Country flags - where to get them?

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Originally posted by Stevie Dempster:
OK, so every one expects of the England squad come Euro 2004 (Except for Steve G of course )

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My mother is English so I could support them if I wanted to!

But I don't. I don't care if England get to the later stages if their standard of play warrants it. I'd not be happy to see them win though...

One of my colleagues has a bottle of champers in the office fridge waiting to be popped as soon as England go out.

BTW I have no issue with English people flying their own flags and I'm surprised how much attention it's getting in the press.

Saw one chap interviewed on the BBC this morning about the flags etc. this morning though - "I think it's great, it's what being British is all about"...

Go on, you know you want to.

or even this one !

This flag flying business is contentious whether we like it or not.

1) It rarely happened until people started to mass manufacture as a business opportunity.

2) Todays' elections involve the BNP whether we like it or not and, whilst I am comfortable with anyone who wishes to "reclaim the flag" I do think the timing is rather bad, and, for the most part the people who do this don't even think of such issues. It's a lot simpler for them. Oh, if only life were that simple!

3) By all means fly a flag but I am really struggling with the concept of a team that has won once in nine months (and that in a game where it now appears the opposition were asked to go in light) then winning Euro 2004.

4) By all means fly a flag but if you wouldn't contemplate it in Northern Ireland then please think how it looks in Wales or Scotland!

Absolutely no problem with English folk waving an English flag or singing an English national anthem. It's certainly preferable to hijacking the British Union Flag and singing the British national anthem.

I also heard the comment mentioned above, i.e. "it's what being British is all about" and frankly that illustrates perfectly why many Irish, Scots and Welsh folk bear this apparent grudge against England. For many people this sums up what being English is all about i.e. England = Britain.

... and therein lies the problem. Ian Flanagan from St. Asaph and rated 8** in the world of tennis (about right then!) beats Philipoussis (forgive the spelling) and he becomes British. In the BBC web site report he is referred to as British three times and Welsh once.

Now... equations for the English!!!

English win equals English win.
English loss equals British loss.
Wales, Scotland and Ireland win equals British win.
Wales, Scotland and Ireland loss equals Wales, Scottish or Irish loss.

Then we have to smile as

- the Republic of Ireland beat Holland and it is claimed as a British win!!!

- the English claim that they would have supported us had we made the finals of a major tournament despite there being no evidence of this when the Scots or Irish ever did. Indeed, the only evidence is of how these countries suddenly became British. That's not the support we want quite frankly.

Incidentally, there is no apparent grudge between the Welsh and the English. It's a very real one based on specific hidtorical facts.

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Originally posted by Mike Hughes:

Incidentally, there is no apparent grudge between the Welsh and the English. It's a very real one based on specific hidtorical facts.

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I was trying to be diplomatic.

This Brtiain/England comes up all the time and it's simply not true. I know people who work at teh BBC and they are extremely careful about this sort of thing. ISTM that it's a fine example of observer bias affecting people's perceptions which is why its only something that the Scots and Welsh seem to notice.

To be honest the whole issue just makes the people who complain about it sound petty and overly defensive.

"the Republic of Ireland beat Holland and it is claimed as a British win!!!"

Do you have a link or a specific reference for this?

And fwiw it strikes me that that is just a flat out journalistic error rather than evidence of some secret pro-English/British bias.

"the English claim that they would have supported us had we made the finals of a major tournament"

Some English people do support the Scots and the Welsh. Some, including myself, generally don't (at least not in football and in sports where we have England, Scotland, Wales and NI rather than Great Britain). To claim "the English" do this is a bit silly.

The BBC, being British, is of course obliged to support all the "home nations".

Matthew

"the Republic of Ireland beat Holland and it is claimed as a British win!!!"

How many of the current side were actually born in the Republic?

(I've no idea by the way, but historically many of their best players had maternal grandmothers born in the Republic - which makes me eligible, also my son 'cos my wife's father hailed from Cork)

Mike,
I can assure you that an English loss in Portugal will be treated by English people as an English loss rather than a British one.
I can also assure you that when Scotland or Wales win it doesn't fill me with pride!
Simon

Matthew:

Ah, but the Britain/England thing does happen, including on the Beeb. It's something that you wouldn't necessarily notice as much living in England. Believe me, you notice it in Scotland.

Oddly enough, Scots (or at least the misguided few who care about cricket) do tend to support the England cricket team.

Jings. Crivens. Help ma Boab.

Davie

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Originally posted by Simon Perry:
Mike,
I can assure you that an English loss in Portugal will be treated by English people as an English loss rather than a British one.
I can also assure you that when Scotland or Wales win it doesn't fill me with pride!

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That's exactly how it should be IMHO (not that the Scotland team have filled anyone with pride for a long, long time).

On a club level I support Rangers and when our closest rivals, Celtic (who've still won nothing like as many trophies as Rangers), play in most tournaments (part from some European cometitions) I like nothing better to see them getting stuffed - they are our closest rivals after all. It's exactly the same with the England football team - even were the playing against a national team from the country with a terrible human rights record and corrupt, disgusting political leadership (the USofA for example) I'd support the opposition.

Northern Ireland are even worse than us so I always have some pity for them. The Welsh I don't mind doing well (apart from that big bastard Hartson of course) and the Irish team I'll often actively support (despite the Celtic/Ireland connection) - but England (despite my having an English mother) I can't see me ever supporting.

I don't see why anyone should have a problem with that and I can't see why anyone English would even care.

[This message was edited by Steve G on Fri 11 June 2004 at 20:10.]

When I posted that "I can also assure you that when Scotland or Wales win it doesn't fill me with pride!", it is of course difficult to recall Scotland winning anything, but in theory at least my statement stands.

Bhoyo said "Believe me, you notice it in Scotland"

My point is that you notice it in Scotland because you are Scottish not becuase it happens a lot. I.e. you don't notice all the times it doesn't happen which would disprove the theory. It's a classic example of expectation bias.

The point of England/Scotland is that it's a classic near neighbour/shared history sporting rivalry like Arsenal/Totenham or Rangers/Celtic. It's entirely appropriate for we English to giggle when Scotland get thumped 6-0 by The Netherlands and, equally, for you Scotches to take great delight should England get whopped 4-0 by the French on Sunday.

Matthew

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Originally posted by Steve G:
On a club level I support Rangers and in most tournaments (part from some European cometitions) I like nothing better to see them getting stuffed

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My feelings exactly. Finally seeing the light, Steve?

Regards,
Davie

Matthew

Whislt I admire the argument that you make (above) please note the following :

Scotch (plural Scotches) refers to whisky.
Scot (plural Scots) refer to the people.

Regarding expectation bias - I think that the English seem to have the copyright on that one.............

Names such as Ken Buchanan, Jim Watt, Jackie Stewart, Colin Macrae and Steven Hendry are a few that immediately signify Scottish success on a world stage.

No point going on as us Scots never win anything.

I've been cycling around Millwall the last couple of days sporting various national flags: Portugal, Russia, Spain, France, Germany, England. None have caused comment apart from the cross of St George which elicited a very loud 'TWAT' but I think that's because it withdrew their left eye.

Mekon, this is the euro flag you meant

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Originally posted by Bhoyo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve G:
On a club level I support Rangers and in most tournaments (part from some European cometitions) I like nothing better to see them getting stuffed

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My feelings exactly. Finally seeing the light, Steve?

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Something very odd happened to my post - perhaps even the Naim forum hates Celtic and strips any references out?

BTW do you think you lot are going to sign any players this close season?

"Scotch (plural Scotches) refers to whisky.
Scot (plural Scots) refer to the people"

Yes I know. But when engaging in banter with a Scotch its traditional to get it wrong in an ironic acknowledgement of the cliched aspects of Anglo-Scotch rivalry.

Matthew

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
"Scotch (plural Scotches) refers to whisky.
Scot (plural Scots) refer to the people"

Yes I know. But when engaging in banter with a Scotch its traditional to get it wrong in an ironic acknowledgement of the cliched aspects of Anglo-Scotch rivalry.

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Really? We just thought you were stupid.

Ditto.

Of course as the dominant colonial power we can call you oppressed Jockos whatever we like.

And we get to spend your oil money on making thatLondon nicer.

Matthew

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Originally posted by Steve G:
Something very odd happened to my post...

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A likely story.

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BTW do you think you lot are going to sign any players this close season?

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Yeah, but we're waiting until Figo, Henry, Van Persie et al have finished their Euro 2004 exertions before bringing them to Paradise.

Regards,
Davie

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
And we get to spend your oil money on making thatLondon nicer.

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You're a wicked, wicked man. My ma warned me about people like you.

Davie