Re: AV2/DVD5/250(2)/TOTEMS
Posted by: cchua1 on 20 January 2005
After seeking advice on the forum in Nov/Dec 04, I invested heavily in a home theater system featuring Naim electronics (AV2/DVD5/NAP250MkIIx3), Totem loudspeakers (Mani-2 Sig Front, Model 1 Sig Center, Model 1 Rear) & REL subwoofer (Storm III). With help from the M'sian Naim dealer, my HT system was set-up about two weeks ago and has progressively gotten better. Now, I am getting a great picture (Pioneer PCP 50inch Plasma) and truly superb sound. Clean, crisp, holographic imaging, just the right amount of midrange warmth/texture & PRAT. Properly executed DTS/Prologic 5.1 sounded really good. On movies with great soundtracks (The Red Violin) and concerts (Santana's Supernational), the sound was simply exhilarating.
Finally, although Naim doesn't encourage the use of line conditioners and non-Naim audiophile powercords, plugging the AV2 and DVD5 into my Shunyata Hydra and using Shunyata power cables (Viper/Mojave) improved the sound significantly w/o deleterious effect on dynamics. I relied on Naim powercords for the NAP250 Mk2s which are superb and had no problems driving my Mani-2 Signatures & other speakers. Using a 250Mk2 to drive rear speakers or even the biamped center channel Model 1 Sig is probably an overkill but with the sound that I'm getting, there is no consumer dissonance at all.
My thanks to Geoff P and others who offered valuable advice on the forum. Also, to Dave from Absolute Sound Sdn Bhd who set-up my system.
Finally, although Naim doesn't encourage the use of line conditioners and non-Naim audiophile powercords, plugging the AV2 and DVD5 into my Shunyata Hydra and using Shunyata power cables (Viper/Mojave) improved the sound significantly w/o deleterious effect on dynamics. I relied on Naim powercords for the NAP250 Mk2s which are superb and had no problems driving my Mani-2 Signatures & other speakers. Using a 250Mk2 to drive rear speakers or even the biamped center channel Model 1 Sig is probably an overkill but with the sound that I'm getting, there is no consumer dissonance at all.
My thanks to Geoff P and others who offered valuable advice on the forum. Also, to Dave from Absolute Sound Sdn Bhd who set-up my system.
Posted on: 20 January 2005 by Geoff P
Congrats
Yours is a wow of a system as described. I am suitably jealous.
Interesting what you say about the Shunyata products. HiFi +'s RG raved about them. They are basically bloody expensive so I have never had the opportunity to hear what they are claimed to do myself.
What do you think they are doing to the sound? can you give a bit more info on the benefits over the std cords?
Anyway happy listening & watching
regards
GEOFF
Yours is a wow of a system as described. I am suitably jealous.
Interesting what you say about the Shunyata products. HiFi +'s RG raved about them. They are basically bloody expensive so I have never had the opportunity to hear what they are claimed to do myself.
What do you think they are doing to the sound? can you give a bit more info on the benefits over the std cords?
Anyway happy listening & watching
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 21 January 2005 by cchua1
Geoff
In my non-Naim music system, I have used previous AC noise reducing components (Powerwedge & Chang Lightspeed) but Shunyata's Hydra reduced the noise-level much further so much so that I began to hear much more detail, the system sounded much quieter, vocals beacame more nuanced, there was more texture and subtlety and I could feel the ambience present in certain recordings. It was an amazing experience for me. The accompanying Shunyata powercords (Pythons & Vipers) played their part. My non-Naim music system is now powered by Shunyata products exclusively. Because of my positive experience, I experimented wih my Naim Home Theater system using a spare Hydra,a Mojave and a Viper powercable on the DVD5 & AV2 respectively. The result was similar - a reduction in the noise floor, quietness which allowed room ambience to be felt and most gratifyingly when I pushed the volume up, the sound became big & impactful while remaining v. clean and delineated. In short, the kind of home theater sound that I craved and wanted.
I am aware that the main argument against power conditioning devices is that they stifle dynamics and I know that this can definately happen. The Shunyata devices are passive - this is their explanation why they can reduce AC noise w/o suppressing dynamics. But when used in series with another line conditioner, the results were negative - the sound became thicker and much slower.
I am aware that Shunyata products are expensive.
The Shunyata products that I've been using have been superseeded by newer models which less expensive but I do not have experience with these new models.
BTW, back to my original post, the DVD5 and AV2 are two great pieces of HT gear that deserves more press. But I am grateful for your personal advice on the NAP 250Mk2 and Totem Mani-2 Signature. They sound really great together and I believe will continue to improve because both are still getting runned in.
Chris
In my non-Naim music system, I have used previous AC noise reducing components (Powerwedge & Chang Lightspeed) but Shunyata's Hydra reduced the noise-level much further so much so that I began to hear much more detail, the system sounded much quieter, vocals beacame more nuanced, there was more texture and subtlety and I could feel the ambience present in certain recordings. It was an amazing experience for me. The accompanying Shunyata powercords (Pythons & Vipers) played their part. My non-Naim music system is now powered by Shunyata products exclusively. Because of my positive experience, I experimented wih my Naim Home Theater system using a spare Hydra,a Mojave and a Viper powercable on the DVD5 & AV2 respectively. The result was similar - a reduction in the noise floor, quietness which allowed room ambience to be felt and most gratifyingly when I pushed the volume up, the sound became big & impactful while remaining v. clean and delineated. In short, the kind of home theater sound that I craved and wanted.
I am aware that the main argument against power conditioning devices is that they stifle dynamics and I know that this can definately happen. The Shunyata devices are passive - this is their explanation why they can reduce AC noise w/o suppressing dynamics. But when used in series with another line conditioner, the results were negative - the sound became thicker and much slower.
I am aware that Shunyata products are expensive.
The Shunyata products that I've been using have been superseeded by newer models which less expensive but I do not have experience with these new models.
BTW, back to my original post, the DVD5 and AV2 are two great pieces of HT gear that deserves more press. But I am grateful for your personal advice on the NAP 250Mk2 and Totem Mani-2 Signature. They sound really great together and I believe will continue to improve because both are still getting runned in.
Chris
Posted on: 22 January 2005 by Geoff P
Chris
Thanks for the reply. Is the domestic electricity in Kuala Lumpar pretty crap? Certainly going from place to place the quality of supply can vary enormously. I think we may be a bit better off as far as that is concerned over here in europe. I certainly have a deep black bacKground to my system which suggests a better condition and I do have a Hydra (home made) which did make a difference.
I agree with your comment about the 250.2 and the Mani-2's. They will both take a while to really come on song, especial the speakers. I believe mine were still changing a bit even after 6 months!
regards
GEOFF
Thanks for the reply. Is the domestic electricity in Kuala Lumpar pretty crap? Certainly going from place to place the quality of supply can vary enormously. I think we may be a bit better off as far as that is concerned over here in europe. I certainly have a deep black bacKground to my system which suggests a better condition and I do have a Hydra (home made) which did make a difference.
I agree with your comment about the 250.2 and the Mani-2's. They will both take a while to really come on song, especial the speakers. I believe mine were still changing a bit even after 6 months!
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 22 January 2005 by cchua1
Geoff
I'm a S'porean residing in M'sia. So, it wouldn't be polite to make any disparaging comments about the electricity that I'm getting!
I don't think there's a major problem with the electrical power in S'pore/M'sia although it's possible that you get cleaner power in Holland.
Irrespective of the stability/cleaniless of AC power, I strongly suspect that AC noise suppression products do significantly improve the sound system if properly done.
In regards to the NAP 250Mk2 and Mani-2 Signatures, if the sound continues to improve, I'd be mightily pleased. The 250Mk2 has clocked <30 hours but the Mani-2 Signature has clocked >150 hours.
One thing about the Naims - they definately sounded better when left "on" continuously compared to switching them "off"/"on". I am a bit concerned about thunderstorms "frying" my entire system. The Naim manuals were not too helpful in this respect.
Chris
I'm a S'porean residing in M'sia. So, it wouldn't be polite to make any disparaging comments about the electricity that I'm getting!
I don't think there's a major problem with the electrical power in S'pore/M'sia although it's possible that you get cleaner power in Holland.
Irrespective of the stability/cleaniless of AC power, I strongly suspect that AC noise suppression products do significantly improve the sound system if properly done.
In regards to the NAP 250Mk2 and Mani-2 Signatures, if the sound continues to improve, I'd be mightily pleased. The 250Mk2 has clocked <30 hours but the Mani-2 Signature has clocked >150 hours.
One thing about the Naims - they definately sounded better when left "on" continuously compared to switching them "off"/"on". I am a bit concerned about thunderstorms "frying" my entire system. The Naim manuals were not too helpful in this respect.
Chris
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by Frank Abela
Naim don't recommend using power/line conditioners or filters. I've tried a few and they always seem to stifle the music. However, Paul Messenger is a big Niam user and he swears by the Isotek GII which I have not heard yet. Might be worth a try.
Can you tell me anything about the Mani-2 Signatures and how they differ from Mani-2's? I had not heard of Signatures before your postings.
Can you tell me anything about the Mani-2 Signatures and how they differ from Mani-2's? I had not heard of Signatures before your postings.
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by webrat11
cchua1,
An impressive system. You say you have biamped the centre speaker - how does this work please?
I currently have NAP175 and NAP200. I have upgraditis and am looking to get a 250 (probably olive to keep the cost down) to drive the front speakers and either keep the 200 or get another 180 or 250 for the rears. But what to get for the Centre? NAP145 is to pricey for me at the moment and you don't see many single NAP135s on sale. Do you (or anyone else) know if it is possible to bridge a stereo naim amp into mono? For info speakers are Wilson Benesch Discovery, Arcs and Centre which is why I have little cash left!
regards, Ian.
An impressive system. You say you have biamped the centre speaker - how does this work please?
I currently have NAP175 and NAP200. I have upgraditis and am looking to get a 250 (probably olive to keep the cost down) to drive the front speakers and either keep the 200 or get another 180 or 250 for the rears. But what to get for the Centre? NAP145 is to pricey for me at the moment and you don't see many single NAP135s on sale. Do you (or anyone else) know if it is possible to bridge a stereo naim amp into mono? For info speakers are Wilson Benesch Discovery, Arcs and Centre which is why I have little cash left!
regards, Ian.
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by karyboue
quote:
Originally posted by webrat11:
cchua1,
An impressive system. You say you have biamped the centre speaker - how does this work please?
I currently have NAP175 and NAP200. I have upgraditis and am looking to get a 250 (probably olive to keep the cost down) to drive the front speakers and either keep the 200 or get another 180 or 250 for the rears. But what to get for the Centre? NAP145 is to pricey for me at the moment and you don't see many single NAP135s on sale. Do you (or anyone else) know if it is possible to bridge a stereo naim amp into mono? For info speakers are Wilson Benesch Discovery, Arcs and Centre which is why I have little cash left!
regards, Ian.
Same config, same story. What about the center channel if we upgrade from 250 to 200, and keep the 200 for rears ?
I keep on saying there's space in Naim's range for a 3 ways NAP V200 or a mono NAP V200.
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by Geoff P
quote:
Can you tell me anything about the Mani-2 Signatures and how they differ from Mani-2's? I had not heard of Signatures before your postings.
Frank
I checked on Totem's web site because I was curious as well for the obvious reasons. They don't list a "signature" version of the Mani 2's only the Model 1. I suspect it may be naming differences around the world but the same speaker as my Mani's.
Maybe Chris can confirm.
regards
GEOFF
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by Colin Lorenson
Chris,
FWIW I'm using the Shunyata Hydra 8 and pythons on my system CS2/XPS2 - Halcro DM10 - Plinius Sa250 - B&W N802, and the effect is exactly as you describe and wholly beneficial.
Expensive, but here not as expensive as in rip-off UK.
FWIW I'm using the Shunyata Hydra 8 and pythons on my system CS2/XPS2 - Halcro DM10 - Plinius Sa250 - B&W N802, and the effect is exactly as you describe and wholly beneficial.
Expensive, but here not as expensive as in rip-off UK.
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by cchua1
Frank/Geoff
The Mani-2 Signatures are distinguishable from the Mani-2 by a gold/bronze oval Totem emblem found at the back of the speaker underneath the rear port. I've read somewhere that the Mani-2 Signatures are easier to drive. I don't think there will be a major difference in sound quality but have not done an A/B comparison. The local Totem dealer doesn't carry the Mani-2s - I had to import a pair from North America.
Ian
The local Naim dealer recommended biamping the center channel because it would not be a good idea to run it with one channel of my 250.2. He used a specially modified interconnect and NACA5 speaker cable to do so. The NACA5 speaker cable also needed a bit of modification because my speaker terminals were too close together. BTW, your center channel should be bi-wirable if you want to take this route.
Prior to buying 3 x 250.2, Geoff advised me to stick with NAP 250.2 for for the front and get the NAP 175 for the center and rear speakers. In retrospect, I think that would have been a very good piece of advice. Since you already have the 175, it would be a straight swop of your 200 with a 250. I have heard the Olive 250 and it is a highly regarded and great sounding amp. The new 250.2 is simply superb and driving the Mani-2 Signatures, the combo have certainly put a smile on my face.
Prior to this settling on my current configuration, I contemplated 5 x 135s. However, I found it difficult to find a single 135 on the 2nd hand market and understand that it may not be easy to match the 135's more aggressive sound ("peaky") sound with other Naim amps.
Good luck on your upgrade path!
Chris
The Mani-2 Signatures are distinguishable from the Mani-2 by a gold/bronze oval Totem emblem found at the back of the speaker underneath the rear port. I've read somewhere that the Mani-2 Signatures are easier to drive. I don't think there will be a major difference in sound quality but have not done an A/B comparison. The local Totem dealer doesn't carry the Mani-2s - I had to import a pair from North America.
Ian
The local Naim dealer recommended biamping the center channel because it would not be a good idea to run it with one channel of my 250.2. He used a specially modified interconnect and NACA5 speaker cable to do so. The NACA5 speaker cable also needed a bit of modification because my speaker terminals were too close together. BTW, your center channel should be bi-wirable if you want to take this route.
Prior to buying 3 x 250.2, Geoff advised me to stick with NAP 250.2 for for the front and get the NAP 175 for the center and rear speakers. In retrospect, I think that would have been a very good piece of advice. Since you already have the 175, it would be a straight swop of your 200 with a 250. I have heard the Olive 250 and it is a highly regarded and great sounding amp. The new 250.2 is simply superb and driving the Mani-2 Signatures, the combo have certainly put a smile on my face.
Prior to this settling on my current configuration, I contemplated 5 x 135s. However, I found it difficult to find a single 135 on the 2nd hand market and understand that it may not be easy to match the 135's more aggressive sound ("peaky") sound with other Naim amps.
Good luck on your upgrade path!
Chris
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by cchua1
Colin
I'm using the original Shunyata Hydra - the big heavy Corian verson powered by a Mojave. Have not used the new Shunyata Hydra 8 but have no doubt that it will perform well. I have a friend who's very happy with the Hydra 2. Have tried many power cords but I'm happy with Shunyata's products - especially the Pythons. My music-only sound system is powered exclusively with Pythons (Source/Power Amp) and Viper (Preamp).
Rgds
Chris
I'm using the original Shunyata Hydra - the big heavy Corian verson powered by a Mojave. Have not used the new Shunyata Hydra 8 but have no doubt that it will perform well. I have a friend who's very happy with the Hydra 2. Have tried many power cords but I'm happy with Shunyata's products - especially the Pythons. My music-only sound system is powered exclusively with Pythons (Source/Power Amp) and Viper (Preamp).
Rgds
Chris
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by Colin Lorenson
Chris,
If you want to get together sometime and compare systems let me know. I'm in central KL, just 5 mins from KLCC. I left you my mobile number on the other DVD5 thread
If you want to get together sometime and compare systems let me know. I'm in central KL, just 5 mins from KLCC. I left you my mobile number on the other DVD5 thread
Posted on: 04 February 2005 by karyboue
In order to test the 200 on the rears, I used the 175 in front/center
Man, a 200 on the rear is really fantastic compared to the 175, it highly increases the space on the back and sides, it becomes really vast, more precise and detailled and its tonal qualities are so much better than the 175 that it is really some major upgrade in HC.
webrat11 have you ever tried 175 front/center and 200 on rear ?
Man, a 200 on the rear is really fantastic compared to the 175, it highly increases the space on the back and sides, it becomes really vast, more precise and detailled and its tonal qualities are so much better than the 175 that it is really some major upgrade in HC.
webrat11 have you ever tried 175 front/center and 200 on rear ?
Posted on: 05 February 2005 by cchua1
The first time I heard the 175s, they were used to drive the S'pore Naim dealer's rear speakers (Genesis 6.1 rear dipoles - I think) and they did a decent job.
I'm now using the 250.2 to drive my rears (Totem Model 1s) and I only notice them occasionally. But I admit that when I do notice them, it's really special - it's hard to explain but on certain music or sound effects, the rears sounded so clean and distinct, it certainly adds space & realism.
I won't be surprised if the 200 outperforms the 175. But it brings us back to your original question - what to do about the center channel? I agree that Naim need to manufacture a higher specs 3 channel amp particularly for those who have more difficult speakers to drive or those who want top notch home theater sound. A bridged 250.2 is an expensive and not particularly elegeant solution. One "side-effect" is that the center channel becomes louder than the front left & right. This can be sorted out with the right adjustments on the AV2.
Would be interesting to hear from those people who use 200s, 250s, 300s etc to drive their front & center channel.
Chris
I'm now using the 250.2 to drive my rears (Totem Model 1s) and I only notice them occasionally. But I admit that when I do notice them, it's really special - it's hard to explain but on certain music or sound effects, the rears sounded so clean and distinct, it certainly adds space & realism.
I won't be surprised if the 200 outperforms the 175. But it brings us back to your original question - what to do about the center channel? I agree that Naim need to manufacture a higher specs 3 channel amp particularly for those who have more difficult speakers to drive or those who want top notch home theater sound. A bridged 250.2 is an expensive and not particularly elegeant solution. One "side-effect" is that the center channel becomes louder than the front left & right. This can be sorted out with the right adjustments on the AV2.
Would be interesting to hear from those people who use 200s, 250s, 300s etc to drive their front & center channel.
Chris
Posted on: 06 February 2005 by webrat11
Chris,
Hi, yes I have tried the 200 on the rears and it clearly out performs the 175. My understanding is that the 175 is 1 1/2 NAP150 so I suppose it is to be expected. I have also tried 140 and 180. Not a lot of difference from 140 to 150 - maybe more different than better. 180 better than 140 and 150. 200 better and different than 180.
I guess I may just have to start saving up for the 250-2 and 145!
I agree with you that there is a need for a 200 matched 3 channel amp or a mono amp below the 145 gap.
Ian.
Hi, yes I have tried the 200 on the rears and it clearly out performs the 175. My understanding is that the 175 is 1 1/2 NAP150 so I suppose it is to be expected. I have also tried 140 and 180. Not a lot of difference from 140 to 150 - maybe more different than better. 180 better than 140 and 150. 200 better and different than 180.
I guess I may just have to start saving up for the 250-2 and 145!
I agree with you that there is a need for a 200 matched 3 channel amp or a mono amp below the 145 gap.
Ian.