The "SUBLIME" setting ---OR am I Barmy!!
Posted by: Geoff P on 17 March 2004
Folks
Have people here experienced the fact that there is a "right" volume for most music, and it is different from CD to CD.
You can raise the volume gently from the bottom stop and suddenly the depth and liveness of the music appears. You go to slightly higher volume and it sounds a little less as though all aspects of the total music are in balance until you back the volume down again to the "sublime" setting.
OK there are qualifiers to this. It only works if there has been a period away from listening (the working day for example). Your ears have not heard the music and so pick up the nuances at a relatively low volume setting.
If you have been giving the music a good thrashing at higher volume trying to go back down to the "sublime" setting does'nt work cause your ears are saturated, so to speak.
Of course you get a different sound from the same music at higher volumes which can be more exciting because of the way the music picks up extra weight with volume, but coming fresh to it and starting out back down at low volume the "sublime"setting is there to be found again
Or am I barmy!!
regards
GEOFF
Have people here experienced the fact that there is a "right" volume for most music, and it is different from CD to CD.
You can raise the volume gently from the bottom stop and suddenly the depth and liveness of the music appears. You go to slightly higher volume and it sounds a little less as though all aspects of the total music are in balance until you back the volume down again to the "sublime" setting.
OK there are qualifiers to this. It only works if there has been a period away from listening (the working day for example). Your ears have not heard the music and so pick up the nuances at a relatively low volume setting.
If you have been giving the music a good thrashing at higher volume trying to go back down to the "sublime" setting does'nt work cause your ears are saturated, so to speak.
Of course you get a different sound from the same music at higher volumes which can be more exciting because of the way the music picks up extra weight with volume, but coming fresh to it and starting out back down at low volume the "sublime"setting is there to be found again
Or am I barmy!!
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 17 March 2004 by Bubblechild
I don't know whether I'm barmy too, and I don't care - but I think you're absolutely right!
Posted on: 17 March 2004 by Naimed-In-NY
I would agree that on some (not all) CDs, there is a volume range that seems to sound best. Of course, there sometimes are big differences in the levels of the CDs themselves, such that one CD may sound much louder (or softer) than another without touching the volume knob.
One of the strange (to me) things that I love about Naim gear is how well things sound at low levels. (They also sound great loud!) Normally, I prefer to listen to the music at higher volumes than the average person. However, at night, when the kids are sleeping, I'm pretty much limited to low volume listening. With different gear, music never was as enjoyable at low levels - it seemed I needed to crank up the volume to enjoy it properly. With my Naim gear (200/202/PSC2), I find myself loving the music regardless of whether the volume is loud or soft. Listening at low volumes with Naim does not detract from the separation of the instruments, or the power of the performance, the way it does with some other brands.
Perhaps this is barmy? I don't know, but it is one of the unexpected pleasures I've noticed since becoming a Naim convert.
MBM
One of the strange (to me) things that I love about Naim gear is how well things sound at low levels. (They also sound great loud!) Normally, I prefer to listen to the music at higher volumes than the average person. However, at night, when the kids are sleeping, I'm pretty much limited to low volume listening. With different gear, music never was as enjoyable at low levels - it seemed I needed to crank up the volume to enjoy it properly. With my Naim gear (200/202/PSC2), I find myself loving the music regardless of whether the volume is loud or soft. Listening at low volumes with Naim does not detract from the separation of the instruments, or the power of the performance, the way it does with some other brands.
Perhaps this is barmy? I don't know, but it is one of the unexpected pleasures I've noticed since becoming a Naim convert.
MBM
Posted on: 17 March 2004 by BigH47
Its the blood in the ears that has a detrimental effect on the sound. About 3Dbs lower than that point is best. 
Howard
Howard
Posted on: 17 March 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Have people here experienced the fact that there is a "right" volume for most music, and it is different from CD to CD...
...Or am I barmy!!
Geoff, I think you're absolutely right. Of course I'm barmy too.
Steve Margolis
defy convention - make music
Posted on: 17 March 2004 by Onthlam
My experience has led me to believe the following...
If you are to put the volume up higher than 9 to 9:30 to get all the dynamics and organics?
You either own a non Naim system and set it up correctly or...own a Naim system and set it up incorrctly per your room..........
Don't get me wrong..Zep sounds great at 10!!!
Regards to all,
Marc
If you are to put the volume up higher than 9 to 9:30 to get all the dynamics and organics?
You either own a non Naim system and set it up correctly or...own a Naim system and set it up incorrctly per your room..........
Don't get me wrong..Zep sounds great at 10!!!
Regards to all,
Marc
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Markus S
quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
Its the blood in the ears that has a detrimental effect on the sound. About 3Dbs lower than that point is best.
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Reto D
How can a system work perfectly at high volume levels when it does not work perfectly at low volumes?
Reto
Reto
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Geoff P
Interesting comments guys.
I had not taken the thought to its conclusion but I think we have consensus that one of the things that NAIM is very good at is portraying the vitality of music at any volume.
That for me is quite some acheivement, and I 'm not sure who else manages to do this.
I have had other makes of amp and always with them had to wait until everybody was out our house (including SWMBO), and the house next door, before I could turn the wick up to get hear this musical vitality. Even then it was usually spoiled by the onset of harshness from strain in both the amp and the speakers.
The other key element needed aswell as your trusty Naim though is a pair of speakers that are'nt lazy!!
I had B&W CM series at one time and their bass just would not wake up until the volume was well and truly turned up.
So a pair of speakers that can get going properly at low volume is also a pre-requisite.
OK so lets add a slightly contreversial element to the dsicussion
I feel that this is where asub-woofer can really add to the musical experience because at low volume levels it fills out the lowest frequency's nicely, where even the most efficient full range speakers are just not moving enough air.
It has to be tastefully set up of course. We are talking about a subtle thing here, and it has to be driven by the high level output from the NAIM amp because the volume must track the main signal volume, but once setup it brings a "lift" to the whole sound which adds to the final "sublime" experience.
Right or Wrong?
regards
Geoff
I had not taken the thought to its conclusion but I think we have consensus that one of the things that NAIM is very good at is portraying the vitality of music at any volume.
That for me is quite some acheivement, and I 'm not sure who else manages to do this.
I have had other makes of amp and always with them had to wait until everybody was out our house (including SWMBO), and the house next door, before I could turn the wick up to get hear this musical vitality. Even then it was usually spoiled by the onset of harshness from strain in both the amp and the speakers.
The other key element needed aswell as your trusty Naim though is a pair of speakers that are'nt lazy!!
I had B&W CM series at one time and their bass just would not wake up until the volume was well and truly turned up.
So a pair of speakers that can get going properly at low volume is also a pre-requisite.
OK so lets add a slightly contreversial element to the dsicussion
I feel that this is where asub-woofer can really add to the musical experience because at low volume levels it fills out the lowest frequency's nicely, where even the most efficient full range speakers are just not moving enough air.
It has to be tastefully set up of course. We are talking about a subtle thing here, and it has to be driven by the high level output from the NAIM amp because the volume must track the main signal volume, but once setup it brings a "lift" to the whole sound which adds to the final "sublime" experience.
Right or Wrong?
regards
Geoff
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Rasher
I find this sweet spot on the volume too, but in my case, it's not a range but a very exact setting. Above this it gets hard and breaks up. Below, and it isn't cooking like it should. I find it's at about 8.30 on my 32.5 pre - which is fairly loud with my 135's.
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by willem
quote:
Originally posted by Reto D:
How can a system work perfectly at high volume levels when it does not work perfectly at low volumes?
Reto
Maybe because the volume potmeter has to 'work harder' to maintain a low level than a higher level? It is effectively out of circuit when it is fully turned up, well, theoretically anyway.
willem
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Onthlam
Andrew: I agree with your comments.I would like to add that at night it seems that the mains is a bit cleaner....
In my room I am about 12 foot from the DBLs. I use the 9 position as a reference per my experience with listening to piano.From this same distance,the 9(position)on the 552 plays as if the piano is in the room. Same volume,dynamics,and texture(organics)...
Marc
Got to watch CNN. I was just told that Bin Laden is surrounded in Pakistan....
In my room I am about 12 foot from the DBLs. I use the 9 position as a reference per my experience with listening to piano.From this same distance,the 9(position)on the 552 plays as if the piano is in the room. Same volume,dynamics,and texture(organics)...
Marc
Got to watch CNN. I was just told that Bin Laden is surrounded in Pakistan....
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by John3
I read somewhere once that the volume control should be regarded as a 'focusing' device and that for any given recording there is only one correct volume level.
Probably agree with this and for most recordings for me it is around 9 (on a 252).
Probably agree with this and for most recordings for me it is around 9 (on a 252).
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by prowla
For me the level changes according to the particular album I'm listening to.
It's also a fact that a bass drum doesn't kick you in the belly unless you've kranked the system up a bit.
Perhaps it's my Kans - they're quite docile at lower volumes but when you push them they come alive. (Bit like a high revving sports car.)
However, I've never had my volume above 10 o'clock (it's the blood in ears thing!).
Paul
It's also a fact that a bass drum doesn't kick you in the belly unless you've kranked the system up a bit.
Perhaps it's my Kans - they're quite docile at lower volumes but when you push them they come alive. (Bit like a high revving sports car.)
However, I've never had my volume above 10 o'clock (it's the blood in ears thing!).
Paul
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Nime
The reason you can't enjoy your Kans at low level prowla is because you don't have a subwoofer. (Or preferably two for stereo) Kans are amazing when the bottom seven or eight octaves are added back into the mix. I used to listen most evenings at restrained volumes on the tuner. Even to techno and world music on the Kans and they were simply magical. No loss of blood required. Get a sub (or two). Kans miss so much from 120Hz down that you really need two subs to maintain stereo imagary.
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Geoff P
Andrew wrote
Actually for me the "sublime" setting is not loud to start with. I just took a range reading with my trusty dB meter which reports a range of 76 -81dB for the current CD. This is around the 8.00 - 8.30 location on my 282. This seems to be the typical setting people are agreeing on. I can go quite a lot louder up to 9.00 and occasionally beyond and there is no "pain", in fact this is where things end up later on in the evening, with no signs of distress in the system. What seems to happen during an extend listening session is the volume gets "inched" up in stages as each new CD is played because I can't resist the desire to drive the music a bit harder. I assume the ears are slow de-sensitising as the evening draws on and the "sublime" setting shifts upwards in compensation.
GEOFF
.
quote:
So why should there be a volume setting that is too loud? Well, assuming you are not actually experiencing physical pain then the reason in hi-fi terms is (I would guess) that your speakers are requiring too much current from your amps and there are deficiencies in the amp/power supply being shown up in the form of subtle distortions. Also when you turn the overall sound levels up you will experience some of the room resonances more powerfully.
Actually for me the "sublime" setting is not loud to start with. I just took a range reading with my trusty dB meter which reports a range of 76 -81dB for the current CD. This is around the 8.00 - 8.30 location on my 282. This seems to be the typical setting people are agreeing on. I can go quite a lot louder up to 9.00 and occasionally beyond and there is no "pain", in fact this is where things end up later on in the evening, with no signs of distress in the system. What seems to happen during an extend listening session is the volume gets "inched" up in stages as each new CD is played because I can't resist the desire to drive the music a bit harder. I assume the ears are slow de-sensitising as the evening draws on and the "sublime" setting shifts upwards in compensation.
GEOFF
.
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by Onthlam
Geoff P.,
All things being equal? I have found that my tendency to inch up the volume tiny amounts has been in symphony with the CDS3 warming up during each use.
First 15 minutes it is sounding good but tight and with less bass. Next 15 the player starts to unfold. More organics,dynamics and larger soundstage. Next 15, you hear it trying to burst out of its shell...Somewhere within this period between 30 minutes and 1 hour the player just unleashes a no holds barred musical experience... As this predictable transformation takes place, I find my self turning it up in small increments..
Marc
All things being equal? I have found that my tendency to inch up the volume tiny amounts has been in symphony with the CDS3 warming up during each use.
First 15 minutes it is sounding good but tight and with less bass. Next 15 the player starts to unfold. More organics,dynamics and larger soundstage. Next 15, you hear it trying to burst out of its shell...Somewhere within this period between 30 minutes and 1 hour the player just unleashes a no holds barred musical experience... As this predictable transformation takes place, I find my self turning it up in small increments..
Marc
Posted on: 18 March 2004 by PJT
72/250 the LP12 volume starts at 12 o'clock and climbs...
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by Geoff P
Marc
I like your explanation.It fits.
Geoff
I like your explanation.It fits.
Geoff
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by Nime
I believe that the ears are quickly desensitised at levels around 90dB and higher. That would explain the need for ever increasing volume as a "listening session" progresses.
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by prowla
Hi, Nime
My Kans do sound quite full and play deep bass. My point about the kick drum is that it is loud in real life, and the thump in the guts is physical and requires a bit of power there.
Nonetheless I may try out a sub one day :-)
Paul
My Kans do sound quite full and play deep bass. My point about the kick drum is that it is loud in real life, and the thump in the guts is physical and requires a bit of power there.
Nonetheless I may try out a sub one day :-)
Paul
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by Laurie Saunders
In my experience, the better the system is performing, the wider the volume "window" that one can enjoy. Conversely, systems that only sound right at a very narrow range of volumes, would benefit from better setup
At whisper quiet levels (below 7 `oclock) I can still hear all the dtail, separation etc. The sound still hangs together up to about 11 0`clock, when my ears start to bottom out
In fact, in the 2middle" range, once my ears have adjusted to the new volume level, the difference in "presentation" is very small
Laurie S
At whisper quiet levels (below 7 `oclock) I can still hear all the dtail, separation etc. The sound still hangs together up to about 11 0`clock, when my ears start to bottom out
In fact, in the 2middle" range, once my ears have adjusted to the new volume level, the difference in "presentation" is very small
Laurie S
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by Onthlam
Andrew,
Funny you should mention this...
98% of the time I am listening(CDS3)when I am the only game in town..Kids are doing homework or something else the other side of the house..
Dualing hi fi occurs when our 13 year old puts her stereo on and our 11 year old puts her boom box on all at the same time..My listening room is next to their bedrooms..Ha Ha to bad for them...Marlee(13) tries to beat me out by putting hers on as loud as she can take it.
I always win by doing the following. As soon as she puts on a cd that she has copied from my booty, I put on the same cd a second or two off the mark from hers and CRANK IT UP!!!
It throws her off big time. She can hear my kit as loud as hers with her door closed. The music coming from outside her room is like an echo from the grand canyon...Very funny...
She always gives up....
Marlee, can you please turn it down? It gets louder..Then the games begin....To bad the DBLs are to big to turn towards her wall!..
Marc
Funny you should mention this...
98% of the time I am listening(CDS3)when I am the only game in town..Kids are doing homework or something else the other side of the house..
Dualing hi fi occurs when our 13 year old puts her stereo on and our 11 year old puts her boom box on all at the same time..My listening room is next to their bedrooms..Ha Ha to bad for them...Marlee(13) tries to beat me out by putting hers on as loud as she can take it.
I always win by doing the following. As soon as she puts on a cd that she has copied from my booty, I put on the same cd a second or two off the mark from hers and CRANK IT UP!!!
It throws her off big time. She can hear my kit as loud as hers with her door closed. The music coming from outside her room is like an echo from the grand canyon...Very funny...
She always gives up....
Marlee, can you please turn it down? It gets louder..Then the games begin....To bad the DBLs are to big to turn towards her wall!..
Marc
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by Geoff P
Your just using it as an excuse to turn the volume up even further.
They will of course get their own back one day. When they start buying there own "music" or "not music but something else" and your battles will involve you in having to listen to excrutiating stuff at high volume or give in.
Mine are 32 & 30. You have yet to experience the delights associated with the "its no good talking to you, you would'nt undersatand" followed by the retreat to the sanctunm of the "room" where some awfull stuff starts to vibrate the house.
GEOFF
They will of course get their own back one day. When they start buying there own "music" or "not music but something else" and your battles will involve you in having to listen to excrutiating stuff at high volume or give in.
Mine are 32 & 30. You have yet to experience the delights associated with the "its no good talking to you, you would'nt undersatand" followed by the retreat to the sanctunm of the "room" where some awfull stuff starts to vibrate the house.
GEOFF
Posted on: 19 March 2004 by Onthlam
Geoff P,
I have to tell you how happy I am about their interest in music.I really do not care if they turn it up loud or (with in reason) listen to something that I can not stand...Both of the kids play in the band and admire those who have mastered the ability to make good music...
THe oldest is getting close to beating me at Naim that tune...You know, press the button on the car radio and the first one to answer correctly wins....She is getting pretty good..
A comment on the Linn thing. True.. I had to turn it up sometimes to the 2 or 3 position to get a good volume....
Well folks its 7:15 in wonderful California. Time to turn on some tunes.....
Marc
I have to tell you how happy I am about their interest in music.I really do not care if they turn it up loud or (with in reason) listen to something that I can not stand...Both of the kids play in the band and admire those who have mastered the ability to make good music...
THe oldest is getting close to beating me at Naim that tune...You know, press the button on the car radio and the first one to answer correctly wins....She is getting pretty good..
A comment on the Linn thing. True.. I had to turn it up sometimes to the 2 or 3 position to get a good volume....
Well folks its 7:15 in wonderful California. Time to turn on some tunes.....
Marc