Leica in the clag

Oh dear!

Derek

I would have thought the news was inevitable.

It makes no financial sense to make such a high quality camera in this day and age.

A camera such as the M7 and one 35mm lense is going to cost around £2.5k which is bound to have limited appeal. Each part is hand made which results in a superb camera but at such a high price.

No customers = no survival, simple as that.

Possibly they may have tp drop 35mm and go into digital but their main customer base is 35mm, so their future looks risky.

Regards

Mick

I had a Leica coffee grinder once !°I had a Leica coffee grinder once !°

I agree that it's very sad, but it is surely the way the world is going.

I'm a keen photographer (owning two Nikon F3P cameras with motor-drives and seven primary lenses picked up over the last 20 years). Recently, I was on the verge of persuading myself to go for an M7, to use when not using my motor-driven F3s, but it was going to cost some £2,000 to get the camera, before I could start to think about lenses. So I bought a lovely F3T off eBay for around £350. It's actually a better camera than the Leica, in my view, and also hand-made, and it will cost about £150 to be cleaned and brought up to spec in a specialist camera workshop. So I can't feel, much as I'd like to support Leica, that I've made a wrong decision.

G

It would be a real shame to see the end of the traditional 35mm film camera.

I have always longed for a Leica but had to settle for a Contax G2.

The G2 is excellent in looks, feel and quality but Leica definitely rules in all those departments.

I have a simple point and shoot digital camera but somehow it's just not the same. Even the digital SLR's don't appeal. Perhaps I'm too old fashioned.

Regards...George.

To have a Leica was, as far as I was concerned, an unreachable dream - the nearest I got to it was a Leitz Pradovit slide projector and two pair of Leitz binoculars.

Leicas first entered my life at school where two of the staff each had one (or more) - one was a real fine grain slow speed film guy (he also had one of the Leitz autofocussing enlargers - the other had a reflex housing for his and I remember him using it to get in real close to photograph a pair of frogs copulating.

I would not be surprised that if Leitz do go under then the name will be bought by a Chinese company and the product will be made in China and marketed in the rest of the world - rather like the great names of the hifi past - Leak, Wharfedale and Quad.

I wonder if their office products eg hole punchers etc are closely linked to the optical business?

I have mixed views about Leica. I grew up looking at pictures of them.... dreaming about them .....wanting them.....then........ once I'd examined one and I had the money and more importantly career to purchase one.... I didn't want one.

For the purpose for which they are designed, they don't do a good job.

For the perfectionist, they are not perfect in manufacture. Some of their lenses are positively awful.

Why should I buy one?

The camera side of their business died mid November 1996 when Nikon F5 came out.

Their shares have been sold off since Jan'01 and that was when you should have sold off all your collector's gear.

Feel sorry about their binocular dept though.

Plenty of views there to be quoted. I look forward to endless and pointless arguments. Except with Derek, cos he's nice.

Count'd

If Leica go under or say gets made under licience in China, the value of existing Leica cameras will soar.

Possibly you should buy some as a tax deductable expense.

Regards

Mick

Actually you're right Mick.

I didn't want to argue with you either, cos you're nice aswell.

P.S. Can you be nice to Fritz, he's harmless.

I suppose that you have to think of the demographics. No one under the age of, say, 35yo will buy a Leica. And I don't suppose that too many people over, say, 65yo could afford one.

So, there in the middle, you have a bunch of 35 to 65 yo's, who'd probably be happier buying DVDs and cheap digital cameras.

Rush out and buy yourself a Nikon F3 before the market comes to its senses!

G

I would like a Leica for the wrong reason - just to have it as a work of art -to go with the miscellaneous collection of rollfilm folding cameras, 8mm film cameras and projectors that are squirrelled away somewhere in the house. - Another piece of photo engineering I would like would be a Paillard Bolex H16 cine camera - the one with the three lens on a turret.

I saw some students using one at the U of A Tucson in October ad went up to them to get a closer look - they were more amazed that I knew what it was rather than them having to tell me what it was - it was the earlier version that only held the smaller spools

I regret giving away my 1926 Box Brownie camera that originally belonged to my Mother -

I can always go to the Museum in Bradford to visit my past dreams and toys

Appologies for the memory lane visit

Leica Camera is only one head of the beast - there's also Leica Geosystems and Leica Microsystems. I know their Geosystems business posted sales growth in 2004; the company I work for uses Leica microscopes extensively, as do many other research institutions, so I'd be surprised if the Microsystems business is in bad shape. Not sure how big a chunk their camera biz accounted for, but hopefully they'll remain solvent overall.

I agree that it's very sad, in that Leica always had a certain 'mystique' in the camera collectors world.

That said, with modern computer design, and manufacture, I have no doubt that 'hand made' doesn't really confer any quality advantage any more, but simply vastly increases manufacturing cost.

Unfortunately times and markets change, as do production methods, and Leica it would appear, was unable to respond to those changes.

The M7 was/is a real 'niche' camera, but the R series were well outclassed by the likes of the top Nikons IMHO on performance/techinical and VFM issues, and ultimately quality as well.

Still I wish them well.

On a related note, I'm glad to see Naim producing quality/VFM products with the 5 series range, and hopefully moving more into multi-channel, as that is undoubtedly the way the market is going in the HiFi arena as well, and I would hate to see Naim become irrelevant except to a minority of 2 channel die-hards.

Or to see Naim, owned and made in China.

Ouch..

Cheers

John... :-)

Leica, just like that other superb hand made Swiss camera from the 70's "Alpha" are unfortunately going the way of all dinosaurs their failing was to continue to appeal to a very limited market,in a age of consumerism when tomorrows products are history yesterday. "Most" young people seem to be content with images obtained with either their mobile phones or throw away cameras.We now live in a throw away society with digital images only lasting for moments in time, the days of lasting Chemical obtained images imo is sadly over.To mis quote a Roger Waters lyric, "Another brick out of the wall"
oldie.

Can't comment on their SLR range, but the M series are great and I have never had a duff lens. The sharpness from my 35 mm and 50 mm lenses is wondrous and the whisper quiet shutter and discrete size make the M great for street photography. The absence of a mirror means that you can go much further with available light without a tripod than with an SLR.

It is a shame, but it is a niche product that can not compete with the practicality and ease of use offered by the digital medium. Without a low-end product to support the higher-end the result was somewhat inevitable.

It's a shame because the M series is a lovely product.

I became a Leica 'fan' of sorts back in the late '70's, when a very good friend of mine started to win so many photo contests that we used to run for the local camera club.
They were, to me, an unattainable quest, I could never justify their cost, especially with the sheer quality on Contax lenses at the time.
My limit was a Canon A1, which at that time was equivalent to about three weeks wages!
They are still objects of desire to me though, through quality if nothing else.

I can guarantee one type on lens that no-one in the uk will miss though. I think you will find Mr Gatsonoid uses Leica lenses for all his flash photography

Update: I've been informed by a colleague (who does imaging microscopy) that Leica are probably a distant fourth in the Microsystems market, well behind Zeiss, Nikon, and Olympus. Things may be dire indeed.

Following the ad hoc announcement of Leica Camera AG, Solms, of February 17, 2005, stating that the Company expects a loss of half of its registered share capital in March 2005, the banks have partially terminated their credit lines. The remaining lines still cover the current liquidity requirements. The Company’s Board of Management has entered into negotiations with the banks on a solution that will carry the Company until the time of its Extraordinary General Meeting on May 31, 2005, at which capital measures are to be proposed to the shareholders.

To quote from the website

And this:

Sources at Kyocera have confirmed that the company is to cease production of film and digital cameras, putting a huge question mark over the future of one of the oldest brands in photography, Contax. Contax cameras have been produced since the early 1930's, when the brand was launched by German optical legend Zeiss Ikon. Contax joined forces with Japanese manufacturer Yashica in the 1960's, becoming part of electronics giant Kyocera in the mid-1990's.


Kyocera has had some success in the digital camera market with models bearing Yashica, Kyocera and Contax branding, though the company's first foray into the digital SLR market (the Contax N Digital) was widely regarded as an expensive failure. There is some confusion over the future of the Contax brand, or the widely anticipated digital rangefinder (G digital) and Mark II 645 cameras. When we spoke to a Kyocera UK representative at the UK's Focus on Imaging exhibition this week, it was made clear that there may well be a future for Contax under another owner, with one rumor mentioning Sony as a potential buyer (the company already uses Carl Zeiss branded lenses on some of its digital compacts).


Kyocera has already stopped production of film and digital cameras, and the various international operations are being prepared for closure. The reasons given were purely market-related (in other words not because of financial difficulties), with Kyocera now concentrating on its mobile phone and semiconductor business.

Kyocera Corporation, parent and global headquarters of the Kyocera Group, was founded in 1959 as a producer of advanced ceramics. By combining these engineered materials with metals and plastics, and integrating them with other technologies, Kyocera has become a leading supplier of telecommunications equipment, cameras, laser printers, copiers, solar energy systems, semiconductor packages and electronic components. During the year ended March 31, 2004, the company’s net sales totaled $10.969 Billion with net income of $654.673 Million. Kyocera Corporation trades on the NYSE, Tokyo, and Osaka stock exchanges under the symbol “KYO”.

From the Weekend FT "How to spend it" colour mag a few lines about the Panasonic Lumix DMC LC1B and how it a rather close copy of the Leica Digilux2 and retails for about ukp750 as against the Leica price of ukp1500. It would seem that main change is that the Panasonic livery differs slightly from that of the Leica, the internals are the same but is the Leica name worth and extra ukp750? It looks like Leica can no longer expect to extract a large premium from the market and the users are now voting with their credit cards for other goods that do not attract this price premium.

Roy just been reading it myself, I think there are two angles to this:
Premium = Better value quality etc (Naim?)
or
BIG Premium = marketing, badge, image, etc (BMW Leica ?)

I was interested in a Leica a few months back and I’m afraid i think they are in the latter category above. Aren’t they owned or partially owned by a fashion company anyway, is it Hermes?

Roy

I attended a 2 day course a couple of years ago at Leicas HQ in Milton Keynes. The course was on how to get the best from your M6.

The Sales Director was there and confirmed that the new Digilux is made by Panasonic and also that Panasonic will be selling their own branded version for half the Leica price.

The thought was that the Leica name plus an external makeover would attract the faithful.

I told him he was mad. Even by his own admission, the Digilux has a limited lifespan (estimated 8 years) and the Leica faithful buy goods that last longer than that.

My own view is that leica are dead in the water as far as camera manufacture is concerned.

They have other businesses and may be able to manufacture top end lenses for other companys but the days of buying a Leica camera are numbered in my opinion.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Roy T:
From the Weekend FT "How to spend it" colour mag a few lines about the Panasonic Lumix DMC LC1B and how it a rather close copy of the Leica Digilux2 and retails for about ukp750 as against the Leica price of ukp1500. It would seem that main change is that the Panasonic livery differs slightly from that of the Leica, the internals are the same but is the Leica name worth and extra ukp750? It looks like Leica can no longer expect to extract a large premium from the market and the users are now voting with their credit cards for other goods that do not attract this price premium.

I wanted to buy the Panasonic but found it almost completely unavailable in the UK.

At the time it was being advertised in the US at $435 (UK price £435 - if you could find it). It now seems to be $399.

The problem with digital photgraphy (like computers) is that, by the time you have done the research - there is another prime candidate with even more pixels and a lower price.

I bought a LARGE Fuji (S602zoom) which had all the bits (use of standard batteries, relatively simple controls, USB connection, viewfinder, flexible memory and "enough" pixels) I had set as my standard.
It maintains the annoying delay between button push and action, I still don't know, or care, how many real pixels it has but it does most of what I wanted.

Interesting thread. I'm a longtime Leica M user so I've been following this on the various Leica fora since the news broke. But this conversation goes back a long way to the "is film/Leica dead" debate.
I find it interesting that the main arguement that film is dead (vs. digital) is that:
1) Althought the quality of digital is not yet up to film, digital is a much easier and more convenient technology to use.
2) The average consumer doesn't care about or notice the difference in quality
3) Really high quality equipment is so expensive that soon no one will buy enough for the manufacturers to stay in business.
Sound familiar?
The most common example folks use is the demise of vinyl when CDs came out. Most of the posters seem genuinely unaware that a new vinyl release can be purchased, much less a high end turntable.
For my part I'll keep snapping away with my 20 year old camera - which is the age of my LP12 - until I can no longer get film. As for repairs and parts, I figure that as long as the demand is there, someone will fill it. As they do for '57 Chevys or BMW 2002s.
Also, I think Leica Camera was spun off from the parent company Leitz (who still make precision optical and measurement equipment). Does anyone know if that's correct?

Perhaps film will die - but photography will continue (as a subset of "snaps").