CD and future formats

Besides, people are still improving their outmoded turntables, so why wouldn't I do the same for CDs? Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Mike,

I've got about 350 CDs. I know others have many more.

If a new format (which surpasses) CD comes along I would probably only replace a relatively small proportion of them (Either the new format players would play my remaining old CDs, or I'd keep the CDX). Let's say I'd want to replace 50-100 immediately. Assume a rip-off new format price of £20 a go, we're talking £1000-£2000.

Right now upgrading my CDX to CDS2 would cost around £2500 (I've already got the XPS).

Assuming Naim bring out a SACDS (or whatever) in 5 years I'd be wanting one of those. Upgrade cost = unknown !

I realise there are many unknowns in all this, but my point is that the investment in software is, for me, RELATIVELY small.

I'm still tempted by a CDS2 though !!

Of course if Naim bring out a replacement for the 52 in the near future I'll look pretty stupid.

Ian

A hi-fi dealer I spoke to recently said that their sales are increasingly home cinema orientated with a huge number of DVD players being bought - I have little doubt that conventional CD will disappear far faster than vinyl has done ie I wouldn't be surprised if there's little of it on sale within 2 years from the launch of a DVD-Audio standard - it is the way of the digital world. Go to any video store and see how the quantity of DVD's is rapidly approaching that of VHS in only 18 months of mass market penetration. What people want is a single player which will accomodate all their hi-fi and video needs - Universal players will deliver this and soon.

Now compare that to vinyl where it's taken 20 years and still people like us can intelligently argue vinyl is the superior format - that isn't the case with digital where the sampling rate on DVD-A is higher than CD and therefore it will offer better sound in a comparably well engineered player.

Also remember the bulk of CD player innards are manufactured by the majors who are keen as mustard to sell us all a new player again - there aren't a whole load of specialists like SME and Michell to support the format independently of the majors.

It may be the case that a CDS2 will replay conventional CD's to a higher standard than any future universal player can, but if a universal player in 12 months time costing £1500 could play DVD-A discs with comparable fidelity to a CDS2 playing conventional CD any sane person would have to think carefully about whether to wait now.

I'm also sure naim will be watching this market very carefully indeed and when DVD-A takes off will doubtless be ready to launch a high end player which will blow the socks off a CDS2!!

Jonathan

I think you've summed up my thoughts/fears exactly. Thank you for that well reasoned post.

I'll certainly live with my new set-up for a while before doing anything too hasty - like actually listening to a CDS2 in it !

Ian

They're also talking about watermarking all the new higher sampling rate systems, which I don't think they've shown (and they probably don't care) don't degrade the sound.

You probably will get new format systems that will out perform the current mass market CD players, but I think it will be some time before we get something that compares to the CDS2

When you consider that very few existing, dedicated CD players approach the quality of the CDS2, then I don't have much faith in the ability of a universal player to sound as good as the CDS2.

I have almost 1000 CDs. Most of these will be kept for many, many years, and I want to be able to listen to them using a superior playback device. As you can see, I don't expect a universal player to offer that level of performance, so I'm still climbing to the CDS2 level.

Besides, it's just money. Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

I feel another thread coming...

As for upgrading digital sources, I'm fortunate to have a CD player that a satisfying piece of kit (a CD3) and the balance between my current level of dissatisfaction (low to moderate) and my anxiety over a format change (medium) leads me to stand pat for now. Might be different if I was really dissatisfied with my player.

My CD3 doesn't do classical, period. I can't listen to classical on the thing, never have and I suspect I never will. Thank goodness I didn't dump my vinyl!

Now, I took some of my classical CDs for a CDX demo and, for me, the CDX didn't do classical either. My belief is that what my LP12, or old Rega P3 for that matter, does with classical that the CD3 and CDX do not largely comes down to the shortcomings of the CD format and the quality of existing classical CDs. And I'm simply not willing (able, yes - willing, no) to pay CDS2 money to play classical CDs. My feelings about upgrading might be different if a moderately priced player did the classical thing.

A second-hand CDX, or better yet CDS1, is a possibility, but I'm only luke warm to that given the format war and the possibility of getting music on-line.

- GregB

The aim of my post was to point out that improving the source was much more effective than improving the pre-amp.

The difference was so great that we noticed it while we were doing a different comparison.

What happened was this: I took my XPS and 52 to another Forum member's home to see what effect they would have on his system consisting of CDX, 102, SUPERCAP, 250, and Keilidhs.

We first added the XPS to his CDX. No doubting that adding the XPS brought a huge improvement.

Then we removed the XPS for the 52 v 102 comparison. One of the tracks we used for this comparison was used for the previous comparison. Although the 52 was much better than the 102, we didn't much enjoy what we heard because we could still remember the sound of CDX/XPS/102 which was so much better than the CDX/52.

Got to be XPS - no brainer !

Source first certainly makes sense. And I'd hope that an XPS would work with any new player Naim brings out - whether CDS3 (will they ever ?) or SACDS etc.

Ian

Two failures that spring to mind are the old "enormo-cassette", the Sony Elcassette, and the much more recent Phillips DCC systems. Both offered alleged quality improvements on existing tape technology, both failed as they offered no new functionality. Quadraphonic vinyl, DBX encoded vinyl… please help me… I can remember this stuff - I even have some bloody records. One is even DBX encoded quadraphonic.

CD has succeeded because it was free of the surface noise inherent in its vinyl competition, and offered new convenience in size and direct track access. Mini-Disc is possibly succeeding in making cassette tape a medium of the past again due to convenience and size, not sound quality.

Even taking into account Mini-Discs relative success, with probably far higher take-up than either of the new systems can expect, check out the remarkably small amount of music released on this medium at present…

My feeling is that CD is here to stay, complete with its crappy 44.1 sample rate and narrow 16 bit resolution, the fact that companies like Naim can actually get music out of the things is to be applauded. The potential for anything other than yet another remaster of 'Kind of blue' and about 27 totally boring audiophile label 'own band' recordings is remote for many a year. When anything by Neu!, Ash Ra Temple etc is released on either DVDA or SACD is the time I will even remotely consider it.

Tony.

quote:

---

The new DVD-A software will almost certainly have to be playable on conventional CD players. But as DVD players play video and audio discs, why would the public purchase a DVD-A player when DVD will (aparently)do the same thing?

---

I assume that you mean "conventional DVD" players above, as DVD-A will most certainly not work in CD players. In fact, it won't work in the current DVD players either. The standard hasn't been finalized, so current DVD players do not have the ability to handle the upcoming DVD-A format. Therefore, you'll have to purchase a new DVD player to play DVD(movies) and DVD-A(music).

That's yet another strike against DVD-A: the inevitable (and probably vocal) frustration of the early DVD adopters. If DVD was still an "exclusive" machine, and DVD-A arrived before it had become a mass-market item, then it would have more of a chance. (Sony's SACD may be an example of this, if the software soon starts arriving en masse.) Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Here's the scoop.

I got hooked on classical music when I was in college. I had a Rega P3, my girlfriend had a B&O thingy, and other friends had various Technics direct drive LP spinners.

It didn't matter which system we played classical LPs on - I dug classical. I could sit through concerto after concerto, symphony after symphony, regardless of the TT or recording quality of the vinyl. In that time I build a collection of 200-300 classical records. Classical on the radio was great and I have always enjoyed live performances.

Then arrives my Sony ES whatever CD player. I buy a few classical CDs. Rubbish! I can't listen to the stuff. I try - I force myself - and, yuck! I just don't get along with it. Since the radio stations switched to CD I also find that I *rarely* enjoy classical on the radio anymore :-(

Same story with my CD3. I have maybe 10 out of 150ish classical CDs that are listenable. And I just don't bother. Oh, the 150ish CDs were obtained over the last 15 or so years as I struggled to hold on to the belief that one day I would get a Magic CD player or find the Magic Tweak that would fix it all. Hasn't happened yet.

The CDX dem was through a 102/hicap/140 into a pair of speakers that seemed similar to my ProAc Response 2's. I recall you are not a ProAc fan but, really, this is not the problem. My LP12 does classical just fine through my 72/hicap/140 into the ProAcs.

Oh, and the demo setup was on *cough* Mana, so supports shouldn't have been the problem And I can't be bothered to limit myself only to certain recordings that happen to sound acceptable. Its too hard to know in advance and I've found the odds are so against it working for me anyway that I have long stopped buying classical CDs.

Maybe it is that I get along with the 'lushness' of vinyl, but I've never had trouble enjoying live performances. Only CD reply consistently presents a problem.

Anyone else experience this?

- GregB
Who is open to suggestions

Even when the new standards take place, I don't want to wait for years to hear music in a kind of way I do now with my 3 months old CDS2...

happy listening

Adrian

Of course this won't keep me from wanting a 52!!

[This message was edited by Adrian Frauchiger on TUESDAY 29 August 2000 at 14:10.]

I doubt that it would take Naim 10 years to research and design a suitable SACD, DVD or whatever player. Although these new formats might present different design challenges, I can't believe that the learning curve would be anywhere near as steep going from analog and digital. The largest waiting time will be to sort out which, if any, format will prevail over Redbook CD, and when will there be a critical mass of software available. What with the DVD encryption fiasco, SACD has a pretty healthy lead, but it's still not beyond Sony to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - remember Beta.

John Schmidt
"95% of everything is crud" - Theodore Sturgeon