Can you have too much of a good thing?

Geoff, it will be very interesting to what you think when the xps2 arrives, my advice is hook it up, then listen to it for a few days then take it off and see what happens, I think you will be surprised, Ben r

quote:

---

So for instance the 250 added weight and deep bass control.

---

What did you have before?

quote:

---

What is alarming me here is that maybe you can have too much of a good thing.

---

there is the problem, IMO, of making the mistake that if something is "GOOD"" the more of it must be "BETTER"...balance, as always is the key...easy to say, but difficult to achieve, given how sensitive Naim kit is to supports, mains etc etc

quote:

---

Don't get me wrong the system still "swings" and there is great power in the sound but there is a very slight impression of nonchalance in the delivery which comes from the control that the system has at all times. "No ragged edges" would be another way to describe it.

---

In my experience, what can happen when the sound is "cleaner" is that the absence of (high frequency, usually) "tizz" can equate to loss of "excitement" or mistakenly a loss of leading edge/transient response...closer listening often reveals more detail presented in a less forced way

There is also a tendency to react negatively to anything which is unfamiliar, even when it is "better". A better indicator, would be to return to youroriginal setup, once you have got used to the new presentation.....any gains would be more easily noticed IMO


Some listeners (not Naim owners of course! )
feel that the music only becomes exciting when the system is playing loud, on the brink of distortion. As the system gets cleaner/more powerful, these listeners have to crank the volume up to get the same, edge of seat excitement. ie they only enjoy the music when the sytem is being driven to within an inch of its life

I`ve found that if you concentrate on microscopic details of presentation it is often misleading.....try to judge the whole musical experience:

1. did the system make it difficult to stop listening to?....ie was it hard to tear yourself away from it?

2. Did unfamiliar tracks "knock you out"

3. Did the system effectively "get out of the way" and allow you to forget about it, with only the music mattering

quote:

---

but I am not sure that as each new piece has been added the combined effect has not produced a bit too much "richness" at the expense of excitiment.

---

this comment suggests that you are still concentrating on technical details of the sound, and that, therefore,it is not quite right


Music should be exciting, IMO

This could be for a number of reasons......not necessarily all to do with the boxes of electronics, IMO

just a few thoughts

laurie S

Great post Laurie, I am impressed, really!
Regards
Edouard

Ben

I have noted your posts on the XPS2 and anticipate it's arrival eagerly. I will certainly report on what I think later when it is well and truly "in" the system.

Laurie

Thanks for your excellent reply. Let me fill in a bit more background and at the same time answer your points.

Before the 250 I had a 150 and in fairness the poor thing was struggling a bit to drive my speakers (isobarik Totem Mani 2's), though it was not half bad. My comment about the 250 was shortened for space reasons.It was a revelation and showed what real power control could do.

On the "GOOD" going to "BETTER" thing. I have yet to feel that there is any failure in the balance of the system as it has progressed. I did re-visit my 112/HiCap/150 against the 282/HiCap/250 at one stage and was suitably pleased with my new investment over the old. No regerets there at all. Each step has been worthy and beneficial. I certainly appreciated the addition of the Fraim though. It was a revelation, out of all proportion to my expectations.

"Cleaner" sound. Your description is dead on. The Totem's can add to any "tizziness" coming from the recording. The interesting thing here was that the Fraim did part of the job of dealing with that, but at the same time shrapened up the response from CDX2 a bit, especially providing more "bite" in the higher frequency's.

The addition of the Supercap brought that nicely under control so that now I have excellent extension and "air" to the sound which is not over-bright.

I do also agree about the volume thing. I noticed that when the 282 replaced the 112 at an early stage in the upgarde journey. It was so much "quieter" bcause it was such a clean delivery, and this has expanded with the other additons, in particular the SC. I am not a "volume" freak but because the sound is so clean I often end up around 9.00 on the volume knob as the evening progresses.

On the 3 questions taken in order.

1) A defenite yes -- I can listen for hours. No fatigue and no desire to stop

2) Again blowing the dust off a lttle played CD is always an eye-opener now.

3) In all fairness YES the system can get out of the way WHEN I allow it to.I think that may be the problem which is in line with your comment about getting "past" the technical performance.

I think the most recent addition, the Supercap, has defenitely brought the system öut of adolesence so I need to grow with it.

I am of the opinion that I am the guilty party in this. On occassion I seem to be staring into the black boxes and mentally extracting the sound I expect to hear from them. Big Mistake I know.!!!

When I get past that, which is most of the time, the music is great.

This is all very tenuous really, but an intersting effect, exacerbated by the subjective variability of personality and atmosphere.

regards
GEOFF

Geoff,

The best thing you can do is switch the whole lot off, leave it 24 hours and power it all up again.Let your senses grow with the gradual improvement while warming up. I have heard that the new stuff benefits from being powered down on a regular basis!!.

David

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Folks

I have been building a nice "set" of new reference series Naim over the past year or so.
The first purchase was CDX2 and the process will "end" (note this brave declaration) back there when the XPS2 arrives in a week or so to bolt onto the "bare" CDX2 that started it all.

So what I have now is CDX2/282/Supercap/250mkii on Fraim. The system has grown in power and dynamics in different ways as each component arrived. There are obviously elements of the total musical experience which can be strongly linked to the different components which certainly deliver as expected.
So for instance the 250 added weight and deep bass control. The 282 revealed the density of the signal coming from the CDX2 as it bedded in and the Supercap enhanced the detail and timing of the delivery from the 282. Putting it all on Fraim was the biggest VFM purchase IMO. Everything tightened up in a way that delighted and encouraged higher level listening.

This all great stuff and exactly as expected.

The other long running message particulalrly w.r.t. the CD players and the power amps is that the new series is more "rounded" and "richer" sounding at the possible expense of some absolute dynamics and a little of the famous PRaT. I have never heard the original series so cannot confirm this but to my ears the richness while apparent is musical and pleasing.

What is alarming me here is that maybe you can have too much of a good thing.

I was listening to the current system pretty heavily over the weekend as a kind of "before" session in preparation for the "after" session when the XPS2 is here, when I realised that it was all getting a bit "mellow". All the elements I described above are there but I am not sure that as each new piece has been added the combined effect has not produced a bit too much "richness" at the expense of excitiment.

Don't get me wrong the system still "swings" and there is great power in the sound but there is a very slight impression of nonchalance in the delivery which comes from the control that the system has at all times. "No ragged edges" would be another way to describe it.

I am now a bit worried that the XPS2 will give even more control and mellowness which I am not sure I need.

Is this something others have observed and does this "control" effect build with the old series in a detectable way?

Your thoughts and comments are encouraged.

regards
GEOFF

---

Hy Geoff!
Imo we are talking here about the difference
between upgrade and sidegrade.
We had this in another thread with nait3vs nait 5i. to me two different sound designs.
Using the word "richer"means to me that there
is something new what i missed,or there is something added or better changed in tonal colouration.Right would be no tonal colouration Having heared a lot of systems I
will definitly n o t follow the argument
that systems with more distortion are less boring. Go and listen to classical instruments:
n o t boring and zerodistortion.
a good system means to me:not boring at low levels,perfectly clear (and same not boring at high(and very high)
levels, never loosing prat and imaging.
O.J.

quote:

---

Geoff,

The best thing you can do is switch the whole lot off, leave it 24 hours and power it all up again.Let your senses grow with the gradual improvement while warming up. I have heard that the new stuff benefits from being powered down on a regular basis!!.

---

David.
Sounds a bit radical. On the other hand I did turn it all off for 5 weeks recently when I was away on an extended business trip. It sounded bloody marvellous when I switched it back on, after it had warmed up but, I put that down to my ears "doing without" my beloved HiFi for 5 weeks.

quote:

---

Using the word "richer"means to me that there
is something new what i missed,or there is something added or better changed in tonal colouration.Right would be no tonal colouration Having heared a lot of systems I
will definitly n o t follow the argument
that systems with more distortion are less boring. Go and listen to classical instruments:

---

o.j.
I don't disagree with what you say though I am a little uncomfortable with the Nait analogy considering how much this all cost, though that is not the point. My use of terms like "richness" is a clumsy attempt at describing qualities in the music heard and is not to imply the presence of distortion. I don't really want to think about that. That way lies a whole different discussion about "what is distorted" and "what is not distorted" as heard thru' a particular system.

quote:

---

After the demo, I am seriously thinking of giving the linn a try in my system. Was contemplating getting the cdx2 in the next few months, now I just don't know.There may be something to this linn thing afterall

---

Oh Dear!! . Max what have I done.
Please, please DO contemplate getting a CDX2 in the next few months. It is not the area of my system that has brought forth this discussion. I bought the CDX2 first of all and it has "boogied' ever since.

If anything the biggest offender as I said earlier is me needing to forget the equipment and just enjoy the music.

I have been trying that this evening by closing my eyes. I think it may be working.

regards
GEOFF

Hello Geoff, you have a good post here, I will be reporting my findings in about a month, I have xps2/cdx2/282/hicap/2502/ninkas...I also have a pair of Allaes and Neat Mystiques...in the reference to Linn, I also have an Ikemi.wakonda/lk100 and to throw dogs to the wind I have some tube gear, VTL and radii,Yep could start me a store....BUT what I am going to do AFTER I feel everything is burned in is really give them all a fly....and I simply use the "it sounds better...it sounds about the same...or it sounds worse scenarios...I feel my memory is pretty good with this stuff...I have done some quick AB but I realize the Naim gear needs more time...to wit I received the 282 around 2 weeks ago and it did sound better out of the box than the 202...then it went sideways...teething I call it..then just a few days ago a MARKED improvement..could be the amp and the cd player all warming up...dont know for sure...but I have read that people say 1to 2 months for full run in...when I had the 202/200 heard another improvement 4 weeks in so I really want to give it a full run, I have been primarily usung the Ninkas to keep it simple...when it is all run in I will switch....like I said before the best way to demo the xps2 is to take it of....mellow is not the word I used....will give a good compare with Linn Ikemi too...whew...long one I know...but I am really going to give this one its due....because I have heard Naim gear sound better after major burn in,,,,How long have you had yours??? thanks for reading Ben r

Mad max,

in my system also, I'd probably would have taken Ikemi over a bare CDX2.

Ikemi had more life and was fun to listen to. ( yet this player gets accused of being laid back quite often ) You ought to try it in your system as it behaves differently depending on a system it sits. I'v heard this player becoming from a boring snoozer to an exciting overachiever.

But, adding an XPS2 did turned a table for Naim's favor where an 'expensive' 5k player becomes very competitive 9k player amongst peers.But boy.. forget a digital and just do analogue would be whole lot more economical.

I didn't feel adding XPS2 gave a system 'polite' demeaner per se, but, it opens up an entire frequency and gave the music better breathing space. I didn't think it slowed down the music any. ( this was a remarkable thing, actually ) A bare CDX2 was too *sissy* sounding for me. XPS2 added more balls.

Hy Geoff!One of the reasons i came to naim(nait3) was
the feeling that most of the big (and expensive preamp/ amp combos,last i had jeff rowland)seemed a little bit " slow ".Same experience i had with cd transport /dac combos.
my theory is that the endless power of an amp
in most cases makes it slower.between transport
and dac there is maybe often a cable or a jitter problem.
I also do not know exactly how naims capingsystem works, but as been told you get a
cleaner(longer) voltage path a n d a longer signal path.And this both can (theoretically) slower the acceleration of your loudspeaker.
chassis.
My experience tells me that boring or polite sound means "not accurate" and if there is not
a mismatch between a power or ohmstability demanding speaker and a not powerful enough
amp,(which cannot be the case if you put an amp
in the chain that is more powerful and from same manufacturer you had before)there are only
the before named reasons left.
O.J.(musiclisteningandtunefollowinginannotlinnrelgious way)

quote:

---

Originally posted by hockman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geoff P:
If anything the biggest offender as I said earlier is me needing to forget the equipment and just enjoy the music.

I have been trying that this evening by closing my eyes. I think it may be working.

regards
GEOFF

---

I've been as bad an offender as anyone else, if not worse!

The problem with continual upgrades is that you end up listening to the equipment (i.e. sound) rather than the music. This is inevitable. After spending loads of money, your expectations get raised inordinately and get caught up with all the "improvements" that you should be getting. This is the kiss of death as far as music is concerned.

Over the last couple of years, I've been trying to get away from all this and return fully to the enjoyment of music. You just have to decide to stop and say, enough is enough and forget about the equipment.

Good luck,

Hock

---

HY Hockman!Many of us decided that we will stop but nobody decided when.
Nevertheless i perfectly agree with your excellent comment.
But do not forget you needed a lot of experience and objectivity and time to get this
point of view and so will other persons do.(still on their way)

O.J.

quote:

---

I often end up around 9.00 on the volume knob as the evening progresses.

---

Just to put it into context, my CDP has a somewhat higher output than normal (2.4V with a 12ohm output impedance), and my speakers are quite sensitive and easy to drive (89dB with the usual qualifications)

When i really want some excitement, the volume control can find itself at 11`oclock....my ears bottoming out, are usually the first to throw in the towel!

laurie S

Geoff

It seems to me that you are going the all naim route... speakers?

Emil

Geoff,

in reference to your high praise for Fraim,
what did you have before to which you are apparently now comparing it to?

Myself, I have active 250's (olive) going to SBL's and find playing with the SNAXO can tweak the sound significantly. My CDS2 is coupled with the 252. I still have that bite to my system although it is more sophisticated and revealing than before my latest upgrade which was the 252/SC2 combo.

Regards,



Rich

"does the end of the tunnel still have a light if no one's there to see it?"

Hock

I agree with your comments and think I have fallen into the same trap. I can see I am goingto have to work on that.

o.j.

I do agree that they lower power, entry level systems can sound lively which can be enticing, and with the proviso that you don't drive them hard it all hangs together and gives an impression of "speed" to the music.
The more expensive sophisticated Naim kit IMO is certainly not "slow", it can drive to higher levels and keep control. The onset of harshness or clipping is not so low down the volume control. As the power supplies get added the harshness shifts further up the volume ladder and ends up beyond sensible listening levels. I know I can drive my system as high as Laurie does and it all holds up nicely. No way could I do that with the less sophisticated kit.

What this does is get you listening to the system at higher average volumes and the dynamics and excitement really get going. With the right amount of drive an expensive NAIM system (note the qualifier here) should not sound "slow" but I do understand what you are talking about and can see how it can happen with other makes of system like Krell and Levinson for example

Laurie

HELLO CAN YOU HEAR ME!! WOW.

I have 84dB speakers and a CDX2. I can get it up to 10 on the 282 and for a short time 10.30 but my ears give out there.

Emil

I mentioned earlier I have Totem speakers. I could change to Naim BUT the speakers have been there all along and have never been "slow" so the changes in the music are definitely in the system.

NEW COMMENT

Just to confuse matters, or maybe a part explanation of my listening problem.
I have just discovered what Vinyl CAN sound like. This does not help except it could be another point in the systems favor. It certainly has more in air and life" in it than I expected.

regards
GEOFF

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Hock

I agree with your comments and think I have fallen into the same trap. I can see I am goingto have to work on that.

o.j.

I do agree that they lower power, entry level systems can sound lively which can be enticing, and with the proviso that you don't drive them hard it all hangs together and gives an impression of "speed" to the music.
The more expensive sophisticated Naim kit IMO is certainly not "slow", it can drive to higher levels and keep control. The onset of harshness or clipping is not so low down the volume control. As the power supplies get added the harshness shifts further up the volume ladder and ends up beyond sensible listening levels. I know I can drive my system as high as Laurie does and it all holds up nicely. No way could I do that with the less sophisticated kit.

What this does is get you listening to the system at higher average volumes and the dynamics and excitement really get going. With the right amount of drive an expensive NAIM system (note the qualifier here) should not sound "slow" but I do understand what you are talking about and can see how it can happen with other makes of system like Krell and Levinson for example

Laurie

HELLO CAN YOU HEAR ME!! WOW.

I have 84dB speakers and a CDX2. I can get it up to 10 on the 282 and for a short time 10.30 but my ears give out there.

Emil

I mentioned earlier I have Totem speakers. I could change to Naim BUT the speakers have been there all along and have never been "slow" so the changes in the music are definitely in the system.

NEW COMMENT

Just to confuse matters, or maybe a part explanation of my listening problem.
I have just discovered what Vinyl CAN sound like. This does not help except it could be another point in the systems favor. It certainly has more in air and life" in it than I expected.

regards
GEOFF

---

Hy Laurie!Hy geoff!I listen now over twenty
years to all different hifi systems,and i am
sometimes really impressed how you both can describe exactly your experiences.

Here is one experience of mine.(for me the most intresting in my hifi-music live and one of the most intresting in my whole life.)
I heared roksan xerxes artemiz shiraz all supersetted on roksan table with fm122 phono
and a small preamp amp combo of fm on a b&w
804 matrix.all cables including cable from tonearm where Fm acoustics.
i started to hear on a low level and was blown
away from the first moment.Never heared such
clearity, prat and information of any other hifi system ,and thought all other sytems i ever listened were damnaged in compare to this.
no twinker of an eye it seemed nessecary to think about bass ,treble, or imaging.I swear you it was the point where i missed realy nothing. Nothing?come on iwanted to hear
led zeppelin or frank zappa or korsakovs scheherazade as loud as in a real concert,and like after a good magic demonstration i wanted
to know what was the trick? i raised from my
chair (no remote control )and brought the volume knob to twelve oclock,to 4 oclock and
to the end.and then i realized:no trick zero distortion very very loud,and best ever heared.

Myself had jeff rowland system at home at this time,and i know quite alot other excellent transistor like treshold,pass,transistor audio
research,bryston and others.
difficult to discuss if they are more or less
musical than Fm,but easy to notice that they
all sound like through a wall of fog compared
to fm or real music.

O.J.

quote:

---

Geoff,

in reference to your high praise for Fraim,
what did you have before to which you are apparently now comparing it to?

Myself, I have active 250's (olive) going to SBL's and find playing with the SNAXO can tweak the sound significantly. My CDS2 is coupled with the 252. I still have that bite to my system although it is more sophisticated and revealing than before my latest upgrade which was the 252/SC2 combo.

---

Rick

Before the Fraim I had a rack that looked something like the attached (ignore the equipment on it). It was really just a piece of style furniture.

I believe a CDS2 is to a 252/SC as a CDX2/XPS2 is to a 282/SC, both are stes compliment each other. That is not to say it is wrong to match up a CDX2/XPS2 with a 252 but I would think the temptation would be there to replace the head unit with a CDS3 if you started down that road.

Rich an o.j. I think the following applies to both your comments.

I guess what we are saying here is the sophistication increases with higher end kit, which actually brings out the depth of detail in the music more and more. Perhaps to the inexperienced ear this increase ìn depth can be identified superficially as a more mellow sound. It is in effect a two way street.

As the equipment gets more sophisticated it requires the listner to hear with a more sophisticated "ear" to fully appreciate what is being presented through the speakers.The excitement is still there but it has different presentation.

regards
GEOFF

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geoff P:
As the equipment gets more sophisticated it requires the listner to hear with a more sophisticated "ear" to fully appreciate what is being presented through the speakers.The excitement is still there but it has different presentation.

---

Geoff.

What is exactly 'sophisticated ' ear?

What's next?
A 'sophisticated' music required?

Rich

Here is the rack picture I forgot earlier.

quote:

---

Geoff.

What is exactly 'sophisticated ' ear?

What's next?
A 'sophisticated' music required?

---

Ah the danger hidden in words!!

Kuma
I was trying to cover up my inability to express myself properly.
What I was trying to say is that the first adventure into the musical experience is often about the latest "top of the pops" music and about playing it loud to get the full excitement out. If the HiFi bug bites you get drawn further into the musical experience and start to listen to more than just the excitment. Now the detail in the music starts to attract your attention but you can't let go of the need for everything to still come across with energy and perhaps a bit of a raw edge to remind you of the earlier listening days.
Moving further down the musical road is usually about exploring different forms of music, hearing Jazz and classical, understanding more about changes of pace, timing, nuance and atmosphere hidden in the music. The ëxcitement now is in different aspects of music. It is about apreciating the scale of a piece, the effect of subtle timing changes, the balance between rythum and melody. You are listening with what I called a "sophisticated" ear. You are still moved by the delivery of the music but the need to have total energy the raw edge is not what attractsso much now.

In reality there are hidden depths in most music (there is some stuff that has no depths to it) which a more advanced HiFi system brings out in full detail. It's there for you to appreciate but it does require you to want to hear it.

Of course you may think this is all nonsense but thats my view.

regards
GEOFF

When I - rarely - purchase a new component I usually have a difficult time second guessing, "is it or is it not really better, in what ways, blah, blah, blah." This happened when I "upgraded" from Keilidhs to Ninka's. Invariably the new component favours certain recordings over others. I am sure that some of your recordings benefit from the added richness that perhaps takes some of the excitment from others. I find purchasing new recordings and listening to these helps free me from the endless comparisons and psycho-accoustic mind games I play on myself with new gear.It helps me enjoy the system on its own merits not in comparison to my - probably inaccurate - memory of the earlier incarnation of the system.

Garth

quote:

---

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Moving further down the musical road is usually about exploring different forms of music, hearing Jazz and classical, understanding more about changes of pace, timing, nuance and atmosphere hidden in the music. The ëxcitement now is in different aspects of music. It is about apreciating the scale of a piece, the effect of subtle timing changes, the balance between rythum and melody. You are listening with what I called a "sophisticated" ear. You are still moved by the delivery of the music but the need to have total energy the raw edge is not what attractsso much now.

In reality there are hidden depths in most music (there is some stuff that has no depths to it) which a more advanced HiFi system brings out in full detail. It's there for you to appreciate but it does require you to want to hear it.

---

Geoff,

I enjoyed your thoughts on this.
I think I know what you are on about.
'Going further down the musical road' on hi-end ladder, I've noticed there are just too many kits that focused on nuance and atmosphere and totally forget the fun aspect of the music listening that I've enjoyed when I was in high school.

Tremendous amount of attention was paid to squeeze out the most minute details, yet, sometimes I miss that rawness. It is a balancing act for various producers as the stake gets higher.

I can certainly appreciate listening 'for' something different. I guess I never disect the music that way. In fact, I try not to listen. I try to feel it. Sort of like a go with a flow. Listening to my gut, I found, is far more accurate to find out to see if I can live with any kit in a long run.

Altho, I admit that I have gone through a 'hi-fi' phase just like anyone who's get into this hobby and still will try new things.

But I think I'm going back to my roots now.

Hock,

Thought you just said you were giving up on upgrading? Thought not.

Did you find the Bjornstad CD btw?

Colin Lorenson

I'm just feeling that way. I don't know why.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hockman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by o.j.:
Here is one experience of mine.(for me the most intresting in my hifi-music live and one of the most intresting in my whole life.)
I heared roksan xerxes artemiz shiraz all supersetted on roksan table with fm122 phono
and a small preamp amp combo of fm on a b&w
804 matrix.all cables including cable from tonearm where Fm acoustics.
i started to hear on a low level and was blown
away from the first moment.Never heared such
clearity, prat and information of any other hifi system ,and thought all other sytems i ever listened were damnaged in compare to this.
no twinker of an eye it seemed nessecary to think about bass ,treble, or imaging.I swear you it was the point where i missed realy nothing. Nothing?come on iwanted to hear
led zeppelin or frank zappa or korsakovs scheherazade as loud as in a real concert,and like after a good magic demonstration i wanted
to know what was the trick? i raised from my
chair (no remote control )and brought the volume knob to twelve oclock,to 4 oclock and
to the end.and then i realized:no trick zero distortion very very loud,and best ever heared.

Myself had jeff rowland system at home at this time,and i know quite alot other excellent transistor like treshold,pass,transistor audio
research,bryston and others.
difficult to discuss if they are more or less
musical than Fm,but easy to notice that they
all sound like through a wall of fog compared
to fm or real music.

O.J.

---

OJ:

What FM combo of pre and power was that? The finest system I've ever heard was also an FM one into Genesis speakers -- the top Naim system doesn't even come close. I agree, the music just flows like live music and you stop thinking about the gear. My wife said why do I even bother with Naim.

Problem is the FM is very very expensive. I'd go for an all FM system if I could afford it and ditch my NAP500. The 122 is very tempting.

Hock

---

Hy Hock! it was the smallest preamp
half wide housing nearby 30 cm, same width as phono122 and not soooo expensive (i think nearby 5000 euro), imo ridiculous price for this quality and the smallest also non symetrical amp. i think i remember the combo
costed nearby 15000 euro.

I tryied also with speakers of new nautilus series ithink nautilus 803?,and with burmester speakers and
magnepan,and trenner and friedel speakers(walker and parker)
All those speakers sounded better than ever heared before,But with 804 matrix it was the
superperfect package.

3 reasons why i did not buy:
804 matrix needs nearby 80cm to back wall.(to
small rooms in my flat)
no remote control.
Not that the sound is worse playing not loud,but you know you can and you w i l l,
and i am sure you will have problems with your
neighbours,starting your every day live concert.(and what i have tested it sounds also
live in the next room or outside the house)
O.J.

quote:

---

Tremendous amount of attention was paid to squeeze out the most minute details, yet, sometimes I miss that rawness. It is a balancing act for various producers as the stake gets higher.

I can certainly appreciate listening 'for' something different. I guess I never disect the music that way. In fact, I try not to listen. I try to feel it. Sort of like a go with a flow. Listening to my gut, I found, is far more accurate to find out to see if I can live with any kit in a long run.

Altho, I admit that I have gone through a 'hi-fi' phase just like anyone who's get into this hobby and still will try new things.

But I think I'm going back to my roots now.

---

Kuma

It is a balancing act! Trying to describe thoughts and feelings about music inevitably is a precis of much more complex emotion.
I do agree that you should "feel" the music. I came across perhaps as focussing on analysis.
It is a complex combination of these factors. I can be listening to a favorite piece of music, perhaps chosen because it "swings" and I want to feel some excitment. I may be snapping my fingers and tapping my feet but at the same time a sudden combination of sounds and artistry will catch me and bring a nod of appreciation at the skill of the musicians.
At another level a background thought flashes thru' along the lines that the compexity of the music is fully presented without merging into a mess of competing instrumental sounds and there is appreciation for the ability of the equipment to sort this complexity out and portray it all, something NAIM does very well.

I just wanted to clarify that the music gets to me in a multitude of ways and having a system that can do this very well enhances that experience.

The other comment is that in my teenage years (the fact that I bought Elvis and Bill Haley on 78 shellac might tell you something) I did not get all this from the music, and that was not only because of the crap equipment (Dansette) it was because "hey man you don't have time to listen".

Ramble, Ramble, ramble......

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whew...long one I know...but I am really going to give this one its due....because I have heard Naim gear sound better after major burn in,,,,How long have you had yours??? thanks for reading Ben r

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Ben

I started the upgrade about a year ago with the CDX2. Over time the 282 came (on a HiCap) then the 250mkII then in one go the Fraim and the Supercap. That was completed in Dec '03. So I have been listening to a set of equipment thats "stable" for about 2 months (allowing for final burn in).
I experienced, as do we all< the effects you describe. It has been particularly noticeable with the 250 and the Supercap. The 250 as great for about 48 hours then just went "south" for about 2 weeks (oh the agony of it). The Supercap did'nt do that it kinda blossomed slowly.
I rekon the CDX2 was still giving out little surprises about 6 weeks in orginally.

Look forward to hearing how you think yours sounds since this is very much apersonal experience.

O.J. & Hock

I assume you guys are talking about american equipment and I also am guessing there mightbe some valves in there somewhere. I visit the US on business and have observed the "big room" syndrome which equates to US standards of scale. Is this discussion about equipment built to fill out a "concert hall".

Anyway having power to play with is a factor in the sound you are talking about I am sure.


regards
GEOFF

Hello Geoff, good to hear that about the 250, I am experiencing pretty much the same thing, I first hooked it up it was okay, then better, then I added the 282 about 2 and a half weeks ago, so I am figuring my starting point from there, the last 2 weeks has been a rollercoaster, it was ok,not great for 2 weeks, then a marked improvewment, now for the past few days it seems to be really teething, cant tell if it is the power amp or preamp,but it is weird, will let you know results, thanks,Ben r