I don't like SBL's

Posted by: david needham on 20 March 2004

Hi

I've just ordered my next upgrade. Current sistem: CDX2/202/PSC/200/Flatcap2 into 15yr old Rogers LS6a2's on sand filled Target HJ15 stands.

I went to listen to an XPS2 - having been surprisingly underwhelmed when I last listened to it. I think the problem then was that I was upgrading from a CD5, and the dramatic difference between that and the CDX2 just blew me away

. I guess that for similar money I was expecting a similar earth-shattering difference when I added on the XPS2. This time however, I couldn't belive how wrong I'd been. Having had a few months to get used to what the CDX2 could do, I was aware of certain shortcomings, particularly with very complex music. The XPS2 sorted all those issues out, to the extent that when I went back to listening to the same piece of music without the XPS2, I couldn't quite accept how much I didn't like the bare CDX2

. Do NOT do this dem if you can't afford the upgrade - it'll really p**s you off!

Next however we got on to talking about my speakers and the fact that £5K of CD player into £500 of speaker may not be the most balanced sistem, and I might be limiting what I could get out of upgrades with my old faithful Rogers. So we hooked up a pair of SBL's to see what that famous Naim synergy could do. BLEAUGH!! I couldn't belive what I was (wasn't) hearing. I'd not heard SBL's before and admittedly my expectation were high from reading about them on the forum. But these made the music flat lifeless and one dimensional. In fact they didn't make music at all. All the "grunt" had gone from the sound. OK so there was a definate improvement in clarity and separation of instruments, but I hated everything else about them.

As I couldn't afford a full blown speaker upgrade on top of the XPS2, I didn't start listening to lots of alternatives (the SBL's were £695 second hand). However I did briefly listen to a pair of Shahinian Compass's, and they were much more what I was looking for. Perhaps they're the way to go when I've saved up some more pennies

.

So what a surprise - "source first" wins out again over "balanced sistem".

David

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Dev B

Laurie,

Drop it. I have no wish to have a virtual falling out with you.

If you re-read your earlier comments on this and the other recent thread I am sure that you can see what I mean.

Have a nice weekend.

regards

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Dev B

quote:
Originally posted by PR:
Dev

The problem with you is simple, you're just a little *anker with no merit.

PR,

Do you feel this sort of comment is really necessary. Behave!

Dev

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by NB

boys,

Is the summer madness apearing early this year? I thought this forum was about enjoying hi-fi and music!

Regards

NB

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

quote:
Drop it. I have no wish to have a virtual falling out with you

Nor I with you Dev

But its a bit rich, if you don`t mind me saying so, to assert publicly that I am arrogant, then to refrain from allowing me to respond, then suggesting I drop it.

That amounts(IMHO) to simple mud-slinging.....I`ll resist the temptation to respond in kind

I will indeed drop it, because ..life`s too short....no harm done...

have a nice weekend yourself

quote:
I thought this forum was about enjoying hi-fi and music!

I`ll second that NB

laurie S

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Dev B

Laurie,

I must have offended you with my comment of "arrogant". I apologise. Maybe I should have used another word which better carried my intended meaning, since it was absolutely not my intention to offend.

No hard feelings, I hope?

Dev

ps. have you upgraded your mains with 25mm2 armoured cable yet -- I think we should be told!

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

quote:
I must have offended you with my comment of "arrogant".

I am fairly thick skinned, Dev, and enjoy a good banter, and am immune to most kind of abuse.

Arrogance in others is something I myself deplore, and I like to think that I make efforts to avoid being so...because arrogance invariably is the public face of true ignorance(IMHO)..conversely, a truly thoughtful and perceptive individual usually displays humility

I am certainly not claiming perfection...

enough word play...

have a good weekend

quote:
Is it worth me saying that my SBLs filled my old room (12' x 12') very happily but now they are in a larger room (31' x 15') they work even better and happily fill the house with sound.

No? Thought not

hello Tom.....glad to hear this. Interestingly I have heard Isobariks improve when moved from a large room (c 30` x 20` x 12` high) to a much smaller room...they seemed to "drive" the room much better. I guess that ultimately, room/speaker interaction is subject to such a large number of factors, that trying to predict results in advance is a bit risky, to say the least. The ultimate test, I guess, is to actually try things out

I`ve always felt that one of the advantages of a smaller room is that less power is required to achieve the same sound (pressure) levels

all the best

laurie S

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Fri 26 March 2004 at 16:59.]

[This message was edited by Laurie Saunders on Fri 26 March 2004 at 17:01.]

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by andy c

Well, I pen a response to this thread that lasts more than 2dozen words etc....and get totally ignored again.

I'll go sit in me corner again.

andy c!

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

quote:
But quantity does matter.

Emil

I agree, though I suggest that when it reaches the point where one has to sacrifice quality to gain quantity, then perhaps, an optimum point has been reached, and further increases in quantity may be counterproductive, and not advisable. As always that point is a personal decision..

Laurie S

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by david needham

Andy

You're not being ignored, mate!

Trying to get back on track....... You're quite right, I only listened to the SBL's at a dealer's demo. It's a fair cop! I appreciate that the room plays a far greater influence on speaker upgrades than black boxes.

Actually, that gives me an idea. Why don't I get Dave to bring the SBL's round when he brings the XPS2? Then I would know for sure whether I like them in my listening room or not. That's the point you were making wasn't it?

David

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

quote:
my guess with rooms is that it's not just size but shape and proportions that make a difference. A far from simple subject that I know nothing about.

Hi Tom...I would add a few others to your list...flooring material & covering, wall structure, furnishings, windows.......I pecieve a very definite change when I draw my curtains
etc etc

I too, have too little knowledge on this topic, though trying things out sure is fun

quote:
With wine I always find that if you have enough quantity you tend to forget about the quality (and everything else)

Damn! - you`ve found the flaw in my analogy

quote:
Well, I pen a response to this thread that lasts more than 2dozen words etc....and get totally ignored again.

I'll go sit in me corner again.

Andy....not ignored at all. The contents of your post seem to make perfect sense to me and seem to echo precisely my thoughts

laurie S

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Alex S.

James: << I've never heard the Ultimatums, so I can't compare them to the E-IIIs. Alex S, you need to get yourself to Funkytown and let us know how they compare.>> Its going to be one hell of a hike! Shame you missed 'em by a couple of weeks. Nonetheless, one of my ambitions is to one day make it to Funkytown.

Alex

PS In virtual-land I'm a mild mannered soul. Sadly, in real-life I'm an arrogant *anker.

PPS To accuse an Ultimatum enthusiast of being a 'loadsabass' enthusiast is to rather miss the point.

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Mr.Tibbs

"Nonetheless, one of my ambitions is to one day make it to Funkytown."

Yes... then you'll get to see and hear what's needed to improve on the MF9's

"PS In virtual-land I'm a mild mannered soul. Sadly, in real-life I'm an arrogant *anker."

Excellent, we'll hit it off really well then.

Mr Tibbs

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

quote:
PPS To accuse an Ultimatum enthusiast of being a 'loadsabass' enthusiast is to rather miss the point.

I was careful not make the accusation you suggest. I was in fact alluding to the analogy of a car with an OTT engine

Having not heard the speakers I cannot comment on them

I`m sure that in the appropriate system/room thay perform very well, since they clearly find such widespread favour

Laurie S

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Emil F

my guess with rooms is that it's not just size but shape and proportions that make a difference. A far from simple subject that I know nothing about.

What is more important?

- ballance of the system
- amplification/speakers matching or
- speakers/room match

Tom

You pointed several times to the biggest possible upgrade: CDS3/552/3x500/DBLs. I listened to this mind blowing combo a few times and all I can add is ... and a dedicated room! Well and some mana sound stages under the speakers maybe.

Emil

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Bob Edwards

David--

Back on point, I think your idea of asking your dealer to bring SBLs when he delivers the XPS2 is terrific...and the only way you'll really know if you like them or not. Try to have them over a weekend (at least) if you can so you can acclimate to them.

You still might not like them, but you would have given them every chance...

Best,

Bob

Posted on: 26 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

Dev and NB

on re-reading some of the comments I posted earlier today, I can see how perhaps they might have been perceived as derogatory (though not intended as such) and some of the criticism levelled is now easier for me to sympathise with.

To try to explain: in trying to give my viewpoint more "bite" I probably overstated my case and inadvertantly strayed into territory that made it hard to distinguish my language from direct personal abuse. (ie use of "loadsabass brigade")

I stand by the central point I was making, though now accept that my phraseology was probably not well chosen

I hope that this post makes it clear that this was NOT intended, and apologise for any offence it may have caused

Laurie S

Posted on: 27 March 2004 by andy c

Dave,
good decision re trying them at home. I concur with the mentioned above fact you still may not like them, but at least you can bury that hatchet so to speak.
Just a couple of things: Don't let your dealer fob you off re the need to re-seal the gasket on the SBL's between the bottom box and the bass driver. if thats not properly sealed then they do sound pants.
Also when you get them just let the seals settle for as long as you dare - the silicone sealant goes off after a while which is beneficial especially if the speakers are to be driven hard

I have faffed about with my sbl's quite a bit - if you need any futher help and can't find your answers on the forum pt me ok...

andy c!

Posted on: 27 March 2004 by NB

Quote:-

I hope that this post makes it clear that this was NOT intended, and apologise for any offence it may have caused
___________________________________________________________

Laurie thanks for the apology although it was not really necessary. I appreciate that not everyone has the same view and I respect that. I was not offended by your remarks just a little dissapointed at being labelled a member of the "loadsabass" brigade without even attemping to find out my musical preferences.

As already asked earlier in this thread is a sistem consisting of a CDS3, 252/300 and Neat Ultimatums representitive of a bass friek. I admit I like powerfull music that has plenty of bass, but I prefer my music to have the real quality that my sistem possesses.

I withdrew from the earlier discussions as comments were starting to get far too personal for my liking. I am here for enjoyment and not here for the kind of childish comments that do nothing more than degrade the forum.

Regards

NB

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders

quote:
I withdrew from the earlier discussions as comments were starting to get far too personal for my liking. I am here for enjoyment and not here for the kind of childish comments that do nothing more than degrade the forum.

thanks NB...you have hit the nail on the head

Not wishing to bore other Forum users, I would just like to add:

I agree that personal abuse does degrade the discussion, and, as I said I try to avoid my comments being percieved in this way....in this case I can see how they might have been. Hence the apology.

Some of my preferences re: choice of kit may be at odds with the "norm"......I have preferences that differ from others, and express them (too?) strongly sometimes. This is not to suggest any "better" or "worse" (or impune anyone`s integrity for having different preferences)....others choices are perfectly valid..I would express it as:

"My own system is a not very good(according to some).-I am pefectly aware of shortcomings- It does some things badly, and some well (according to my criteria). There are lots of better systems out there. However, I cannot avoid that: I love listening to it.

Others may not agree, but that doen`t matter."

And vice versa

It is only Hi-Fi after all, but I guess we are ALL passionate about it and that should be grounds for good humour, not malice

And that`s all that really matters

regards

Laurie S

PS I love big speakers too, and could probably be accused of being a bass freak myself.

I would love to get a pair of Ultimatums home on trial, but I worry that I may end up "having" to buy them, and thus create a large hole in my bank balance

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by NB

Quote:-

PS I love big speakers too, and could probably be accused of being a bass freak myself.

I would love to get a pair of Ultimatums home on trial, but I worry that I may end up "having" to buy them, and thus create a large hole in my bank balance
_______________________________________________________________

Being a Bass Freak I have Katie Melua on at the moment

. It sounds breathtaking!

A word of advice Laurie, if you do manage to get a pair of Ultimatums home I would be very surprised if you let them leave the house as Alex S found.

Only get them home on trial if you are seriously prepared to spend your money. They sound wonderful no matter what type of music you listen to!

Regards

NB

[This message was edited by NB on Sun 28 March 2004 at 9:26.]

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by Mr.Tibbs

"I would love to get a pair of Ultimatums home on trial, but I worry that I may end up "having" to buy them, and thus create a large hole in my bank balance"

What about the 'statement' speakers you talked about building? Or do you think it's not possible to design and build a speaker at home, capable of mixing it with the elite?

"Only get them home on trial if you are seriously prepared to spend your money. They sound wonderful no matter what type of music you listen to!"

Er... just how much are a pair of MF9's then?

Mr Tibbs

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by NB

Mr Tibbs,

There about £9k depending what finish you go for!

Regards

NB

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by Mr.Tibbs

Ouch!!

Hold on a minute till I get back on my chair...

Now I see why they are called NINE's!

Mr Tibbs

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by NB

Mr Tibb's,

Got it in one!

It has nothng to do with them having 9 drive units really!

Have you got your breath back yet?

Regards

NB

Posted on: 28 March 2004 by Mr.Tibbs

"So we are discussing a £9000 pair of speakers (Neats) in a thread about a £2500 speaker (SBLs). Hmmm. That sounds like upgrade rather than seeking something similar."

Now you're getting the idea Tom!

Mr Tibbs