is there a downside with active studio monitors?

My friend used to have ATC 50As (NOT the SL version) and they do dynamics etc very well, and can go VERY loud with no obvious distortion...

However, they also rip to shreds any recording with even a hint of a fault...

I didn't mind them, but they're not a patch (musically) on ES14s IMHO (I've heard MY ES14s on his current rig and they're very good). Be very careful is my advice...

__________________________
Don't wanna be cremated or buried in a grave
Just dump me in a plastic bag and leave me on the pavement
A tribute to your modern world, your great society
I'm just another victim of your highrise fantasy!

so dom are you saying that the atcs allow information analysis to get in the way of the music?
I'm just concerned with getting the balance right.
at the moment everything I value musically is in place.
I just want a bit more detail, and to take advantage of the technical benefits offered by active monitors without upsetting the way the system plays music.
perhaps it's going to be a difficult balancing act.
it might be safer going for a 552 or 300 and keeping the es14s.

TN

technical downsides are:long interconnects from
preamp to speaker.
do not know ATcs but active speakers have often
a potentiometer to change the gain in the input,and this potentiometer is in the signal path (so one more preamp)
O.J.

You have to try them.

I think Roy Gregory is saying that he doesn't want to hear what's actually on his records/CDs. Which is fine but it's not hifi.

Paul

For reassurance on ATC monitors you should look to Blzebub on any forum but this. For my part, I'd be more tempted to go for something like the Neat Ultimatum - fantastically revealing yet musical.

The long leads could be a problem if you're not balanced. The power amps are a swing and a roundabout in equal measure IMO - they're chosen specifically for the drive units = good; they're shaking around in a speaker cabinet = not so good.

Interestingly, very few, if any reviewers like the idea of studio monitors at home, even those who use them in studios. Whether they're right is another matter. I lived very happily with AE1s for 20 odd years - they were developed as near-field monitors.

Alex

paul,

quote:

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I think Roy Gregory is saying that he doesn't want to hear what's actually on his records/CDs. Which is fine but it's not hifi.

---

I think you're right, although perhaps he prefers his music presented in a way that appeals to the heart more than the head.
the key for me with a hi-fi system is in its presentation of the music.
I enjoy hearing detail (one should have as much of this as possible), but the overall experience must be involving and enjoyable to listen to, not just an exercise in analysis.
the emotive element of a musical performance is crucial, and if that’s missing, I generally become disinterested in proceedings.
you're right though, I will have to listen to a pair of active 20s at home (and perhaps also their bigger brothers) to form my own conclusions.

TN

alex,

I've always liked neat speakers.
I heard the large stand-mount ultimatums recently and was very impressed.
have you heard the speakers you mention compared to active atcs?
if so I'd appreciate your thoughts, baring in mind the musical priorities I have mentioned, as to be honest I don't have the time or the inclination to look through input elsewhere on forums.

TN

quote:

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but the overall experience must be involving and enjoyable to listen to, not just an exercise in analysis.

---

My experience of active ATCs is limited to a notorious pair of black 100s in Scotland. IMO you get involving and enjoyable alongside the analysis. Not to mention the 'kinell' potential.

I'd happily have a pair.

Don't worry about the interconnects, at likely domestic lengths it's not a big deal.

Paul

I've owned Active 10s for around a year. Roy Gregory can safely be ignored. IME ATC actives are neither especially analytical nor particularly unforgiving, just nicely balanced and sufficiently neutral to be very good all-rounders. I have no problem simply enjoying music through them.

Like any speaker, you need to try some out at home and see if you like them.

I agree with Paul about the cables, btw - the speakers have balanced inputs but over normal domestic runs of <10m it doesn't matter (ATC's own CA2 preamp designed for use with their speakers only has unbalanced outputs). Your dealer or Chord can supply suitable DIN->XLR cabling for your Supercap.

-- Ian

Trevor, I'm hoping to hear Bub's big ATCs soon; hopefully he'll also hear my MF9s so you should get a balanced assessment - whether its before you change speakers is another matter.

Looking at your system, I'd say it majors on music far more than on detail for its own sake. Having lived with all of your components apart from the CDS3 (I had a 2) and the speakers (but I know they work well with Naim), I'd change the 82 for a 52 straight away. Then I'd get an Aro, probably. Source first and all that, but there's no doubt that nothing substitutes for big in speakers in the 'Kinell dept. Getting another 250 and biamping the Neats would also be a good move.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I'd say your system is pretty well balanced as it is so if you don't do nothing you may end up doing quite a lot.

Sideshowbob's right, Roy Gregory occupies a very different part of hi-fi-land to most of us! Have you thought of just puting Valhalla everywhere?

Alex

paul,

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
My experience of active ATCs is limited to a notorious pair of black 100s in Scotland. IMO you get involving and enjoyable alongside the analysis. Not to mention the 'kinell' potential.

---

just worked out what 'kinell' potenential is - after having read alex's reply!
are the 100s really big, do you know their dimensions?
I would be interested in them, but as my other half will also have a say in the matter, they would require to fit into our living space.
why are the black 100s "notorious"?

TN

The model number gives you the cabinet size in litres, so 100=100 litres=very big.

Have a look at http://www.atc.gb.net/ for downloadable brochures of the dimensions and specs of the various speakers.

-- Ian

Another alternative which no-one has yet suggested is to look for a secondhand pair of SBLs. These are excellent with 250's of course and would be a pretty cost effective upgrade if you can find a good secondhand pair and a used 250 to go active. I did the move from ES14s to SBLs about 10 years ago and found they just did more of what I liked about the Epos speakers. Finally now in the process of moving to a four pack 135 system to see what they can really do!

(BTW I haven't had much experince of the ATCs so can't shed any light on active SBL vs ATC).

alex,

quote:

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Trevor, I'm hoping to hear Bub's big ATCs soon; hopefully he'll also hear my MF9s so you should get a balanced assessment - whether its before you change speakers is another matter.

---

I'm in no hurry, so I'll look forward to reading your assessment in due course.

quote:

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Having lived with all of your components apart from the CDS3 (I had a 2) and the speakers (but I know they work well with Naim), I'd change the 82 for a 52 straight away.

---

yes, I know the preamp can be improved, but I would have thought a 252 would be better than a 52.
although I may even consider a 552, given the high opinion with which it is held by naim owners and others alike.

quote:

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Then I'd get an Aro, probably.

---

there we disagree.
I like the aro very much, but having heard both it and an ittok with a troika, I prefer the ittoks more 'muscular', rhythmical, musical delivery over the aro's admittedly superior midband accuracy.

quote:

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Source first and all that, but there's no doubt that nothing substitutes for big in speakers in the 'Kinell dept. Getting another 250 and biamping the Neats would also be a good move.

---

point taken.
another possible option might be a pair of active isobariks.
do you have any experience of those?
I can't help but feel they would work very well in my system, but worry that because they're a bit 'old in the tooth' more modern designs might outperform them in certain areas.
if I went down that route, I'd probably drive them with 3x300s.
thoughts?

quote:

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Fortunately or unfortunately, I'd say your system is pretty well balanced as it is so if you don't do nothing you may end up doing quite a lot.

---

I agree, but none of us are ever happy are we?
having said that, the cds3 was the first new component I've bought in years.
drat, that's probably what's caused the upgraditis!!

quote:

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Sideshowbob's right, Roy Gregory occupies a very different part of hi-fi-land to most of us! Have you thought of just puting Valhalla everywhere?

---

er, no.
I don't believe in wasting money!
gregory does tend to get rather over-excited about certain things, but sometimes he makes good points, although his manufacturer bias is all too obvious.

TN.

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul D:
Just this weekend I have listened to passive Linn Isobariks, driven by Mana Stealth amplifiers and the big active ATCs mentioned above.

---

Hi Paul,

Are you trying to say in polite language that Tanais Fox's Isobariks were nice and Blzebub's ATC's were rubbish Perhaps James doesn't use enough Mana? Or needs to reverse his Burndy? Or needs the expertise of Roy K Riches? Maybe all three!

I have to smile when you and Alex recommend Naim upgrades to people though!

regards,

Dev

Dev, always happy to make you smile. Actually, I've done about 15 Naim upgrades of one sort or another. I'm hardly going to tell everyone to buy Dynavector amps on the Naim forum am I

Paul, you don't know it yet, but in describing the great strengths of the Isobariks and the ATCs you've summed up the MF9s perfectly

"That said, speakers are a highly subjective choice, and we could go back and forth on the SBL/Isobarik/Atc thing all day - YOU need to listen to a pair Everything the rest of us say (including reviewers) is idle chit-chat"

Exactly right. And as someone who recently set aside ES14's in favour of a big sealed-box three-way speaker, I'm grinning at how big a shock you're in for.

Mr Tibbs

quote:

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Originally posted by Royster:

Hi Trevor,

Should you end up doing a home dem, DO post your findings as I am at a very similar "crossroad" as yourself.

---

will do, roy.
at the moment I'm accumulating information from various sources about active atcs, before doing a home demo.
sometmes it's useful being aware of other people's experiences before listening yourself.
me buying a new pair of speakers is an unusual event, and I'm very fussy, so it's decision I never arrive at quickly!

TN

blockat,

quote:

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Originally posted by blockat:
Another alternative which no-one has yet suggested is to look for a secondhand pair of SBLs. These are excellent with 250's of course and would be a pretty cost effective upgrade if you can find a good secondhand pair and a used 250 to go active.

---

I've never compared sbls to es14s, but have often heard people say they have similar qualities, so what you suggest might be an option.
could you elaborate on the musical/sonic differences you experienced between the two?
this option would certainly remove the need for speaker stands.
in fact, the issue of speaker stands is something I am going to have to give serious consideration if I go for atcs, particularly if I choose one of the larger models.
at the moment I'm just using some cheap open frame target stands, which suit the dimensions of the es14s, but one would assume that something of better quality will be necessary to hear atcs at their best.
so does anyone have any recommendations on good quality speaker stands - what are atcs normally used with?

TN

paul,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul D:
Just this weekend I have listened to passive Linn Isobariks, driven by Mana Stealth amplifiers and the big active ATCs mentioned above.

The Isobariks have a beguiling musicality that just makes you want to listen and listen and listen. All programme material comes over as musical and even less than good recordings are not savaged but seem to have you focussing on the music rather then the Hi Fi.

---

that is very interesting.
what you describe is exactly what I look for in a pair of speakers.
my taste in music varies from thrash metal to intimate jazz, and all sorts in between!
I was spinning the scissor sisters and franz ferdinand last night - both were superb.
today I'm off to buy squarepusher - ultravisitor, and sufjan stevens - seven swans.
some of the recordings on the heavier stuff in my collection aren't exactly 'hi-fi friendly', so I need a pair of speakers that reveal lots of detail but don't destroy the music.
no speakers are perfect though, so what would you say are the isobariks weak points?

quote:

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The ATCs are in every way different, sampled recordings mixed down on Yamaha NS10s and the like sound rather like NS10s. Well recorded symphonic pieces sound simply spectacular with incredible low level detail and a presence that is beyond the old Briks to equal.

---

that's kind of what I suspected.
the only thing that worries me about the isobariks is that they might not reveal as much musical information as atcs.
my experience so far of tannoys and celestions from around the same era as the isobariks tells me that in general speakers of that vintage tend to have a more relaxed balance compared to modern designs - indeed they can sometimes sound a bit shut-in.
this is something I want to avoid at all costs.
if I went for the isobariks, what amplification would you recommend, and how would I get the best out of them?
I believe they're not the easiest of loads, so I suspect a 250 (or even 3 250's in active mode) might not be up to the job.

quote:

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Well recorded rock programme is equally excellent with tight tuneful bass, superb vocal definition and a real "you are at the gig" quality. The Naim 52 pre is helping here I feel.

---

the preamp situation is one I intend to sort out sooner rather than later.
my recent acquisition of the cds3 has upped the ante in terms of the need for something more transparent than an 82.
what you describe with regard to the atcs sonic virtues again sounds just what I'm looking for.
my only concern is that I heard atcs can sometimes verge towards sterility, and have the tendency to brightness due to their highly revealing nature.
as I said earlier, I need a speaker that won't trash some of my less than perfect recordings, so I'd be concerned that the atcs might highlight deficiencies at the expense of me enjoying the music.
again, like I asked you with the isobariks, what would you say are the atcs weak points?

quote:

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Two very different presentations that are going to suit two different types of listeners I feel. If you want it warts and all, then I think you have to go with the studio monitors. If you have a large collection of music that you just wish to enjoy then I would stick to the Epos and follow Alex's excellent advice as to upgrades.

---

alex's advice is good, but I can tell you that this is the first upgrading I've done for about 8 years.
I'm not prone to chopping and changing or buying new gear for the sake of it, but after having amassed some 3000 lps, and around 1500 cds, I feel the time is now right to hear more from my collection.
sorry for waffling on!
your advice regarding the questions I've raised would be greatly appreciated.

TN

Trevor, you need to start auditioning before you get too many conflicting opinions, which IME can make it difficult to listen to the options without pre-judging the results.

I listen to an awful lot of average and poorly-recorded material and I don't find ATCs highlighting deficiencies, on the contrary, they're a very fine all-round speaker. I can't stand brightness, and they don't seem bright to me. But you might think differently, of course.

-- Ian

true enough, ian, and I will shortly do some auditioning.
although I find reading the conflicting opinions interesting and highly informative.
it's just my way of doing things.
what stands do you use with your atcs?

TN

I use my 10s on Kan II stands. ATC's own stands are high-mass affairs, they look very similar to Atacama Nexus, and in comparison don't do a great deal for the speakers IMO. Definitely worth experimenting with different approaches, although Kan stands would be inappropriate for anything larger than the 10s.

BTW, I've used my 10s with: EAR 834L valve pre, NAC82/hicap, and for the last 6 months or so ATC's CA2. The CA2 easily wins IMO, which is handy since you can get one for less than £400 secondhand.

-- Ian

I run active Isobariks with Linn electronics. I think the Linn Aktiv crossover is a pretty important part of the performance. But everything is long out of production. FWIW all in cost for speakers, crossover and three amps was IRO £1500. So we're very much at the cheap end of the slightly fancy hifi market.

If I were in Trevor's position with apparently a substantial budget I'd be straight out to buy some second hand active ATCs just to find out how well they worked for me. The bigger the better to the limit of the room. There is no doubt that they are a better speaker than the Isobarik, and consequently better than the great majority of other possibles.

Of course this doesn't mean that Trevor will like them.

(Looking at the prices a pair of ATC150 actives lists for less than a single NAP500, or just over two NAP300. It's got to be tempting, if you've the room.)

Paul