Police chiefs admit hunt ban won't work

Unknown.

I can see how it would be a logistical nightmare to enforce fully - not to mention all the front page headlines when a bunch of coppers go chasing after a load of horses across country. But I would assume that there will be key people involved in organising illegal hunts - I hope that the penalties exacted on them will be no different from any other criminal. And that those who turn up will be treated as accessories.

We shall see.

Cheers

Harry

In my local community, it's easy to see why the hunt ban is unworkable, apart from people like myself, most locals are related, either by family ties or school buddies. In some cases, a local cop will live on a farm, but as farming rarely can support the whole family, his elder brother will work the farm whilst the younger one earns his income from outside work, ie: Policeman/Council work.

This begs the question - How can the local police/council remain unbiased and carry out their duties professionally? This has been a major problem in rural areas for decades....

Assuming there are no foxes left, what excuse will be used to chase asylum seekers across them there rolling fields ?


Fritz Von And win a Metro too

Asylum seekers don't graze on grass.....

quote:

Originally posted by Barnie:
Asylum seekers don't graze on grass.....

Quite true, and what with only 12,000 of them last year, there's hardly enough blood to go around, innit !


Fritz Von I write much faster now I've finally installed DSL

quote:

Originally posted by Barnie:
In my local community, it's easy to see why the hunt ban is unworkable, apart from people like myself, most locals are related, either by family ties or school buddies. In some cases, a local cop will live on a farm, but as farming rarely can support the whole family, his elder brother will work the farm whilst the younger one earns his income from outside work, ie: Policeman/Council work.

This begs the question - How can the local police/council remain unbiased and carry out their duties professionally? This has been a major problem in rural areas for decades....

Police officers are ALWAYS members of the community which they police. In my country they are expected to be part of the community and are given time off to take part in community activities and sports.

I don't see what the problem is really. They are trusted to use discretion and to act without bias. Judges are another matter though as the tenets of natural justice require that those that sit in judgement have no interest in the outcome of a case and personal ties can produce a conflict of interest. But policing is not the same as police do not ultimately sit in judgement and any sanctions the police administer directly, such as fines, are reviewable in the courts.

Surely the hunting ban is no different to any other criminal matter that takes place in a community?

Deane

Well...if they arrest the foot-soldier hunt followers rather than those on horseback.
Then the national press will go berserk and suddenly it would be a top priority to catch the huntsmen proper.
Who would promptly call their solicitors, if they weren't already present. Question of properly identitifying a large, rapidly-receding backside?
What's rural posh for "This is a stitch up Guv"?

How do you chase a skilled huntsman on a damn great horse across hillock and dale without looking like a total pillock? There's a rhyme in there somewhere, but I'm resisting the urge.

The miners were largely on foot. They should have used horses. Case closed.

Nime

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
Surely the hunting ban is no different to any other criminal matter that takes place in a community?

In essence yes, but as it's in the interests of the farming community to contol the fox population, who is going to report the crime?

It may be different in other areas of the country....

Farmers can shoot foxes, end of story.



Fritz Von Wasting more Precious Parliamentary time on fiilibusteresque rubbish.

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Farmers can shoot foxes, end of story.

True, and that is what they do here, although dogs are still used to flush them out, along with a few horses to keep up, no red coats though. Farmers are to busy being farmers to go along on a hunt...

As a detached rural dweller in sheep country for ten years I always laugh at the fox control red herring.
I've repeatedly rung farmers to tell them that their own sheep dogs are endlessly worrying their own heavily pregnant ewes. It usually takes them an hour to drag themselves away from what they are doing that is so damned important.

I've gone out on the fields and lined up dozens of dead lambs by the gate for collection. Lambs that were put out too soon in foul weather to have their eyes picked out whilst still alive by the crows.

I've put up with piles of stinking corpses for months before the farmer "got round" to tidying up the mess.

I've seen hugely deformed calves allowed to wander the fields for weeks until they finally died and got a quick burial with the JCB.

Farmers don't give a monkey's toss for their stock. They just like dressing up and chasing, shooting, or digging things up.

In ten years I only saw one fox out on the fields in broad daylight and the sheep didn't even look up as it ran between them and their own lambs! But the mere whiff of a dog in the lane and the whole flock run like lunatics.

Meanwile the caring farmers are going up and down the lanes and fields with powerful spotlamps at night in their 4x4s looking for foxes to shoot or digging up the local badger set? Who's pulling who's leg here?

Nime

quote:

Originally posted by Nime:
How do you chase a skilled huntsman on a damn great horse across hillock and dale without looking like a total pillock? There's a rhyme in there somewhere, but I'm resisting the urge.
Nime

Why not just employ skilled marksmen to pick them off? I bags Otis Ferry...

Kevin

It's no different than other 'bans' that are difficult to police, such as;

Using mobiles while driving
Recreational drug taking
iTrip usage
Speeding

and so on. This doesn't make the police come out and say 'it'll be impossible to enforce a ban on murder' and imply that the law should be scrapped, does it? I assume the hunting masons have been talking to the police masons about it, which is why we get these statements.

Actually, thinking about it, this is going to be easier to enforce than the above. All the police have to do is make the hunt sabbers 'special policemen' and let them do the investigation, filming and evidence gathering. After all, they've had years of practice.

And it's not that difficult to discover who'll be illegally hunting. I think all it will take are a few initial prominent cases - mabye a royal or a judge or two - and the whole barbaric thing will creak to an end.

Regards

Stephen

Chaps

The answer is simple. Once an illegal hunt has taken place, you despatch the hounds by court order. No hounds, no hunt.

Regards

Mick

Mick, I admire your 'can-do' attitude.

er,
Some of you have some strange ideas about the police and working practices, now don't you .

Its not the police that set the priorities - its the govmt. The govmt set the priorities supposedly based on what the electorate want (?)

If a hunt is high profile enough, and to make a point, it could be policed providing enough officers were released. Forces still have mounted sections (horses!) you know.

Also the hunt culd be videoed (as they frequently are) and then the perps prosecuted from there etc... There are quite a few options available.

quote:

Using mobiles while driving
Recreational drug taking
iTrip usage
Speeding

Drug taking is the root of 4/5's of all petty and alot of organised crime, and is easy to police, provided thea there is enough staff to police it - this comes down to cash.

Just thought I'd post an alternative view to some posted previously

regards,

andy c!

quote:

Originally posted by andy c:
Also the hunt culd be videoed (as they frequently are) and then the perps prosecuted from there etc... There are quite a few options available.
andy c!

I have seen a video of a hunt where one of the huntsmen on horseback (plainly identified) was filmed riding straight at a girl, who luckily managed to dive out of the way. She got a hoof in the hand however, and fractured it so badly that she couldn't write for a year with her right hand (her finals at Uni year). It still causes problems 5 years on.

The police interviewed her, took a copy of the video and, so she was told, the CPS declined to prosecute. I've seen the video; the guy on the horse shouted abuse and hoofed it towards the line of people who were off to the side of the path he was riding on. It was a miracle no-one was killed.

I hope videoing will be enough. I have my doubts.

Regards

Stephen

Although the idea of the occasional toff "falling down stairs" back at the nick, is to be encouraged, I can't see how it will be legally possible to differentiate between a legal drag hunt that "went wrong", and a pre-meditated illegal hunt.

Legal minefield.

(Minefield ?...........there's an idea)

BOR

quote:

Farmers don't give a monkey's toss for their stock. They just like dressing up and chasing, shooting, or digging things up.

I cannot agree with Nime, although I'm not quite sure how this relates to hunting. The farming around me is almost universally livestock. Livestock=income. I see agressive protection against stray dogs and good animal husbandry as the norm rather than the exception. I do see a lack of sentimentality about sick or dead animals, which is not quite the same thing as cruel indifference.

My neighbour banned the hunt across his land because they frightened pregnant ewes and left gates open and fences damaged. In my experience farmers (rather than landowners) do not make up much of the hunt. They are too busy for starters.

Bruce

Nime

As a detached rural dweller and landowner in sheep country for over ten years, I fully understand what you have wittnessed, I too have seen farmers behave as you descibe. This is far from the norm though, the type you describe are viewed with contemt by all locals and farmers alike.

The bad farmers IME are generally found on impoverished remote hill farms, having lived in the arse end of the world most of their lives, with very little contact from society, they are slightly mad, very few of them left nowadays.

I don't keep sheep and I'm not a farmer, I do keep chickens though, free range and cut organic hay from our fields. Have you ever seen the carnage inflicted to chickens by foxes? Dead headless bodies scattered everywhere....

As I said before and Bruce has alluded too, farmers are way to busy to go on hunts or lamping at night.

Myself and my neighbors, do not take kindly to hoo ha henrys in red coats either! The only time I've seen them in this area was a few years back, on a farm whose daughter had just returned from 10 years absence, after being educated in London.

quote:

the CPS declined to prosecute

Now that is a completely differant issue and, trust me, very political too

andy c!

Barnie and Bruce

I may have lived on the edge of hill country but can assure you that the farm in question was on the flatlands close to a city.

I can also assure you that I recognise local farmers' sons digging an embankment not 5 yards from my own garden fence. I went out to see what the noise was, spoke to them and received a stream of invective and threatening actions with their guns.

I also recognise vehicles that I see every day.

The greatest danger to his stock was the farmer, his sons and their own dogs. Not in any particular order.

I count myself fortunate that I moved away a few years ago. Now we live in detached rural crop growing countryside. Which is sprayed to death with Roundup!

And where shooting the wildlife is extremely popular. They even have special seats so they can sit up in the trees ready to shoot anything that comes along the path. If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious.

They breed pheasants over here too. But not foxes as far as I know.

The huntsmen are often shown in the local paper, proudly standing in front of their day's "bag" (carefully arranged on the ground) My wife cuts out these pictures and sticks pins in them! Well somebody has to take a stand don't they!

Nime

quote:

Originally posted by Nime:

And where shooting the wildlife is extremely popular. They even have special seats so they can sit up in the trees ready to shoot anything that comes along the path.
Nime

Those seats are Highseats which allow the culling of deer with rifles to be carried out safely - i.e. so when the bullet comes out of the other side of the deer, it goes safely into the ground and doesn't rattle off across the countryside and into someone's house...

Lots of anti hunting views on here....perhaps we should give some thought to the effects on the foxes? After all, the legislation was designed to protect them wasn't it...nothing to do with class warfare or spite from the labour party surely?

Following the ban in Scotland it now seems that far more foxes are being killed. This is a good thing as foxes are indiscriminate killers (5 of my 6 hens were killed a few months ago - none were eaten) and they must be controlled.

However, hunting with hounds had one significant benefit for the fox population; it was very rare for a healthy adult fox to be caught. Usually only the old, sick or very young were taken by the hounds. Now they can be flushed to waiting guns, it means that even the healthy adults will be killed...or left wounded to die a painful death full of a load of 12 bore shot. Of course, this point will be conveniently ignored by the antis....and no, I have never hunted before anyone asks.

I am disturbed that it is a very illiberal piece of law which does nothing to promote harmony in our fair land. Angling next?

Curling should be banned in summer, as well as winter bowls, and indoor sailing.


Fritz Von And all Bridge tables should be erased from the face of the earth.