best upgrade for nait 3?

Posted by: o.j. on 14 March 2004

Hy there!
which cap will be soundwise the best?
i will not go for preamp/ power amp because
of the longer signal path.
possible to connect my no naim phonostage(24 v DC)to a cap? Confused
i will not go for naim cd or naim phonostage.
O.J.(still hoping 5i will change to better
sound while burning in)
O.J.
Posted on: 14 March 2004 by J.N.
Hi O.J.

quote:
which cap will be soundwise the best?


Er....... a Supercap!

quote:
possible to connect my no naim phonostage(24 v DC)to a cap?


As long as it's powered, it'll work into any input on a Naim amp.

You're probably better off changing the Nait3 for a Nait5i - it's a much better amplifier, and will of course complement your CD5i perfectly.
Posted on: 14 March 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
_Hi O.J._

quote:
which cap will be soundwise the best?


Er....... a Supercap!

quote:
possible to connect my no naim phonostage(24 v DC)to a cap?


As long as it's powered, it'll work into any input on a Naim amp.

You're probably better off changing the Nait3 for a Nait5i - it's a much better amplifier, and will of course complement your CD5i perfectly.
Hy J.N.
My problem is that 5i does not work as good as
nait 3 with my kans2.so i start to upgrade nait
3.supercap will be a little to superexpensive
for me,but sh hicap would be pricewise ok for me.my question about my no naim phonostage:
possible to get the voltage out of the hicap
with a cable to this24 volt phonostage?as i understood there are voltage exits for two components out of a hicap (one for nait3 pre,the other one can be used for phono?)
or am i wrong ? Confused
O.J.
Posted on: 14 March 2004 by syd
HiCap only provides power for one component, Flatcap 2 can power 2 components ie. a Pre and a phonostage but I would imagine it wouldn't work with a Non Naim phonostage without major surgery. Others may be able to throw more light on this.

Yours in Music

Syd
Posted on: 14 March 2004 by J.N.
I'm a bit confused. Does your non-Naim phono-stage not have its own dedicated power supply?

I would not throw money at a Nait3 by putting a HC on it personally, and am very surprised that even a brand new, stone cold Nait 5i doesn't blow the Nait3 into the weeds!

Do you use a CD player?

What is the TT and phono-stage?
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by David Stewart
quote:
I am very surprised that even a brand new, stone cold Nait 5i doesn't blow the Nait3 into the weeds!
That's an interesting assertion, but can I ask whether its based on actual side by side comparison, or is it just wild conjecture on your part??

Generally speaking, changing one Naim integrated for another is a 'side-grade' and usually results in a different sound, but not necessarily a better one! If you want to improve on a Nait, you will usually have to move to a pre/power combo, preferably at least one step up the foodchain.

The Nait3 does however provide the possibility of a CAP upgrade which will make a noticeable if not substantial improvement to its performance. The HiCap is likely to be better than the FlatCap in this regard, plus they are more easily available on the second-hand market.
The 5i of course doesn't offer this option at all.

David
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
I'm a bit confused. Does your non-Naim phono-stage not have its own dedicated power supply?

I would not throw money at a Nait3 by putting a HC on it personally, and am very surprised that even a brand new, stone cold Nait 5i doesn't blow the Nait3 into the weeds!

Do you use a CD player?

What is the TT and phono-stage?

Hy J.N.!My phono stage has a cheap korean power
supply(220V ac to 24v dc) and maybe a highcap can be soundwise an upgrade(but as Syd said hicap will only work for one component and this will be preamp section of nait3).

Phonostage is made
by maceaudio.I have a new p3 with goldring elite 1,cd is cambridge cd 6.speakers Kan2 on kan 2stands.perfect placed 3,3inches away from the front wall.
5i is working now since two days.
My feeling is that it sounds very fast with awful good bass control and rythm.
But i am missing open high frequencies,and the whole sound is a little bit like listening
through a compressor(maybe pushy,or shouting is the right term).Bass is also not going as
deep as with nait3.
so i decided to stay with nait 3.(and want to get best out of it.)
Intresting thing:the soundcharacter of the 5i
is also the same playing radio or nakamichi 202
tape.(the reason why i am sure i have no fault in my set up)
Maybe the sounddesign of 5i will match better
with cd 5i and other speakers.
O.J.
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by David Stewart:
quote:
I am very surprised that even a brand new, stone cold Nait 5i doesn't blow the Nait3 into the weeds!
That's an interesting assertion, but can I ask whether its based on actual side by side comparison, or is it just wild conjecture on your part??

Generally speaking, changing one Naim integrated for another is a 'side-grade' and usually results in a _different_ sound, but not necessarily a _better_ one! If you want to improve on a Nait, you will usually have to move to a pre/power combo, preferably at least one step up the foodchain.

The Nait3 does however provide the possibility of a CAP upgrade which will make a noticeable if not substantial improvement to its performance. The HiCap is likely to be better than the FlatCap in this regard, plus they are more easily available on the second-hand market.
The 5i of course doesn't offer this option at all.

David
Hy David!
I agree.I did the side by side
comparision.nait5ivsnait3at home.
i hope that hicap is a nait3 upgrade that will only improve performance and not change the soundcharacter of nait 3.
O.J.(likingshortsignalpaths) Wink
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by David Stewart
If you have problems powering the phono-stage, you could try the Naim internal cards for the Nait. They're very cheap to buy second-hand and may do better than your present phono with a cheap PSU.

With the HiCap driving the Nait-3, I believe you will end up with longer signal paths, because the Pre and power stages are effectively separated and reconnected via the HiCap. Your dealer will need to mod the Nait to take the Hi.

David
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by Bob Edwards
OJ--

Adding a Hicap to the Nait 3R will definitely give you a substantial improvement and not just make it sound different. Longer signal path or not, the VAST superiority of the Hicap over the piddly internal preamp supply built into the Nait more than makes up for it.

And the Nait 3R is a pretty damn good sounding piece of kit in its own right--it rarely seems to get its due here.

Best,

Bob
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by o.j.
quote:
Originally posted by David Stewart:
If you have problems powering the phono-stage, you could try the Naim internal cards for the Nait. They're very cheap to buy second-hand and may do better than your present phono with a cheap PSU.

With the HiCap driving the Nait-3, I believe you will end up with longer signal paths, because the Pre and power stages are effectively separated and reconnected via the HiCap. Your dealer will need to mod the Nait to take the Hi.

David
Hy David!No problem with my phonostage.I tryied nearby twenty phonostages
in all priceclasses and mine is second place in my personal ranking behind fm acoustics 122
in front of a lot really expensive ones.i thought only about the possibility to upgrade
the psu.
Not sure if i am right but i thought a hicap
would not lengthen the signalpath. Confused Roll Eyes
If this is the case i have to think over my upgrade way,because the short signalpath is the only(soundwise)benefit of an integrated
against a preamp/amp combi(pricewise benefit is you have to
pay only one box and one psu buying an integrated)
O.J.
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by David Stewart
Check with your dealer, but I'm pretty sure the HiCap upgrade worked as I described it. It's odds-on to bring about a significant improvement though, so I wouldn't get too hung up on signal path length. Bear in mind also the reason that Naim do it their way is to maintain star-earthing which they would claim is every bit as important (if not more so!).

David
Posted on: 15 March 2004 by J.N.
Hi David

quote:
That's an interesting assertion, but can I ask whether its based on actual side by side comparison, or is it just wild conjecture on your part??


It's based on listening to the Nait3, which friends have owned in the past. I also borrowed one from my dealer for a home dem a while back.

I guess, as ever this is a personal preference issue, but I became tired of the two dimensional sound of the older kit (that includes my ex- olive 52/250 etc) and much prefer the more engaging, and three dimensional sound of the new electronics, which for me offers much more insight into the music.

The Nait5i has the 'new' sound. The Nait3 (to me) has a somewhat two dimensional, dry and forward sound that lacks timbral and spatial information. On the plus side - it boogies like a bastard!

Horses for courses, as ever.
Posted on: 16 March 2004 by David Stewart
quote:
The Nait5i has the 'new' sound. The Nait3 (to me) has a somewhat two dimensional, dry and forward sound that lacks timbral and spatial information. On the plus side - it boogies like a bastard!


JN,
Like you said, I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I've only heard the 5i at the Heathrow Show last year (which is no way to judge it) and I was impressed, but wouldn't have said it was good enough to persuade me to dump my well sorted Nait3.

To me, stereo is two dimensional anyway, so thats not really an issue. HiCapping the CDP has (for me) tamed the tendency to be too dry and forward and in most ways the boogie-factor makes up for any other shortcomings it has.

I'd like more spatial and timbral information, although I dont feel it's seriously lacking in this regard, at least where the source material is top rate. In any event, I dont think I'm going to get that improvement without a change to a pre-power combo.

David
Posted on: 16 March 2004 by domfjbrown
I have to be honest - I prefer my NAIT3 over the NAIT5 as well; both have excellent bass and sound nice and dynamic, but I'm sure that volume control on the 5, whilst balancing properly, is limiting the performance.

I'm thinking of getting my NAIT serviced/mod'd, then getting a HC soon-ish myself. Tempted by a pre-power, but the NAIT isn't bad at all.

Using Rega Elas helps the soundstage, but I hardly ever hear "front to back" imaging anyway - only left to right - so I'm not bothered.

To be honest, you only need a really good image with classical. Most rock and pop etc is so weridly mixed that left to right spread is more than enough.

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

Posted on: 16 March 2004 by J.N.
quote:
I hardly ever hear "front to back" imaging anyway - only left to right


That's because Naim systems (particularly the older stuff) don't do it very well!

As much as I prefer the new electronics for their better spatial presentation, my SBL's still don't really 'image' like some other round earth speakers.

The problem of course, is that it seems nigh on impossible (or very expensive) to find a system that does it all.

The best attempt at 'everything' I ever heard; was a Krell/Wilson system at a show a few years back at around £45k! (Probably about £60k now)

A friend and fellow contributor here, hates the sound of my Naim system, much preferring the 'big-image' warm sound of his valve amps and horn speakers.

His sound for me just lacks 'drive'. He reckons Naim amps sound like P.A. amps!

What makes this hobby so fascinating, is that we're all looking and listening for something different.

By the way Dom; thanks for publishing the 'Me and Shrek' picture - Excellent!