Kans and subwoofers

Hi Mathew

You may well have seen my thread about using a Strata 5 with SBL's. I don't perceive that the rhythm is slugged. I hear only positive things happening to the music.

However; set up is critical and subtlety is the key-word. The instructions are comprehensive to achieve the integration needed for Hi-Fi applications.

Essentially; the sub should not be obvious outside its frequency remit; but the difference should be obvious when it's turned off.

You will retain that Kan magic, whilst hearing the hitherto missing octaves and open up the acoustic space.

Don't expect to get it right with the first session at home. If the sub is brand new, you'll probably need to tweak the settings as the drive unit loosens up with use.

Very minor adjustments are possible (and repeatable) with the micro-processor control and display information.

And being able to do it from the hot seat by remote is a genuinely useful feature.

[This message was edited by J.N. on Sat 27 March 2004 at 0:05.]

I ran a matched pair of homebuilt passive bandpass subwoofers 16-120Hz(-3dB) in stereo with Kans for quite a few years. It transformed them.
You should seriously consider a pair of (active) subs as the Kans roll off at 120Hz (-3dB). This is much too high a frequency to avoid locatory information from the sub(s). I put my subs as close to the Kans as possible to avoid this problem.
Run your subs with high level connections (speaker cables) and adjust your sub's top roll off point with a cheap Radioshack SPL meter using suitable test tones. NCH has an excellent downloadable signal generator online. Your browser will find it easily enough so posting a link isn't necessary.
At only 82dB/Watt the Kan won't need powerful subwoofers. But do go for quality. Many subs are merely boom boxes for the cheap end of the AV market. MJA and REL are rather better thought of.
The subs should not intrude. Merely underpin what is going on below the Kans. Think of it as merely an extension to the frequency response. Keep the Kans on their stands.It is tempting to put them on top of the subs. Don't. Enjoy!

Nimby

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

quote:

---

And being able to do it from the hot seat by remote is a genuinely useful feature.

---

The remote is one of the main reasons why i'm interested in the new "ST" rel sub's.

Nimby,

Thank's for the software link. I've just recorded some test sweeps. I think everyone should have a go at this! it's quite interesting, even without a sub hooked up!

Hi Mathew,

I ran my Kans with a REL Q200 for a period.

Now the Q200 is more for AV than music sub, but does have the Neutronik link, direct from the power-amp outputs.

I thought it made definite improvements - as descibed above.

However, in my listening room I was concious of a very low level hum on occasion.

I recently changed my main speakers to Art Skibos, which after six weeks of tweaking now, in my opinion, demolish the Kans in all areas; especially vocals and imaging. I found that when I turned the sub-woofer off the imaging improved and lots of inner detail become easier to hear.

Bottom line - I think room dynamics can have a big influence, and you may find improvements in some areas - and degradations in others.

My REL has been turned off for over a month.


Martin.

Mr Underhill

I can well imagine you finding a better speaker than the Kan on imaging. It was my pet hate about my Mk1s. But I am disappointed to hear that your sub is masking detail. This suggests that you either had it set at too high a cut-off frequency or too high a level, or both. Or the sub was simply distorting and thrusting harmonics into the frequency band of the stereo speakers.

With my SVS 16-46 PCi the low level of distortion seems to allow almost any level on the sub without causing masking of detail. The deep bass simply gets louder. In fact, imagary, image scale, detail and dynamics have all improved as result of this sub's addition to my 753Fs. New instruments are appearing in the mix that were simply inadible before. My wife, the most cynical of listeners for more decades than I care to remember. Has repeatedly spoken of the improvement in clarity with the SVS. Even when she cranks the gain on the sub!

The big sub is simply rolling in at 40Hz below the Missions. The 753Fs are running full range. No locatory information has been noticed using this cut-off point on any material.

The downside is that most would not want to share a room with two 16-46s just to underpin Kans.

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Hi Nime,

Like you I've got Mk Is. I obviously liked them as I've had them for 18 years!

I spent a long time playing with setting and position.

As I stated my REL is a Q series, and thus more for films than music.

I did note the improvements spoken of for subs....but I think that there was a trade off.

That could be because of:

Room dynamics;
Unsubtle sub; or
Poor settings.

However, I do spend a LOT of time trying to get things 'right', so I'm confident that I had correctly set-up the sub.

As always with these things I'd take a hueristic approach and borrow a sub from a dealer for a couple of days.

Mathew, if you do I'd be interested in what you find.

Mr underhill,
I tried a google search on your art skibos speakers but found nothing. Do you know where i could find some info/pics of them?

I also found an old thread where some IBL users had good success with a rel strata 3, so, fingers crossed!

quote:

---

Mathew, if you do I'd be interested in what you find.

---

I will report back, i've just got to decide between the strata and stampede.

Nime,
Are we the only people on this forum who like mission speakers?
I bought a pair for my girlfriend (can't mention the model number for fear of abuse!)I think they sound great for a budget speaker.

Mathew,

The Skibos are manufactured by the Dunlops, of Systemdeck fame.

Their website is at:

http://www.loudspeaker-art.com/

I've posted a couple of reviews on Pink Fish:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3692&highlight=skibo

I then posted:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3797&highlight=bass+bloom

After reading a post here with an entry by Geoff P.

I overcame a reservation I had of the Skibos by tuning the bass port with some straws.

I've spoken to Derek Dunlop on the phone a couple of times. He tells me that a review is probably going to be in HiFi+ - one of there chaps has refered to them in other reviews a couple of times I noticed.

He was especially interested as I use Naim amplification.

The Kans are still great speakers, but I've bought a LOT more vinyl and CDs over the last few weeks.

Martin

quote:

---

Originally posted by mathew farley:

Nime,
Are we the only people on this forum who like mission speakers?
I bought a pair for my girlfriend (can't mention the model number for fear of abuse!)I think they sound great for a budget speaker.

---

mathew,
I find that a well-liked item from just a few years back is often vastly more cost effective than buying new. Which is no doubt how many Naim enthusiasts are able to enjoy the previous higher-end models of the range according to their pocket. I believe it is referred to as "trickle down" in some circles. I have little doubt there are still many happy Mission owners who lurk here.
I certainly don't believe anyone deserves abuse for their taste in speakers. There is no perfect speaker for all tastes at any level. Otherwise there would be only one pair of speakers at each price point and no hifi speaker industry. And NONE of those available would be a Mk1 Kan.

Nime

Mathew,

Just to say that although I think the Skibos are very good I think I should put some caveats around that statement:

1. The RRP of the upper box, which I have, is £800 - I got the ex-dem for £500;
2. They have a lower bass unit that can be added, for another £800;
3. I didn't do extensive dems of available models at the price point.

I spoke to a couple of people who work in a local dealer. They think the Skibo is a very good speaker, with a specially good tweater. However, they would recommend an audition of the Dynaudio boxes. Also one mentioned that if you sdd the lower box, taking you to an outlay of £1,600, they thought there were better options available.

Martin

THE VERDICT!!!!!

I purchased an ATC C1 subwoofer from ebay, i'm not sure if it's set up properly and the results so far are not what i expected.

Timing is very good (surprise!)and i can't hear the joins, so it integrates very well.

Sadly it has'nt turned my Kan's into Brik's, the extra bass is very subtle. The good news (bad news for some people!) is they still sound like Kan's. Certain tracks used to sound a bit odd (R & B, UB40 ect) but now they sound much better.

My advise would be to anyone who's thinking about going down this route, only buy a sub if no other speaker will do, for the cost of Kan's and a subwoofer you could buy a nice pair of speakers that produce a much bigger sound, i've only got a small room and paper thin walls so this combination suits me for now!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by mathew farley:
THE VERDICT!!!!!

I purchased an ATC C1 subwoofer from ebay, i'm not sure if it's set up properly and the results so far are not what i expected.

Timing is very good (surprise!)and i can't hear the joins, so it integrates very well.

Sadly it has'nt turned my Kan's into Brik's, the extra bass is very subtle. The good news (bad news for some people!) is they still sound like Kan's. Certain tracks used to sound a bit odd (R & B, UB40 ect) but now they sound much better.

My advise would be to anyone who's thinking about going down this route, only buy a sub if no other speaker will do, for the cost of Kan's and a subwoofer you could buy a nice pair of speakers that produce a much bigger sound, i've only got a small room and paper thin walls so this combination suits me for now!!

---

Hy there!
Experiences of others:Kans1or2 sound similar to isobariks without woofer.
Kan 1 and 2 need a lot of power to sing (or are best driven active)
Kan1and2 do alot of bass concerning their size,
but it is often not enough(thats wy subwoofers seem to be needed.)
the subwoofer thing is not easy to bring under control.

My experience:kan 3 is alot easier to drive
than 1and2. it is tonal more universal.(means
there is treble a n d enough bass.
Sounds accurrate at any level also with small amps.
Never thought to find a speaker in this size that is that good!
try it and you will forget that you need a subwoofer.
O.J.

yes I run one in my system for many years very succesfully. At that time it consisted of Linn/ittok/asaka, Pioneer cdp, Naim 32.5/Hicap/Nap250, Kans and a Bowers and Wilkins whoofer (I forget it's title.) I ran this for at least 10 years before moving on to Kabers. I sold the combination to a friend and it is still in daily use and sounding really good still. The whoofer was not a house shaking box but a tunable enhacement and to all sence and purpose integrated really well never fighting but always complementing the Kans. Get it right and you will enjoy years of listening but get it wrong and you will soon move on so listen well before you buy for i heard several set ups that were really awful before I settled on the B&W.