My promised report on CD players!
Posted by: NigelP on 22 January 2001
Dear all,
I promised I would report on my findings from the last couple of weeks as I investigated CD and SACD and the strongest contenders on the market. The music chosen varied from UB40, Pink Floyd, The Fugees, David Gray and even Melanie C! The test system was:
NAC52/NAP500 into B&W 802
I listened to many players but the leading contenders became:
Naim CDX with XPS
The CDX is great on its own but is totally transformed with the power supply. This machine held its own but ultimately came in as third place.
Naim CDS-II with XPS
Well what can I say. This machine really is special but came in second in my poll.
Marantz SA-1
The surprise of the bunch. This machine was very adept, faultless on build quality, well thought out but not up to the standards from Naim. A good 4th place earned. SACD playback is stunning but media choices were limited.
Linn CD12
The winner! This really is a very special machine which is built beautifully and delivers the closest sound I have ever heard to the best in vinyl. This machine delivered just the little extra over the CDS-II and really seduced me as I struggled to work my finances.
I will probably end up with the CDS-II as I think that I will get more from this with a NAP500 (than my very good 250) and more open speakers (B&W 803 is high on the list here) than the Ninka at home. Oh but that CD12 was very good...
What of the Wadia? The dealer didn't want to lend me the machine! Eliminated on the basis of dealer helpfulness and company stability.
Posted on: 22 January 2001 by Phil Barry
Yeh, Nigel, you didn't think you'd get of this easy, did you?
When you say the Marantz came in 4th, was that on CD, SACD, or both. That is, was the CD12 better on CD than the Marantz was on SACD?
Seriously, thanks for your report.
Regards.
Phil
Posted on: 22 January 2001 by Bob Edwards
Nigel--
Was the CD12 plugged in while you were listening to the CDS2 ?
Cheers,
Bob
Ride the Light !
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Martin M
Which version of the 802 did you listen to, Nautilus or Matrix?
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Steve Toy
Jean-Christophe,
Having heard the Ikemi in my system against a CDX, a CD3.5, a Densen B400, and a CD5 it came bottom.
Don't even go there. Whilst it has a punchy sound, it is found wanting in the bass, which lacks control, extension,definition and speed. Basslines on Steely Dan's "Two against Nature" just completely tripped it up, which is a scandal when you consider its price tag of nearly two grand.All the above players mentioned beat it in this domain. With a budget of just under twenty thousand francs, I would go for a CD5 with a Flatcap2 or Hi-cap, or stretch to the CDX.Also I found the Ikemi to be small in scale and soundstaging
[This message was edited by steven toy on TUESDAY 23 January 2001 at 15:25.]
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Martin M
Anyone lent an ear to the DCS Elgar/Purcell through Naim gear?
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by NigelP
OK, OK, OK so you want to know more 
Richard The CD12 seems to have "more air" to it as though the picture is complete. The CDS-II is still brilliant but, when you swap between the two, there is a marked difference. It definitely sounds more like my LP12 than anything else I've heard.
Phil I was evaluating CD playback and the Marantz came 4th in this. The SACD was really good and, with more media, I would have loved to try more SACD evaluation. On balance SACD playback is a big improvement on CD but not sure it's better than the best of CD. I think the secret at this level is in the analogue timing as well as the digital.
Bob The CD12 and CDS-II were both plugged into the NAC52 when listening. Can I ask why you asked?
Martin M Nautilus and they're great!
Jean-Christophe The Ikemi is good but you should also listen to the CDX on its own and the Meridian 508.24 Steven Toy does offer the same conclusions I would offer.
Anyway, what were the differences? The Marantz was very impressive and I had to drive 250 miles to the above system to find out what it was really capable of. With my own NAC52/NAP250/Ninka it was great and easily justified the price tag. In the system above though, the timing of the Naim players and the CD12 were just that better. The CDX is good but the CDS-II give that more air and the CD12 was the pinnacle for me. Also the CD12 is one of finest engineered pieces of audio equipment I've laid my hands on. It looks great, exudes quality and sounds stunning. If you have the money and want to reach the ultimate I would recommend the CD12!
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Chris Bell
Nigel,
The switch mode power supply in the CD12 will ruin the performance of the CDS2. Since it seems you are buying a CDS2 you should get much better music without the Linn poluting the mains supply.
CBÇ
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Bob Edwards
Nigel--
The reason I asked if the CD12 was plugged in while the CDS2 was playing is that the CD12 puts a lot of garbage on the mains line that destroys the musical performance of the CDS2 (not to mention the sonics !). My dealer has both and if you listen to the CDS2 while the CD12 is plugged in its performance sounds like you describe it--it is still amazing, but you're not getting everything it can deliver. Unplugging the CD12 is an instant fix--that's when, in my experience, you can hear how much better the CDS2 is musically than the CD12 (which does some pretty cool things on its own).
Cheers,
Bob
Ride the Light !
PS--Chris Bell--how you like your NBLs ?ê
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Peter Litwack
Just thought I'd add a short note on my experience comparing a Sony ($6000 model) to my Naim CDX. No contest. The SACD was so bad i quickly realized the truth of the allegation that DSD one bit digital, as employed by Sony's SACD system, is a highly flawed technology. I then re-read a (largely ignored) report in Stereophile (November 2000) wherein the author, one David Rich, tore the limitations of the technology to shreds, and concluded that "With Super Audio CD, we are stuck with a system that cannot be improved. It is likely that SACD was brought to market not as a way of bringing audiophiles closer to the music, but of making digital audio more difficult to copy." Then I remembered a similarly scathing article written by J. Peter Moncrieff in IAR Hotline, which also attacked the technology and the sound quality. Hearing is believing! I'm just wondering how all the industry shills are hoodwinking the public at large. My prediction - SACD will fail within 3 years, if not sooner. Music loving audiophiles can not be fooled so easily.
BTW, rest of system: 102/PSC/HICAP/250/Meadowlark Heron i. Comparisons were made with several discs, duplicating the CDs with the same recordings on SACD
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by Chris Bell
Bob,
The NBLs are better than ever! The six pack really shows off what they are capable of. I have been experimenting with placement with some fantastic results. Pulling them away from the wall and reducing the toe-in created a faster, more involving sound. I always thought the NBL needed to be against the wall, but in my listening room 4" off the wall seems to be the magical placment.
I am getting an incredibly tunefull sound--The NBL is a remarkable speaker capable of truly exceptional performance. (near DBLs)
I have also broken the speciality rack myth--most of my componants are sitting on a pine utility shelving while I use a hybird Mana/Sound Org table for my CDS/52. I am convinced most "speciality" stands just ruin the music, forcing it out-of-tune. To each his own, I guess. I am getting really marvelous sound.
Chris Bell, Seattle
ê
Posted on: 23 January 2001 by NigelP
Chris and Bob,
Interesting thoughts on the CD12 switch-mode power supply affecting the performance of the CDS-II. This will be my next trial. Tell me does my Lingo have the same effect? Never use 45's so have been thinking about an Armageddon. Trouble is there seems to be a train of thought that the Lingo is better with the Linn arms and the Cirkus. Both of which are on my LP12.
Nigel
Posted on: 24 January 2001 by Chris Bell
Yes, the Lingo causes problems. Unplug the Lingo when you use your CDS, ect... It's an interesting demo to do for yourself. I will be eager to hear your report once your CDS2 is delivered and installed.
You won't be disapointed!
Chris Bell, Seattle–
Posted on: 24 January 2001 by Tony L
quote:
Yes, the Lingo causes problems.
I think it is anything with a mains suppresser that causes a problem. After having a few hardware failures recently on my computer I bought a surge / spike suppressing mains block to plug it into. Even though this is in another room to my stereo it affects the sound. Everything sounds a little more free and involving if I unplug the surge protector from the wall - this is nothing to do with the computer kit as it was turned off when I checked this.
The effect I am describing is quite obvious. I actually went looking for it as I felt my hi-fi sounded off last weekend and wanted to work out why, the mains protector was the only thing that had changed in the house.
I really want to find a good flat to buy as I am gagging for a dedicated mains spur. Looked at about 12 so far, just one was Kan friendly, and I lost that. Doh.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2001 by NigelP
Tried the CDS-II with the CD12 disconnected. Yes it does make a difference and the CDS-II did sound better. Plugged the CD12 back in and disconnected the CDS-II. The CD12 is still better - significant on some CD's and less apparent on others. E.g. Chaka Khan's (sp?)
I feel for you was good on the CDS-II but utterly amazing on the CD12. Truth is the playback was never inferior.
The difference for me was made apparent by a better source into a 52 that maybe compromised by the CD12 S-M power supply simply sounded better than the CDS-II through the 52. So the CD12's coming in February and I have to experiment with the LP12 Lingo. I think that my strategy will be to disconnect the CD12 when listening to vinyl (with an Armageddon) and only re-connect when listening to CD. Fortunately my sockets are easily accessable as I don't use mains blocks.
Next upgrade is the 250 to 500 and then onto NBL. Then I'll be a happy chappy! 
Posted on: 24 January 2001 by Greg Beatty
"I think that my strategy will be to disconnect the CD12 when listening to vinyl (with an Armageddon) and only re-connect when listening to CD."
...won't you be doing most of your CD listening with a cold CD player? Or does the CD12 not care if it is run cold or left on?
- GregB
- GregB
Music, not sound
Posted on: 24 January 2001 by NigelP
Greg,
You're right that I will start the CD12 from cold and yes it is an issue. Fortunately, I can leave the CD12 warming up on a CD while I make a cup of tea. Truth be known I'm going to have a play and see whether I can really tell the difference.
Nigel
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by NigelP
I do have a separate mains ring (other equipment sits on this ring) next to the dedicated one for the hifi. Here's what I have just tried:
Equipment
Linn LP12/Cirkus/Lingo/Ittok LV-II/Klyde/Prefix
Linn Mimik
NAC52/Supercap/NAP250
Ninka
Vinyl Tests
I have just put the Naim equipment on the dedicated spur and the Linn equipment on the ordinary household ring (Test 1). That was then compared to all equipment on the same dedicated spur (Test 2). Lingo on ring and Mimik on the same spur as the Naim equipment (Test 3)
CD tests
Similar tests - All Linn on separate ring (Test 4). All equipment on dedicated spur (Test 5). Lingo on ring and Mimik on the same spur as the Naim equipment (Test 6)
Results
Test 1
Good separation of instruments and vocals. Timing very good and musically great.
Test 2
Oh dear - now I see what the Switched Mode power supplies do to the sound of the LP12! This was still good but the separation wasn't as clear and timing was off compared to Test 1.
Test 3
A surprise! As good as Test 1.
Test 4
Timing off and clarity not what I expected.
Test 5
Withstanding that the Mimik is not up to the job in this system, this is as good as you can get from it. Timing was back and separation of instruments much improved.
Test 6
The same result as Test 5.
Conclusion
The Lingo is doing something horrible to the mains. I am going to keep this on a separate ring to the rest of the equipment from now on. I am assuming that as the Prefix has an Earth lead connected to the back of the 52 and the Lingo is not connect to the signal circuitry in any way that this is why the Lingo does not have to be on the same spur as the Naim equipment.
As I don't listen to 45rpm I am going to invest in the Armageddon (after listening tests) and put this back on the Naim spur.
The Mimik (based on Test 3) isn't affecting the system like the Lingo. It has to be on the same spur as the amplifiers presumably for Earth integrity. In this case the power supply is clearly connected to the signal paths and putting the Mimik on a separate ring did affect performance significantly. This could also be, of course, that the Mimik was being affected by dirty mains on the ring.
In conclusion then I am going to keep the very dirty Lingo on the ring and put the CD player and amplification on the dedicated spur. Once I have the Armageddon this will join the rest of the equipment. If anyone has tried the CD player on a separate dedicated spur to the amplification, I would really like to know how they got on.
Nigel
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Martin Payne
Unless you're Lingo is wired with a special cable to provide a floating earth it is giving second earth path.
Compare sound of Mimic with Lingo switched off, but plugged into mains & pre-amp, with same setup but all three leads disconnected from back of pre.
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Martin Payne
P.S. If the Mimik does not also provide an earth this latter option will sound worse.
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 28 January 2001 by bam
I've read this thread with interest not just because of a healthy debate between Linn and Naim but also because of more evidence of main noise susceptibility of Naim equipment. Yesterday I was following another thread to do with amplifier sensitivity. It may be that the CD12 noise can effect your amp too.
Seems to me that there is an opportunity here for Naim (or someone else) to market a mains clean-up unit for use with Naim equipment. This would be a better solution than achievable by adding new spurs or changing fuse types or whatever. And it would give Naim yet another accessory to generate more revenue for themselves and their dealers.
You heard it here first.
BAM
Posted on: 28 January 2001 by bam
Why don't you design a mains purifier?
There seems to be quite some demand for it within this forum. It seems a shame that some customers aren't getting the full potential of their systems or aren't able to use other equipment (eg CD12) without degrading the sound.
BAM
