Since I first heard the Mana effect at a friend's house I have been intrigued as to how Mana have managed to create a support system that makes such a dramatic improvement to sound quality. I am a scientist by training and it nagged away at me. About a week ago I had an idea about the principles involved. I have applied Occam's Razor (does the hypothesis explain all the observable aspects to which the hypothesis relates) and my idea passes with flying colours. I was then a bit concerned about publishing information which Mana (and some other manufacturers) use as trade secrets. I wish no one any harm, but I come from a background where the free publication of information is the norm, so have decided to publish my hypothesis:
The problem: electronic components are microphonic, and turntables and CD transports are adversly affected by mechanical vibrations. There are three main sources of vibrations:
(1) the equipment directly absorbs sound from the air which is excited by the speakers;
(2) transformers and CD/turntable motors, create vibrations internal to the equipment;
(3) vibrations can travel up the supports from the floor to the equipment.
My hypothesis: the Mana effect works by absorbing (not isolating) mechanical energy. The sound bases micro-vibrate turning vibrations into (small) amounts of heat. The higher phase (more sound bases) the rack is, the more efficiently it absorbs the energy. Effectively the sound bases act as a mechanical earth. The Mana racks are designed to carry vibrations from the equipment to the mechanical earth as efficiently as possible - hence the highly resonant, rigid structure of the racks.
A few examples of the application of Occam's Razor:
- CDX/CDS players metal feet sitting on glass shelves provides a poor mechanical coupling from the eqipment to the rack, so the vibrations cannot efficiently reach the mechanical earth. Adding the rubber pads to the metal feet solves the problem.
- Nordost pulsar points act on exactly the same energy absorbtion principle, which explains why they work so well.
- The Townsend sesimic sink stuff has too little internal damping to work really well, and is very set-up dependent (because the main effect comes from the absorption through some damping, rather than the isolation effect).
- Sand/shot filled racks such as those from Elemental Audio Reference absorb energy well and hence sound very good.
Hope you find this interesting.
Nic P
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Tony L
quote:
I read a study a little over a year ago claiming that music seems less "real" to listeners when it is stripped of its super-sonic harmonics. (It theorizes that the missing harmonics enable us to discern when it's a recorded piano versus a live one.) In the same manner, these "fake" harmonics from Mana could be tricking us into thinking the music is "live".
Sorry I can't buy this. Harmonics have a relationship to the pitch of the individual note, and will change with the note, such as bending a guitar string - if the Mana resonates in the audio band, it would be at a fixed frequency, which would impact different notes in different ways. It would sound horrible. It doesn't!
Tony.
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Tony, I'm not saying that the harmonics are necessarily the right ones, but that their mere existance might be tricking us into thinking that it's more "real".
BTW, I realized on the way home from work that my theory would also explain why more levels of Mana sound better. It even explains why Mana improves poor components more than a good ones: the good gear already sounds more real, so the change brought about by the Mana effect is not as obvious.
Overall it would seem that my hypothesis is closest to explaining the Mana Effect, according to the constraints of Occam's Razor (accommodating all of the symptoms with the simplest possible explanation). Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by Tony L
quote:
Tony, I'm not saying that the harmonics are necessarily the right ones, but that their mere existance might be tricking us into thinking that it's more "real".
Mike,
I understand where your argument is coming from, though so far my ears tell me otherwise.
Looking at a well setup Mana table, the glass top is tuned so it produces a distinct ringing tone. This tone is obviously within the audio band (because I can hear it!), and it is a complex sound with obvious harmonics and overtones – it has a bell like quality. I have a good ear for pitch (I play my bass purely by ear), and I am pretty damn certain that the stand is not adding any overtones or harmonics to the music at the pitch / frequency it resonates at. Though I am not necessarily suggesting this what you meant. Clarify!
To my ears the Mana effect is one of a broadband reduction of hash and a focusing of the sound at all frequencies. Adding a fixed harmonic content to the music could not as I understand it possibly be broadband in effect.
The only similar concept I have heard of is the way Roy Gandy (Rega) described (in some article I have read, sorry no idea what) why the P9 platter has an obvious narrowband ‘ping’ to it – he said it was easier to cope with (i.e. design out) a high amplitude narrowband resonance than a lower level broadband one. Everything resonates at some frequency and amplitude, with both the Mana and the Rega you can hear the resonance, they both work.
Tony.
Posted on: 21 September 2000 by John
I thought I would jump on board. I just purchased a 2 tier Mana stand for my Cdx and 82. I have my xps,supercap & 135's in a oak cabinet. I plan to post my findings to hopefully help people who are interested in the product.
I am also fortunate that my friend is over in Russia getting married and he lent me his CDSII. I am having lots of fun!
When I first setup my stand I found the ring of it interesting. But one thing not mentioned by anyone is the Naim components have a very similar ring. If you speak closely or bump the component there is a very similar ring. I am curious if its possible the rack and the components case are working together?
The effects of the stands are very significant so far. I would equate it to my upgrade from 1 hicap to the supercap. Similar in that the sound floor is siginficantly dropped and there is a balancing of the sound field. Previously the sound field was slightly different when I was standing and when I was sitting down. Same with moving throughout the room. Now no difference?? The other sonic benefit seems to be more dynamics and rythmic certainty (an effect I would expect going active???)
The effects so far on the CDSII are not as significant. But the effects on the CDX bring it significantly closer to the CDSII. I understand the CDSII has a special suspension system in it, you can hear it when you move the player which might account for the lesser improvement with the CDSII.
So far I don't believe the people who post something funny is happening because the effects it has on the CDX bring it more similar to the CDSII. Unless the CDSII isn't natural???
I will post more when I am more certian on everything.
John
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Nic Peeling
Life has been a bit hectic since I put my original posting on, hence my lack of input to the thread ... but it didn't really need any help from me. I have read all the interesting stuff posted and have a few observations:
Energy absorbtion implies isolation, but isolation does not necessarily imply absorbtion. I should have made it clearer that I think the soundbases do isolate the equipment from floor vibrations.
I think the stuff about how a tuned Mana rack rings is something I should have mentioned. A highly resonant rigid structure is a great way of getting vibrational energy from the equipment to the mechanical earth. It also makes it easier to design the soundbases for good energy absorbtion.
I deliberately did not go into what Occams Razor is - it is useful for testing a hypothesis .. by running known observations through your hypothesis you find if you keep having to change (make more complex) your hypothesis. If you keep having to change the hypothesis then it is an indication that there is simpler, better hyothesis you need to look for.
In my posting I postulate the vibrational energy is turned into small amounts of heat.
The issue of multiple soundbases I think is either due to (a) that the soundbases only remove a relatively small amount of energy each (say 20%), or that (b) even small amounts of residual energy have a major audible effect. I suspect that the actual physical effects and the audio perception are highly non-linear.
I did an experiment using pulsar points. I put my hand on my pre-amp and could feel the musical beat in my hand. I put one layer of points under it and the beat I felt through my hand was much reduced. I put another layer in and could hardly detect the beat through my hand.
I ran my hypothesis past my work colleagues, most of whom found it quite persuasive. I had two interesting comments:
- the traditional way to absorb vibrations is using a liquid based damper.
- a method used in some Universities who are short of money is a pile of newspapers with a concrete slab on top (have not tried this myself) - apparantly is has good damping properties.
Nic P
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Allan Probin said:quote:
How does your theory explain the effect when the equipment and rack are in a different room to the 'speakers ?
I believe there are multiple benefits that Mana applies. The "super-sonic harmonics" would be only one of these. The stands would still manage to improve equipment by reducing vibration, etc.
If my hypothesis is correct, I would expect the "magic" to be lessened if the equipment and stands were in a different room from the listener. However, it would still be better than having a crappy stand in the same configuration. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on FRIDAY 22 September 2000 at 15:50.]
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Tony Lonorgan said:quote:
I am pretty damn certain that the stand is not adding any overtones or harmonics to the music at the pitch / frequency it resonates at. Though I am not necessarily suggesting this what you meant. Clarify!
I'm talking about super-sonic frequencies (which we can't "hear", but apparently can "sense" in some fashion). Since the stand obviously doesn't attempt to dampen all vibrations (and in particular not the tuned note), it's possible that it's ringing on many frequencies.
I'm not suggesting that this is the only effect. I think Mana also does what any good stand does: isolates gear and reduces vibration in the components. That would certainly explain many of the benefits. However, it wouldn't explain why more levels sound progressively better (rather than being a case of geometrically diminishing returns as more levels are added). Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on FRIDAY 22 September 2000 at 15:52.]
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Vuk said:quote:
you are constructing that which is to be explained from a particular description you have noticed or deliberately singled out above others: "things sounding more real" .... To the two of us ... the main effect seems to be the removal of the kind of messy stuff one usually associates with poor mains, ... etc.
My description of the supersonic tones making it seem more "real" is only one part of my hypothesis. As I mentioned to Tony, Mana is also doing what good stands do: isolation and the reduction of vibration in components. Remember, though, that the reduced/dissipated energy must go somewhere. I'm merely speculating that it's partially converted into supersonic sound energy, which may create the "live" qualities that some have reported.
This would also explain why more levels of Mana make it sound progressively better. It's the only supposition that contends with this so far. Remember that you're still a skeptic of this particular trait, so you may be predisposed to discount this aspect of my explanation.
quote:
I take speculation in this area very seriously and instinctively frown upon half-baked ideas presented as explanations of relevant phenomena.
Understood. Yet my explanation is just a hypothesis, and not yet to the "theory" stage. Considering the informal nature of this forum, I didn't feel that presenting my idea would be out of place. Personally, I would be happy if someone could punch a great big hole in it, because I still feel it's a little silly. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on FRIDAY 22 September 2000 at 15:55.]
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Vuk said:quote:
There's still the simpler idea of more layers helping to dissipate more of the nasties.
I've got to go with Ross on this one. If it's purely the removal of vibrations (i.e. nasties), then we're constricted by the law of diminishing returns.
For example, if one level of Mana eliminates half of the vibrations, then a second level would bring the remaining vibrations down to 25%. Another takes it to 12.5%, and the fourth to 6.25%, etc. This assumes that the first level reduces vibration by only 50%, which is bloody awful! I would assume that Mana does better than that.
If we increase the per-level benefit from 50% to a more realistic 80%, the improvement progression changes from 50/25/12.5/6.25% to 20/4/0.8/0.16%. As you can see, after only three levels, you've already eradicated over 99% of the noise, leaving little room for the much touted improvements of additional platforms.
I know we're dealing with human hearing, which does not gauge sound in a linear fashion. Even so, 1% is still 1%. At phase 4 you're at 0.16% (assuming 80% reduction per level). By phase 7 there's less than 1 billionth of the vibrational energy remaining, so how gould phase 11 provide a "massive" improvement over phase 7?
Therefore, I don't accept "dissipation of the nasties" as the only explanation. Sure it's part of the equation, but there has to be something more going on. (Either that, or Mana pundits who suggest that you can get improvements from adding levels beyond phase 4 are simply wrong.) Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on FRIDAY 22 September 2000 at 17:27.]
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Ok, I'll stand down for now. As you say, I don't have a lot of personal experience with this. Some of the evidence/data that I'm using for my hypothesis are claimed observations of people who I believe are Mana fanatics, and I never trust the word of a fanatic.
Still, it would be interesting to hear from someone who has tried their Mana setup with the equipment in the room versus in a separate room. If it's better when in the room, then it would suggest that the stand really is singing and dancing along with the music! Any takers? Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
>> I can say in all seriousness that, had you submitted what you wrote here for an assignment (some kind of preliminary formulation of a research question / proposal) in my class, you would have received a failing grade. <<
Um... why? What basic tenets did I fail to observe in formulating my hypothesis? Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
BTW, don't suggest that it was my lack of intended experimental methods and tests. I just didn't bother to do it. Don't forget that I'm trained as an engineer, so I do understand the concept of a valid scientific experiment. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Arthur Bye
I have spoken to Mana about mounting the stands on floor protectors(pennies). They advise against this as it eliminates the Mana Effect. I tried it and they were correct.
I was futher advised that if I wanted to avoid damaging a wood floor I could place the stand on MDF which was supported by pea sized balls of blu tak. This worked.
Mana advised against mounting the stand on screws that were directly screwed into the floor. Yet their turntable support is supposed to be screwed directly into the wall.
They also advised against mounting the stand on MDF that was directly screwed into the floor.
I have not tried the last two methods and now have my stand directly on a wood floor for what seem to be the best results.
In all of these recommendations though I do not see a progression of logic.
If dissapation of sound is what makes Mana work, why don't screws directly in the floor or MDF screwed directly on the floor assist in the disapation of vibration?
Arthur Bye
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
Yes, Vuk, I know that it's your paid profession. However, I wasn't looking for a "professional" reply. Just a simple statement of, "you missed the very important BLAH-blah-BLAH..."
It's rather silly to claim that I would have gotten a failing mark, and then demur when I ask for your reasoning. What's even sillier is that you've done this before. If I didn't know you better, I would say that you're a troll. 
BTW, Mick should purchase whatever computer was the bleeding edge a year ago. It will have come down significantly in price, and it will still be good enough for anything he would want it to do. Now I've done my charity for the day, so there!
Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 22 September 2000 by Mike Hanson
I started with the assumption that there
is a Mana Effect(s), and it's described in a variety of ways (e.g. less noise, more PRaT, more "real", some kind of lyrical magic, etc.). I was also attempting to address as many of these observations as possible (including the concept of continuing improvements with additional levels, which is really where I feel the "dissipation of noise" hypothesis falls short). If these effects didn't really exist, then describing how they're produced would certainly be daft. However, enough people have reported observing these effects, that I felt comfortable in assuming that they were real (within this context of this forum).
I also described the reduction of noise by each level using an simplistic mathematical model. Considering the huge philosophical rift between those who measure with their ears versus those who measure with their instruments, this was probably a faux pas.
Of course, if I were approaching this as a formal investigation of any potential Mana Effects and their associated causes, I would certainly not be so casual in my approach. I do recognize the invalidity of anecdotal evidence in the scientific method, as well as the problems with using overly simple models to describe admittedly complex real-world scenarios.
Yes, my approach was rather flippant, although I don't tend to take these things very seriously (or anything, for that matter). I think we understand each other now. After all of this banter, I'm really looking forward to hearing Mana with my own ears.
BTW, I just noticed that you removed the Euro2000 reference from your message. That's probably a good thing, as I don't recall having been involved in that discussion. 
Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Smilies do not a forum make.
Posted on: 23 September 2000 by Jez Quigley
Although I'm written off as childish and without credence by the name police in this forum, Ross's ideas sit well with the understanding of research I picked up on my Masters course. I'm only a B+ student though, so it probably counts for nothing.
However, I'm not writing a dissertation on the obsessive psychological and emotional dependence of some hi-fi owners, and their tendency to aggression when challenged. I'd just like opinions from people who have, for reasons of expense or domestic harmony, used a mana soundframe on a very heavy piece of furniture which in turn is on a suspended wooden floor. Did it make enough of a difference to justify the cost? and what other alternatives should I try before parting with cash?
Posted on: 23 September 2000 by Nigel Cavendish
Love it when scientists, or pseudo-scientists, or people with scientific pretensions argue.
Seems to me you can measure practically anything either objectively or subjectively, but knowing what something does does not always explain the the effect it has, or is thought to have.
Sometimes this is important to know, but for hi-fi furniture? I think not.
If mana works for you - fine, if not - that's fine too.
Keep arguing whilst you have the chance because I can't see naim allowing such a heated disussion about someones else's product to continue on their forum.
cheers
Nigel
Posted on: 23 September 2000 by Arthur Bye
Vuk/ Ross/ Mike/ etal:
I think you should direct your arguments to John Atkinson or TJ Norton at Stereophile. They love this kind of stuff. They could create more charts and graphs the they ever have before. Hell they could devote a whole edition to the "Mana Effect" Then you would have some empirical evidence to argue with! You might even subscribe again.
Of course you'd probably end up with more questions than answers.
Don't you just love the scientific method?
Let not be so serious about all of this and just enjoy the music.
I bought Mana, I liked what I bought so I'm keeping it. Maybe I'll buy some more. It might be Voodoo, it might be energy dissapation, it might be my imagination. Whatever it is I like it.
I always thought it was about enjoying the music. Isn't that what really matters?
Arthur Bye
Manna from Heave
Posted on: 23 September 2000 by P
Can I be the first to say that this thread is getting a little bit toooo deep for most of us mere mortals out here and can we kindly "Change the Record" perleeeeaaaaaase.
Stick it all in a bloody cupboard and forget about it guys- Just enjoy what you're hearing and stop bloody worrying!!!!
Hmm..Mana....doesn't that stuff collect dust or something?
Regards P.errr
Posted on: 23 September 2000 by Nigel Cavendish
Well I did not read all of it, well hardly any - if psycho-babble is bad audio-babble is worse - but consider in respect of mana:
If the lp or cd is not recorded or mastered on mana supports, and if mana either adds or subtracts something (to whatever degree), then what you hear is not what you were intended to hear. What then is hi-fi?
To paraphrase something I said before, if not here then somewhere else, hi-fi is nothing to do with the reproduction of live music, nor it would seem, anything to do with the reproduction of the reproduction of live music.
Like what you like.
cheers
Nigel
