Can you have too much of a good thing?
Posted by: Geoff P on 05 April 2004
Folks
I have been building a nice "set" of new reference series Naim over the past year or so.
The first purchase was CDX2 and the process will "end" (note this brave declaration) back there when the XPS2 arrives in a week or so to bolt onto the "bare" CDX2 that started it all.
So what I have now is CDX2/282/Supercap/250mkii on Fraim. The system has grown in power and dynamics in different ways as each component arrived. There are obviously elements of the total musical experience which can be strongly linked to the different components which certainly deliver as expected.
So for instance the 250 added weight and deep bass control. The 282 revealed the density of the signal coming from the CDX2 as it bedded in and the Supercap enhanced the detail and timing of the delivery from the 282. Putting it all on Fraim was the biggest VFM purchase IMO. Everything tightened up in a way that delighted and encouraged higher level listening.
This all great stuff and exactly as expected.
The other long running message particulalrly w.r.t. the CD players and the power amps is that the new series is more "rounded" and "richer" sounding at the possible expense of some absolute dynamics and a little of the famous PRaT. I have never heard the original series so cannot confirm this but to my ears the richness while apparent is musical and pleasing.
What is alarming me here is that maybe you can have too much of a good thing.
I was listening to the current system pretty heavily over the weekend as a kind of "before" session in preparation for the "after" session when the XPS2 is here, when I realised that it was all getting a bit "mellow". All the elements I described above are there but I am not sure that as each new piece has been added the combined effect has not produced a bit too much "richness" at the expense of excitiment.
Don't get me wrong the system still "swings" and there is great power in the sound but there is a very slight impression of nonchalance in the delivery which comes from the control that the system has at all times. "No ragged edges" would be another way to describe it.
I am now a bit worried that the XPS2 will give even more control and mellowness which I am not sure I need.
Is this something others have observed and does this "control" effect build with the old series in a detectable way?
Your thoughts and comments are encouraged.
regards
GEOFF
I have been building a nice "set" of new reference series Naim over the past year or so.
The first purchase was CDX2 and the process will "end" (note this brave declaration) back there when the XPS2 arrives in a week or so to bolt onto the "bare" CDX2 that started it all.
So what I have now is CDX2/282/Supercap/250mkii on Fraim. The system has grown in power and dynamics in different ways as each component arrived. There are obviously elements of the total musical experience which can be strongly linked to the different components which certainly deliver as expected.
So for instance the 250 added weight and deep bass control. The 282 revealed the density of the signal coming from the CDX2 as it bedded in and the Supercap enhanced the detail and timing of the delivery from the 282. Putting it all on Fraim was the biggest VFM purchase IMO. Everything tightened up in a way that delighted and encouraged higher level listening.
This all great stuff and exactly as expected.
The other long running message particulalrly w.r.t. the CD players and the power amps is that the new series is more "rounded" and "richer" sounding at the possible expense of some absolute dynamics and a little of the famous PRaT. I have never heard the original series so cannot confirm this but to my ears the richness while apparent is musical and pleasing.
What is alarming me here is that maybe you can have too much of a good thing.
I was listening to the current system pretty heavily over the weekend as a kind of "before" session in preparation for the "after" session when the XPS2 is here, when I realised that it was all getting a bit "mellow". All the elements I described above are there but I am not sure that as each new piece has been added the combined effect has not produced a bit too much "richness" at the expense of excitiment.
Don't get me wrong the system still "swings" and there is great power in the sound but there is a very slight impression of nonchalance in the delivery which comes from the control that the system has at all times. "No ragged edges" would be another way to describe it.
I am now a bit worried that the XPS2 will give even more control and mellowness which I am not sure I need.
Is this something others have observed and does this "control" effect build with the old series in a detectable way?
Your thoughts and comments are encouraged.
regards
GEOFF
quote:Hy Geoff !as been said by Hockman,
Originally posted by Geoff P:quote:
Tremendous amount of attention was paid to squeeze out the most minute details, yet, sometimes I miss that rawness. It is a balancing act for various producers as the stake gets higher.
I can certainly appreciate listening 'for' something different. I guess I never disect the music that way. In fact, I try not to listen. I try to feel it. Sort of like a go with a flow. Listening to my gut, I found, is far more accurate to find out to see if I can live with any kit in a long run.
Altho, I admit that I have gone through a 'hi-fi' phase just like anyone who's get into this hobby and still will try new things.
But I think I'm going back to my roots now.
Kuma
It is a balancing act! Trying to describe thoughts and feelings about music inevitably is a precis of much more complex emotion.
I do agree that you should "feel" the music. I came across perhaps as focussing on analysis.
It is a complex combination of these factors. I can be listening to a favorite piece of music, perhaps chosen because it "swings" and I want to feel some excitment. I may be snapping my fingers and tapping my feet but at the same time a sudden combination of sounds and artistry will catch me and bring a nod of appreciation at the skill of the musicians.
At another level a background thought flashes thru' along the lines that the compexity of the music is fully presented without merging into a mess of competing instrumental sounds and there is appreciation for the ability of the equipment to sort this complexity out and portray it all, something NAIM does very well.
I just wanted to clarify that the music gets to me in a multitude of ways and having a system that can do this very well enhances that experience.
The other comment is that in my teenage years (the fact that I bought Elvis and Bill Haley on 78 shellac might tell you something) I did not get all this from the music, and that was not only because of the crap equipment (Dansette) it was because "hey man you don't have time to listen".
Ramble, Ramble, ramble......quote:
whew...long one I know...but I am really going to give this one its due....because I have heard Naim gear sound better after major burn in,,,,How long have you had yours??? thanks for reading Ben r
Ben
I started the upgrade about a year ago with the CDX2. Over time the 282 came (on a HiCap) then the 250mkII then in one go the Fraim and the Supercap. That was completed in Dec '03. So I have been listening to a set of equipment thats "stable" for about 2 months (allowing for final burn in).
I experienced, as do we all< the effects you describe. It has been particularly noticeable with the 250 and the Supercap. The 250 as great for about 48 hours then just went "south" for about 2 weeks (oh the agony of it). The Supercap did'nt do that it kinda blossomed slowly.
I rekon the CDX2 was still giving out little surprises about 6 weeks in orginally.
Look forward to hearing how you think yours sounds since this is very much apersonal experience.
O.J. & Hock
I assume you guys are talking about american equipment and I also am guessing there mightbe some valves in there somewhere. I visit the US on business and have observed the "big room" syndrome which equates to US standards of scale. Is this discussion about equipment built to fill out a "concert hall".
Anyway having power to play with is a factor in the sound you are talking about I am sure.
regards
GEOFF
Fm acoustic is swiss.There are ndefinitly no
valves inside and it also does not look like
american super audio high end macho stuff.Can.t
tell you about technical circuits inside.But
i know definitly that they have a quality selection of parts inside that is 1000 more
than in the second best gear on the whole market.I do not often judge that radical about
music reproduction stuff,but me (and i think
Hockman too)and also all others who ever heared
Fmacoustics will tell you imediatly that all other hifi amps are crap or more friendly:a toy
agaist Fm performance.(including mark levison,krell,jeff rowland,pass,and of course
all super valves like audio research conrad johnson and so on)
You may Think me and hockman are mad or radical or deaf,but if you ever get a chance
to hear Fm,do it and you will be immediatly member in our club.
thing i never heared and therefore will not judge if possibly in FM league:Halcro
quote:
Originally posted by o.j.:
thing i never heared and therefore will not judge if possibly in FM league:Halcro
o.j.
but, Halcro has absolutely no sense of humor.
quote:Hy Kuma!You mean soundwise?
Originally posted by kuma:quote:
Originally posted by o.j.:
thing i never heared and therefore will not judge if possibly in FM league:Halcro
o.j.
but, Halcro has absolutely no sense of humor.
You have heared?(earnest Question)
FM has all humor (or better emotion you can ever imagine)
or maybe you comment clinical halcro housing look.?
Or did i something not understand
O.J.(forgettingwholeflatandroundworldinhisfmmania)
quote:
Originally posted by o.j.:
You have heared?(earnest Question)
FM has all humor (or better emotion you can ever imagine)
or maybe you comment clinical halcro housing look.?
o.j.
sorry I know I wasn't clear.
Yeah.. I have heard big Halcro DM 58 & 68 amps with Wilson speakers which I also have heard with Naim electronics.
Whilst I admire Halcro's *distortion free* wide bandwidth claim, the system left me with nothing emotionally. It was an intersting contrast against same speakers driven by Naim gear. For sure they take somewhat of an opposite view.
Halcro did nothing particularly wrong. In fact it was rather spectacular in a hi-fi sense.
As for Halcro's industrial design, I don't care for 'em either as they are too obtrusive and ostentatious looking.
quote:Hy Kuma!
Originally posted by kuma:quote:
Originally posted by o.j.:
You have heared?(earnest Question)
FM has all humor (or better emotion you can ever imagine)
or maybe you comment clinical halcro housing look.?
o.j.
sorry I know I wasn't clear.
Yeah.. I have heard big Halcro DM 58 & 68 amps with Wilson speakers which I also have heard with Naim electronics.
Whilst I admire Halcro's *distortion free* wide bandwidth claim, the system left me with nothing emotionally. It was an intersting contrast against same speakers driven by Naim gear. For sure they take somewhat of an opposite view.
Halcro did nothing particularly wrong. In fact it was rather spectacular in a hi-fi sense.
As for Halcro's industrial design, I don't care for 'em either as they are too obtrusive and ostentatious looking.
intresting comment!First halcro comment i ve heard that is not from a reviewing magazine.
Maybe marketingwise similar to wilson.
i mean it s always said that they are the best,
but where to listen a maxx or a grandslam?
O.J.
quote:ben r!
Originally posted by ben r:
you know it is interesting about the mgabuck stuff that gets good reviews, rarely does anybody really have a chance to hear them in a store, let alone in their house, so they cant be refuted....I mean 73,000.00 turntables...who has ever heard one in their home...not me...I have never even seen one....but it is a big testament to Naim when people on this forum actually have their upper end gear and can report from actual day to day experiences...
wise comment and: my most expensive turntable
costed 6500 euro without tonearm but when i
sold it, out of the reason that i found out it
sounded not as good as expected and went for
a regap3 i was not longer accepted in the
ultrasuperhifiscene and so no chance to
get an expensive speaker demoed at my home
and therefore i stay with kans. 
O.J.
quote:
Originally posted by o.j.:.(i tried
a lot to find a "faster" poweramp,but it did not become better with krel,levinson,and treshold poweramps.
o.j.
me neither. ( at least the ones I can afford anyways )
I've ended up with SET amps to get a better timing and dynamics. Ironic isn't it?
quote:Hy Kuma!thought long about your set amps,found jota monoblocks on their hompage and
Originally posted by kuma:quote:
Originally posted by o.j.:.(i tried
a lot to find a "faster" poweramp,but it did not become better with krel,levinson,and treshold poweramps.
o.j.
me neither. ( at least the ones I can afford anyways )
I've ended up with SET amps to get a better timing and dynamics. Ironic isn't it?
now i understand set. single ended triode.Maybe
i am alittle bit slow (like rowland)
but now i understand what you are talking about.Those jotas seem to be also very expensive.But
i think you also tried a lot,and you have also
speakers that i know only by name.Would like to hear your system,but do not fear
I live far away from you.
O.J.
quote:Hy Geoff!In 1997 i heared first
Originally posted by Geoff P:
OK let me throw out another question.
The hifi press are talking about Digital amplifiers being the future. It sounds horrifying.
Basically unless I misunderstand you take the compression that is already there in the signal coming off the CD and process it through more digital trickery using high frequency switching of power transistors to represnts the "Bits"in the waveform of the audio signal.
It all sounds terribly clinical and propagates all that is bad about the digital process even further down the sound chain.
Or am I wrong? Has anybody heard digtal amps and if so are they horrible things?
regards
GEOFF
tact millenium digital amp.It is not easy to
understand how it works technical but
you can read alot in the net,and it is indeed
a thoroughly new method of reproducing music
with pulsewidthmodulation(i think this was the term)I mean it is far away from what we know
as the analog/digital/analog converting process.
About the sound:very perfect,very non spectacular,clinical and imo a little,little
bit bright.(heared it with nautilus 805).
The first nightmare was that tact will not have
the speeker/amplifier feedback problem of
conventional amps.Ok sound was not distorted
but at higher levels it became thinner.
In the same year or one year later tact builded
a second,strongeramplifier,(which i never heared).
I think there is a similar system from wadia
on the market.(at ahorrible never affordable price)
Sharp made also attempts in this direction.
If the tact would have been that good as it was
hyped by the reviewers press,(it also was not that superexpensive)there must be a lot of
content users of this stuff around.I personally
do not know anybody who has a tact.
think also about the fact that tact is in connect with Nad and therefore i believe they
have better marketing possibilities than a "new
on the market"rocket scientist,as there are
many in hifi business.
So what do you think?
O.J.
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Has anybody heard digtal amps and if so are they horrible things?
I've tried Bel Canto eVo and Tact Millennium. ( two different 'digital' amps depending on how you qualify )
Not horrible. In fact both units are excellent at midrange transprency and top end resolution. Inoffensive and bland are my impression of digital amps thus far.
Bel Canto lagged in timing slightly but Tact amp did all right compared to my Jota mono driving Wilson WATT 6. However, I think both pieces are missing communication skills.
They are not the sort of the amps that reach out and grab you. All kid gloves and no sledge hammer. ( you know what I mean.
)I've also heard a recent Ice Power based Rowland amps and whilst they were captivating, they still have their house sound in tact. i.e. all stage'n'tone and no sense of fun.
I am sure digital amps will catch up sooner or later but I think they still have a way to go.
quote:We have all together a lot of listening
Originally posted by kuma:quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Has anybody heard digtal amps and if so are they horrible things?
I've tried Bel Canto eVo and Tact Millennium. ( two different 'digital' amps depending on how you qualify )
Not horrible. In fact both units are excellent at midrange transprency and top end resolution. Inoffensive and bland are my impression of digital amps thus far.
Bel Canto lagged in timing slightly but Tact amp did all right compared to my Jota mono driving Wilson WATT 6. However, I think both pieces are missing communication skills.
They are not the sort of the amps that reach out and grab you. All kid gloves and no sledge hammer. ( you know what I mean.
I've also heard a recent Ice Power based Rowland amps and whilst they were captivating, they still have their house sound in tact. i.e. all stage'n'tone and no sense of fun.
I am sure digital amps will catch up sooner or later but I think they still have a way to go.
experience,for me the amps we are talking about
are all in the upperclass (or formula 1).
We are of course intrested in new (hopefully soundwise revolutionary )technical designs like
digital amps or digital room acoustic controlling circuits.
My opinion as said often:FM acoustics amps are soundwise the only benchmark of music reproduction. knowing nothing that comes close to this .but imo linn klimax amps were the biggest step of the "normal quality amp world"
in the direction of FM sound quality.
Hoping Ivor will not kill me for this post,but
i can only judge with my ears.
the slogan of linn:the only sound
the slogan of fm:Why not the best?
looks af if they both know that they are on top.
O.J.quote:Hy Geoff! i am writing from Vienna.No secret but i admit not to see in my
Originally posted by Geoff P:
O.J.& Kuma
You are both enigmas to me. Just names on the forum. I am not even sure where you are writing from but both of you are obviously long time investigators of high end audio.
I have really only scratched the surface myself so it is difficult to comment on your e-mails but it has been an enjoyable "conversation".
The digital amp concept seems to be begining to figure as you would expect as the natural extension of Digtal surrond sources such as DVD-A and SACD. Sony's latest pairing is the SCDXA9000ES SACD player and TA- Digital surround amp so I guess there will be more and more digital amps at various quality levels coming out of the woodwork soon.
GEOFF
public profile.
Here the reasons why digital amps will not
come so soon:
the (moneywise) big players in consumerelectronics will not risk to put a lot
of money(in technical projects) to satisfy only a handful ofmusic or hifi freaks.)pioneer went the
plasma way (successful)T u A has its place between design and highend(imo a german B&o
and marklevinson mixture)they try now stereowise
to go back to roots with a new turntable.(clever marketing concept this table as they
try to lead together good technical ideas of
other manufacturers ,and put it very userfriendly and not hifisophisticated for their customers together.)Sony and others
have got the homecinema and portable and computertrain.
real hifi manufacturers With good reputation
on their products have often not the money and the
knowhow to get technical and marketingwise in
this market.(maybe linn has and does, but also
for the biggest name in british hifi it wil be a
big economic risk to go this way.
and do not forget:the battlefield of
music industry and electronic industry was never as cofuse than today.they are not even
able to bring a common better sounding product
after their 21 year old compact disc(for their all marketing success),and most
of them are even not able to remember in their
wrecked brains that they made years ago together a redbook contract for the exact compactdisc definition.
Imo we will wait a long time for an digital
amp with the two most important things
you get with naim:good sound a n d affordable price.
O.J.
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
You are both enigmas to me.
so I guess there will be more and more digital amps at various quality levels coming out of the woodwork soon.
Ha Geoff. I had to look up the word 'enigma' in a dictionary.
I reside in the US but am originally from Japan. ( pardon me for my 'Engrish' )
Interesting tid bits on digital amps:
few years back I've asked Dan D'agostino ( Krell CEO ) what he thought of digital amplifiers.
He quiped 'they have no dynamics and balls'.
I am curious how Naim feels about the technology.
It sure makes sense to reach wider audience but, I'd think that analogue amps will still stay around for a while.