history dictates that a suitable replacement for him will be found, as has nearly always been the case at celtic over the years when they lose a top striker.
I'm also pretty sure o'neil will be staying put for the near future.
much as it pains me to say it, liverpool are not in a position to offer him as much potential success as celtic because arsenal, man utd, and chelsea, are the major players in england, and will be for some time.
their financial muscle and footballing infrastructure are in a different league.
why settle for (at the very best) third place in the premiership, maybe the odd cup win, and an appearance in the champions league every season or so, when he can achieve much more with celtic?
this celtic team are on a journey, and o'neil won't leave until they reach their destination...whatever he feels that might be.
so you'd rather rangers competed against a weakened celtic side to win trophies rather than try to match their quality?
I say larsson stays and rangers sign ronaldo!
TN
[This message was edited by Trevor Newall on Mon 05 April 2004 at 10:26.]
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
I take it "these days" means this season, seeing as we won the treble last season and both cups the season before - and during the same 2 seasons Celtic only won one trophy.
the only reason celtic didn't win any domestic trophies last season was because of their exertions in the uefa cup.
celtic's exit from both domestic cup competitions occurred as a direct result of o'neil prioritising success in europe.
also, the celtic squad is small compared to other european clubs, and as such it was a miraculous achievement that they managed to push rangers all the way for the title whilst competing in europe and reaching the uefa cup final.
I have little doubt that had celtic been knocked out of the uefa cup earlier, last season would have been a different story as far as the league and cup competitions were concerned.
also, dick advocaat did well when competing with the likes of jo venglos and john barnes.
celtic were in disarray, and this is why rangers won so many trophies during that time.
it was a different story when o'neil arrived.
quote:
I actually found Sundays game encouraging as at one point Rangers had 6 Scottish players on and also dominated the play for much of the game - although it was against a tired looking Celtic side. If we can get our defence sorted out and get one decent midfielded and a decent striker we won't be looking to bad.
rangers did nothing much until burke came on, and by that time celtic were, as you say, tired.
had celtic not just played barcelona, and REALLY needed to win the game, rangers would have been beaten more convincingly.
I don't think rangers will win the league until a suitable replacement for amoruso and ferguson is found, and also a 30 goal-a-season striker.
a tall order indeed.
celtic, on the other hand, are a largely 'sorted' side, apart from the need to strengthen the squad in general, and of course having to deal with the imminent departure of larsson.
however, history dictates that a suitable replacement for him will be found, as has nearly always been the case at celtic over the years when they lose a top striker.
I'm also pretty sure o'neil will be staying put for the near future.
much as it pains me to say it, liverpool are not in a position to offer him as much potential success as celtic because arsenal, man utd, and chelsea, are the major players in england, and will be for some time.
their financial muscle and footballing infrastructure are in a different league.
why settle for (at the very best) third place in the premiership, maybe the odd cup win, and an appearance in the champions league every season or so, when he can achieve much more with celtic?
this celtic team are on a journey, and o'neil won't leave until they reach their destination...whatever he feels that might be.
quote:
The best thing about Sunday's game was of course that it'll be Larsson's last visit to Ibrox in a Celtic top!
so you'd rather rangers competed against a weakened celtic side to win trophies rather than try to match their quality?
I say larsson stays and rangers sign ronaldo!
TN
[This message was edited by Trevor Newall on Mon 05 April 2004 at 10:26.]
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Trevor Newall:
the only reason celtic didn't win any domestic trophies last season was because of their exertions in the uefa cup.
The Rangers side last season were probably the worst side ever to win a domestic Scottish treble and that against the strongest Celtic side for a long, long time.
Celtic could (and probably should) have at least one the league last season.
quote:
celtic, on the other hand, are a largely 'sorted' side, apart from the need to strengthen the squad in general, and of course having to deal with the imminent departure of larsson.
There are a lot of key Celtic players out contract at the end of next season plus it's an aging side generally which means whoever is in charge will have a lot of work to do over the next 12 months.
quote:quote:
The best thing about Sunday's game was of course that it'll be Larsson's last visit to Ibrox in a Celtic top!
so you'd rather rangers competed against a weakened celtic side to win trophies rather than try to match their quality?
I say larsson stays and rangers sign ronaldo!
That would be nice but the reality is that we're unlikely to see a striker of Larsson's quality in Scotland for quite a while.
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Trevor Newall
steve.
the rangers side last season, whilst not the best ever, were still packed with talent.
with players like klos, numan, amoruso, ferguson, arteta, and de boer, they were a difficult team to beat, and this was reflected in the results the team achieved domestically.
celtic, like you say, should have won the league, but they didn't because of dropping points against lower league opposition after coming back from playing difficult european fixtures.
had celtic not been involved in those games, I firmly believe they wouldn't have lost the league.
it has little to do with how arguably bad you say rangers were.
that celtic have wrapped up the league so early this season and still managed to win in europe speaks volumes for the mental attitude of the players and the managerial ability of martin o'neil.
this demonstrates that real progress has been made compared to last year and augurs well for this season's uefa cup campaign.
and you think they won't sign new contracts?
i think they'll sign on the dotted line toute suite at the end of this season, particularly if celtic win the uefa cup and scottish cup.
the league of course is won.
where else would these players get the opportunity for such success?
you seem to be under the impression that o'neil won't be in charge of celtic next season.
I think you are wrong.
as far as the premiership is concerned, the only clubs where he could achieve more success than with celtic are arsenal, man utd and chelsea.
any other club in the premiership would be for him a downgrade.
of the three above, the chelsea job is the only realistic possibility, as the other two clubs have managers who are 'in with the bricks'.
should o'neil be offered the chelsea job, then he'd be a fool not to grab it with both hands.
the 'sleeping giant' aspect of chelsea together with the chance to spend millions in the transfer market and work with an abundance of world class players would be an offer too tempting to refuse.
but as I don't see that happening, and because I feel that o'neil doesn't want to work abroad at this particular stage in his career, I think he'll still be at celtic next season.
much will depend on what he's given as a transfer budget, but as long as larsson is replaced by another 30 goal-a-season striker (it doesn't have to cost megabucks), and o'neil gets the chance to strengthen the team in other crucial areas, I think he'll relish the opportunity to take celtic further in the champions league and to go for another domestic treble.
o'neil still has unfulfilled goals to achieve with celtic and he won't leave until they've been fulfilled.
such is his mentality.
with regard to the "ageing side" thing, marshall, kennedy, balde, laursen, agathe, petrov, pearson, beattie, and maloney won't be collecting their pension anytime soon.
perhaps.
but who's to say o'neil can't find another £650,000 wonder boy?
his record in the transfer market indicates that astute buys represent a significant part of his managerial repertoire.
I expect whoever replaces larsson to be a sensation and to score the goals that help celtic win the league again next season!
TN
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
The Rangers side last season were probably the worst side ever to win a domestic Scottish treble and that against the strongest Celtic side for a long, long time.
the rangers side last season, whilst not the best ever, were still packed with talent.
with players like klos, numan, amoruso, ferguson, arteta, and de boer, they were a difficult team to beat, and this was reflected in the results the team achieved domestically.
celtic, like you say, should have won the league, but they didn't because of dropping points against lower league opposition after coming back from playing difficult european fixtures.
had celtic not been involved in those games, I firmly believe they wouldn't have lost the league.
it has little to do with how arguably bad you say rangers were.
that celtic have wrapped up the league so early this season and still managed to win in europe speaks volumes for the mental attitude of the players and the managerial ability of martin o'neil.
this demonstrates that real progress has been made compared to last year and augurs well for this season's uefa cup campaign.
quote:
There are a lot of key Celtic players out contract at the end of next season
and you think they won't sign new contracts?
i think they'll sign on the dotted line toute suite at the end of this season, particularly if celtic win the uefa cup and scottish cup.
the league of course is won.
where else would these players get the opportunity for such success?
quote:
plus it's an aging side generally which means whoever is in charge will have a lot of work to do over the next 12 months.
you seem to be under the impression that o'neil won't be in charge of celtic next season.
I think you are wrong.
as far as the premiership is concerned, the only clubs where he could achieve more success than with celtic are arsenal, man utd and chelsea.
any other club in the premiership would be for him a downgrade.
of the three above, the chelsea job is the only realistic possibility, as the other two clubs have managers who are 'in with the bricks'.
should o'neil be offered the chelsea job, then he'd be a fool not to grab it with both hands.
the 'sleeping giant' aspect of chelsea together with the chance to spend millions in the transfer market and work with an abundance of world class players would be an offer too tempting to refuse.
but as I don't see that happening, and because I feel that o'neil doesn't want to work abroad at this particular stage in his career, I think he'll still be at celtic next season.
much will depend on what he's given as a transfer budget, but as long as larsson is replaced by another 30 goal-a-season striker (it doesn't have to cost megabucks), and o'neil gets the chance to strengthen the team in other crucial areas, I think he'll relish the opportunity to take celtic further in the champions league and to go for another domestic treble.
o'neil still has unfulfilled goals to achieve with celtic and he won't leave until they've been fulfilled.
such is his mentality.
with regard to the "ageing side" thing, marshall, kennedy, balde, laursen, agathe, petrov, pearson, beattie, and maloney won't be collecting their pension anytime soon.
quote:
That would be nice but the reality is that we're unlikely to see a striker of Larsson's quality in Scotland for quite a while.
perhaps.
but who's to say o'neil can't find another £650,000 wonder boy?
his record in the transfer market indicates that astute buys represent a significant part of his managerial repertoire.
I expect whoever replaces larsson to be a sensation and to score the goals that help celtic win the league again next season!
TN
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by matthewr
"the only clubs where he could achieve more success than with celtic are arsenal, man utd and chelsea. any other club in the premiership would be for him a downgrade"
With Celtic will never seriously compete in the Champions League -- with Liverpool he might.
Also winning the Premiership with a team that hasn't won it -- say Newcastle -- would be a major achievment and a fitting enhancement to his career to this point.
"should o'neil be offered the chelsea job, then he'd be a fool not to grab it with both hands"
I'd be really surprised if he took the Chelsea job. He has a history of picking his jobs very carefully and having watched what is happening to Ranieri I think he'll stay well clear. He would certainly go into the job demanding complete control over which players are bought and sold -- something he is unlikely to get.
The Liverpool job seems much more his cup of tea. They are much better people to work for and reviving Liverpool is much more the sort of task worthy of O'Neil's ability and his inate decency at this point.
BTW Chelsea are not "sleeping giants". IIRC in the last 50 years they have won a couple of FA Cups and a Cup Winners Cup which makes them a mid-ranking English side.
Matthew
With Celtic will never seriously compete in the Champions League -- with Liverpool he might.
Also winning the Premiership with a team that hasn't won it -- say Newcastle -- would be a major achievment and a fitting enhancement to his career to this point.
"should o'neil be offered the chelsea job, then he'd be a fool not to grab it with both hands"
I'd be really surprised if he took the Chelsea job. He has a history of picking his jobs very carefully and having watched what is happening to Ranieri I think he'll stay well clear. He would certainly go into the job demanding complete control over which players are bought and sold -- something he is unlikely to get.
The Liverpool job seems much more his cup of tea. They are much better people to work for and reviving Liverpool is much more the sort of task worthy of O'Neil's ability and his inate decency at this point.
BTW Chelsea are not "sleeping giants". IIRC in the last 50 years they have won a couple of FA Cups and a Cup Winners Cup which makes them a mid-ranking English side.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by matthewr
BTW Next years UEFA cup will be seeded and Millwall, being the Cup Winners from one of the major leagues, will be seeded. This means that they will very likely get a winnable 1st round draw against the likes of Barry Town and progess to the new Champions League style group stage. This will guarantee them 6 games in Europe.
So you may well see Millwall seeded ahead of Scotland's entry -- possibly even Celtic or Rangers if they manage their traditional pre-Qualifying exit from Big Cup.
Matthew
So you may well see Millwall seeded ahead of Scotland's entry -- possibly even Celtic or Rangers if they manage their traditional pre-Qualifying exit from Big Cup.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by matthewr
Although Ray Wilkins has got more coaching badges than Houllier's got "promising" 19 year old Frenchmen.
Matthew
Matthew
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Trevor Newall
matthew.
I agree, but if o'neil was offered the job, I think he would take it.
right now the chelsea job is a once in a lifetime opportunity for any manager of o'neil's ability.
getting the chance to sign ANY player in the world, regardless of cost, and to construct a team on that basis is something that can arguably only happen at three clubs in the world.
chelsea are at the moment one of them.
can you imagine the level of success o'neil could achieve by having access to a team full of world class players?
I believe he would take chelsea to the same level as real madrid, and maintain that level consistently for a number of years.
with regard to the ranieri issue, I don't think o'neil would suffer the same fate.
abramovich wants the chelsea manager to be a 'big name', as the players are.
he likes having the best.
ranieri, whilst talented, isn't a 'big name' manager, and neither is he the best.
however, o'neil is right up there with the most talented managers available, and it would be seen as a major coop for chelsea to land him.
I agree about the better people bit, but much as I hate to admit it, these days liverpool can’t offer o'neil the opportuity of any more success than he could get at celtic, providing he gets a decent transfer budget to work with.
if celtic win the uefa and scottish cup, and with the league already in the bag, I think the board will give him a decent share of the profits to spend on strengthening the team.
in that scenario, there is no reason why celtic under o'neil can't be more successful than liverpool under o'neil.
look at it this way: both teams are capable of winning things like the uefa cup, but would have absolutely no chance of winning the champions league, where at best both would do well to reach the quarter finals.
another point worth noting is that o'neil is guaranteed champions league football every season with celtic (whilst there are two representatives allocated from the SPL).
the same cannot be said for liverpool or newcastle.
so all that aside, what offers greater satisfaction, or is the greater achievement for o'neil: finishing third in the premiership with liverpool or first in the SPL with celtic?
would winning the F.A cup necessarily be any more rewarding for him than winning the scottish cup?
managing man utd, arsenal, or chelsea offers him a different proposition.
with any of those teams he would have the chance of not only winning the premiership, but also the champions league.
this is the kind of level o'neil will be aiming for when he leaves celtic.
I said "sleeping giants" because they now have the finances to compete with the big boys and the potential to translate this into success on the pitch and win trophies on a regular basis, which hasn't been the case in recent years.
they also have a massive fan base, probably as big as arsenal's.
in the league it used to be a two-horse race between man utd and arsenal.
thanks to abramovich, it's now a three-horse one.
chelsea now have the ability to realise their potential, and that's why I referred to them as sleeping giants.
TN
[This message was edited by Trevor Newall on Mon 05 April 2004 at 15:33.]
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
I'd be really surprised if he took the Chelsea job. He has a history of picking his jobs very carefully and having watched what is happening to Ranieri I think he'll stay well clear.
I agree, but if o'neil was offered the job, I think he would take it.
right now the chelsea job is a once in a lifetime opportunity for any manager of o'neil's ability.
getting the chance to sign ANY player in the world, regardless of cost, and to construct a team on that basis is something that can arguably only happen at three clubs in the world.
chelsea are at the moment one of them.
can you imagine the level of success o'neil could achieve by having access to a team full of world class players?
I believe he would take chelsea to the same level as real madrid, and maintain that level consistently for a number of years.
with regard to the ranieri issue, I don't think o'neil would suffer the same fate.
abramovich wants the chelsea manager to be a 'big name', as the players are.
he likes having the best.
ranieri, whilst talented, isn't a 'big name' manager, and neither is he the best.
however, o'neil is right up there with the most talented managers available, and it would be seen as a major coop for chelsea to land him.
quote:
The Liverpool job seems much more his cup of tea. They are much better people to work for and reviving Liverpool is much more the sort of task worth of O'Neil's ability and his inate decency at this point.
I agree about the better people bit, but much as I hate to admit it, these days liverpool can’t offer o'neil the opportuity of any more success than he could get at celtic, providing he gets a decent transfer budget to work with.
if celtic win the uefa and scottish cup, and with the league already in the bag, I think the board will give him a decent share of the profits to spend on strengthening the team.
in that scenario, there is no reason why celtic under o'neil can't be more successful than liverpool under o'neil.
look at it this way: both teams are capable of winning things like the uefa cup, but would have absolutely no chance of winning the champions league, where at best both would do well to reach the quarter finals.
another point worth noting is that o'neil is guaranteed champions league football every season with celtic (whilst there are two representatives allocated from the SPL).
the same cannot be said for liverpool or newcastle.
so all that aside, what offers greater satisfaction, or is the greater achievement for o'neil: finishing third in the premiership with liverpool or first in the SPL with celtic?
would winning the F.A cup necessarily be any more rewarding for him than winning the scottish cup?
managing man utd, arsenal, or chelsea offers him a different proposition.
with any of those teams he would have the chance of not only winning the premiership, but also the champions league.
this is the kind of level o'neil will be aiming for when he leaves celtic.
quote:
BTW Chelsea are not "sleeping giants". IIRC in the last 50 years they have won a couple of FA Cups and a Cup Winners Cup which makes them a mid-ranking English side.
I said "sleeping giants" because they now have the finances to compete with the big boys and the potential to translate this into success on the pitch and win trophies on a regular basis, which hasn't been the case in recent years.
they also have a massive fan base, probably as big as arsenal's.
in the league it used to be a two-horse race between man utd and arsenal.
thanks to abramovich, it's now a three-horse one.
chelsea now have the ability to realise their potential, and that's why I referred to them as sleeping giants.
TN
[This message was edited by Trevor Newall on Mon 05 April 2004 at 15:33.]
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by matthewr
"getting the chance to sign ANY player in the world, regardless of cost"
That's not true though. Chelsea almost certainly couldn't sign Thierry Henry for example, or Steven Gerrard, or Raul, or Nistelrooy, or Kaka, etc. They can compete for the best players which they didn;t used to be but given the level of renumeration such players already enjoy money is far from everything.
"to construct a team on that basis is something that can arguably only happen at three clubs in the world. chelsea are at the moment one of them"
Although Chelsea clearly have elevated themselves to a high level my list would include ManYoo, Arsenal, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juvenuts, AC Milan, Inter and Bayern Munich in it as well. It's not quite the exclusive club you seem to imagine.
"can you imagine the level of success o'neil could achieve by having access to a team full of world class players?"
Yes. In the right situation and with a bit of luck I beleive he will be able to achieve a level of success similar to that achieved by, say, Hector Cuper. If he continues at that level for a few more years then we might eventually elevate him into the exalted company of the likes of Bobby Robson, Arsene Wenger, Fabio Capella, Sven, etc. A lifetime and we can put him with Bob Paisley, Ferguson, Trappatoni, etc.
"ranieri, whilst talented, isn't a 'big name' "
Er, Ranieri is at least as big a name as O'Neil and, outside of the UK, substantially better known.
"o'neil is right up there with the most talented managers available"
I think you mean "most promising young managers". He's got some way to go before we can put him in the class as Wenger, Ferguson, Hitzfeld, Cappella, etc. etc.
"these days liverpool can’t offer o'neil the opportuity of any more success than he could get at celtic"
That's just not true. He has Hypia, Gerrard and Owen which is the classic "world class" spine to build a team around and at Liverpool he would have lots of cash to do it with. He has almost zero chance of getting such players at Celtic becuase they simply won't play in the Scottish league.
"look at it this way: both teams are capable of winning things like the uefa cup, but would have absolutely no chance of winning the champions league, where at best both would do well to reach the quarter finals"
Not true. I can easily see Liverpool winning the Premiership again (I'd be amazed if they didn't) and seriously challenging for the Champions League. Liverpool as a club are really not that different from Arsenal -- the main difference being the manager and the squad both of which are within their power to change.
As for the Champions League, don't forget
Beyer Leverkusen very nearly won it three years ago.
"so all that aside, what offers greater satisfaction, or is the greater achievement for o'neil: finishing third in the premiership with liverpool or first in the SPL with celtic?"
Finishing 3rd with Liverpool is harder than winning the SPL with Celtic so I think it would give O'Neill more satisfaction (if we discount his personal attraction to Celtic).
Also if he qualifies for the Champions League with Liverpool he will have a team that finished 3rd in the Premiership and therefore almost certainly more capable of progressing than a Celtic side.
"would winning the F.A cup necessarily be any more rewarding for him than winning the scottish cup?"
Absolutely, yes. It's a lot harder to win so its more rewarding.
"and win trophies on a regular basis, which hasn't been the case in recent years"
Which has never been the case -- Chelsea have won 3 trophies in the last 50 years IIRC. By your reasoning West Ham are "sleeping giants" just waiting for an Abramovich to come along.
"they also have a massive fan base, probably as big as arsenal's"
Or Liverpool's, or Newcastle's...
BTW I am a big fan of O'Neill's and think he has lots of success at the highest levels ahead of him. But I do think you are wearing green tinted spectacles and giving him far too much credit.
Matthew
That's not true though. Chelsea almost certainly couldn't sign Thierry Henry for example, or Steven Gerrard, or Raul, or Nistelrooy, or Kaka, etc. They can compete for the best players which they didn;t used to be but given the level of renumeration such players already enjoy money is far from everything.
"to construct a team on that basis is something that can arguably only happen at three clubs in the world. chelsea are at the moment one of them"
Although Chelsea clearly have elevated themselves to a high level my list would include ManYoo, Arsenal, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juvenuts, AC Milan, Inter and Bayern Munich in it as well. It's not quite the exclusive club you seem to imagine.
"can you imagine the level of success o'neil could achieve by having access to a team full of world class players?"
Yes. In the right situation and with a bit of luck I beleive he will be able to achieve a level of success similar to that achieved by, say, Hector Cuper. If he continues at that level for a few more years then we might eventually elevate him into the exalted company of the likes of Bobby Robson, Arsene Wenger, Fabio Capella, Sven, etc. A lifetime and we can put him with Bob Paisley, Ferguson, Trappatoni, etc.
"ranieri, whilst talented, isn't a 'big name' "
Er, Ranieri is at least as big a name as O'Neil and, outside of the UK, substantially better known.
"o'neil is right up there with the most talented managers available"
I think you mean "most promising young managers". He's got some way to go before we can put him in the class as Wenger, Ferguson, Hitzfeld, Cappella, etc. etc.
"these days liverpool can’t offer o'neil the opportuity of any more success than he could get at celtic"
That's just not true. He has Hypia, Gerrard and Owen which is the classic "world class" spine to build a team around and at Liverpool he would have lots of cash to do it with. He has almost zero chance of getting such players at Celtic becuase they simply won't play in the Scottish league.
"look at it this way: both teams are capable of winning things like the uefa cup, but would have absolutely no chance of winning the champions league, where at best both would do well to reach the quarter finals"
Not true. I can easily see Liverpool winning the Premiership again (I'd be amazed if they didn't) and seriously challenging for the Champions League. Liverpool as a club are really not that different from Arsenal -- the main difference being the manager and the squad both of which are within their power to change.
As for the Champions League, don't forget
Beyer Leverkusen very nearly won it three years ago.
"so all that aside, what offers greater satisfaction, or is the greater achievement for o'neil: finishing third in the premiership with liverpool or first in the SPL with celtic?"
Finishing 3rd with Liverpool is harder than winning the SPL with Celtic so I think it would give O'Neill more satisfaction (if we discount his personal attraction to Celtic).
Also if he qualifies for the Champions League with Liverpool he will have a team that finished 3rd in the Premiership and therefore almost certainly more capable of progressing than a Celtic side.
"would winning the F.A cup necessarily be any more rewarding for him than winning the scottish cup?"
Absolutely, yes. It's a lot harder to win so its more rewarding.
"and win trophies on a regular basis, which hasn't been the case in recent years"
Which has never been the case -- Chelsea have won 3 trophies in the last 50 years IIRC. By your reasoning West Ham are "sleeping giants" just waiting for an Abramovich to come along.
"they also have a massive fan base, probably as big as arsenal's"
Or Liverpool's, or Newcastle's...
BTW I am a big fan of O'Neill's and think he has lots of success at the highest levels ahead of him. But I do think you are wearing green tinted spectacles and giving him far too much credit.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
That would be nice but the reality is that we're unlikely to see a striker of Larsson's quality in Scotland for quite a while.
OK, that qualifies as saying "something nice" about the King. I thought it would take you a little longer - like a year or three. Anyway, about that pint you owe me...
Davie
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bhoyo:
OK, that qualifies as saying "something nice" about the King. I thought it would take you a little longer - like a year or three. Anyway, about that pint you owe me...
Obviously I was talking about the quality of his submarine impressions...
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
Obviously I was talking about the quality of his submarine impressions...
I'll be happy to compare submarine impressions with you by sinking a couple of pints next time I'm in Embra. (It may be a while.)
Davie
Posted on: 05 April 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bhoyo:
I'll be happy to compare submarine impressions with you by sinking a couple of pints next time I'm in Embra. (It may be a while.)
Let me know when you're in the area and we'll toast Henrik's departure...!