Keep DEATH off the Roads

Steve

I would have drawn nearer and nearer to the psychopath's car. The realisation that you cared less about the appearance of your car than he did. Might have brought him to his senses. Had he tried to ram you sideways then it would be hid fault, not yours. You made no attenpt to push him off the road.

There is a class of young driver that has no concept of danger. One of my young colleagues approached me in the village on a blind bend at well over 80kph. Fighting desperately for control of his souped-up Golf as it crabbed sideways across the road in the wet. Naturally the car was full of similar morons being given a demonstration of ultimate driving skill.

He should have seen the carnage in another local village. When someone tried to overtake at the narrow crossroads. It left a VW minibus upside down, a car completely cut in two lengthways. With an ashen-faced girl sitting very still amidst the tangled wreckage. God knows where her legs or the driver were.
An old tractor was at 45 degrees to the road facing the wrong way. The old farmer was running up and down. Shouting, crying and beating his head.
We had obviously arrived seconds after the event. Fortunately our side of the road was clear and I took us carefully away from the scene of horror.

I used to be intimidated by tailgaters. Then realised that it would be me who was photographed if I was the leading vehicle at a speed control. Since that realisation I never make the speed adjustments demanded by bullies. If the tailgater insists on getting too close I simply slow down to whatever speed is necessary to allow them to overtake. Even if it is a crawl or complete stop on an open road.

On the motorway it is more difficult and demands great care. I will not speed but nor will I be intimidated. For my troubles I have been tooted by a number of vehicles travelling at very high speed and wishing to continue their illegal pace.

I have also had a mercedes white van with darkened windows make repeated attempts to push me right off a very busy motorway. Only the close approach of the lorry that we had just overtaken forced him to give up and speed up to the back of the long queue in the overtaking lane. Where he repeated exactly the same tactics on the last vehicle in the queue. An action repeated day after day, year after year by a vast numbers of drivers.

I emphasise that I do not drive slowly and would not delibberately baulk anyone. But I have the right to overtake a slower vehicle while I am driving at the legal speed limit. Even if it proves that I am the second slowest vehicle on the motorway that day. Pulling out into a long gap mean nothing if the vehiclezs on the road are traveliing at very high and illegal speeds. In practice there are no longer any gaps.

I would guestimate that 98% the non-HGV motorway traffic is exceeding the clearly indicated speed limit by at least 20kph or more. The speed limit signs are often placed every few hundred meters. One never sees a police car on the motorway from one month to the next.

A law that is ignored and not enforced is a bad law. The speed limit has recently been raised on certain parts of the motorway to 130kph. That means that most vehicles must now travel at 150kph plus to contiinue their mad rush to the back of the next queue in the overtaking lane.

Had they seen that tragic young woman standing in the overtaking lane beside her mangled Toyota. Deperately trying to remove her baby from the ripped-open wreckage of her once-smart car. While speeding cars swerved like a Hollywood action movie all around her. They might modify their illegal behaviour.

But, perhaps fortunately, these brain-dead morons hardly ever see the effects of their madness as they sit in their warm, shiny cocoons. Oblivious to the consequences of their daily dice with death.

Most of them aren't even watching the road ahead. Many are using mobile phones, looking at papers or maps, fiddling with the radio, lighting cigarettes, looking at a navigation screen, turning their heads to talk to their passengers. Or even turning to look at children in the rear seats.

My what skill they (think they) have.

Nime

"I used to be intimidated by tailgaters. Then realised that it would be me who was photographed if I was the leading vehicle at a speed control. Since that realisation I never make the speed adjustments demanded by bullies. If the tailgater insists on getting too close I simply slow down to whatever speed is necessary to allow them to overtake. Even if it is a crawl or complete stop on an open road. "

That's exactly what I do.

The worst cases I see are generally either bus drivers (having a large bus 2ft from your bumper is no fun) or taxi drivers late at night. On my way home from town late at night when I'm sticking to the 30mph speed limit (as I always do) I'm usually passed by a number of cabs doing 35-45mph. I bet most of them assume I've been drinking as well, just because I stick to the speed limits.

Whatever speed you are doing at the time. A tailgater that runs into you is automatically guilty of something.
In the heat of the moment and the rage of being denied his supposed right to travel at any illegal speed he chooses. He still dare not hit you from behind with his car. That is your only trump card in a world where most drivers seem to simply ignore the speed limits.

I carry my digital camera at all times. But I would have to be safely parked to be able to set and use it. Training my wife to take a picture. Or just release the flash while mobile. Would be more trouble than it is worth. Life is simply too short. She would never find her glasses in time.

I did think of having a pop-up, mock video camera on the hatch shelf to warn tailgaters. I could probably train my wife to pull the string and even to switch on a couple of bright red LEDs.

It took some explaining why she couldn't simply hang out of the window clutching a painted speeed limit "bat" in her hand on the motorway.

Nime

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Originally posted by Nime:

We had obviously arrived seconds after the event. Fortunately our side of the road was clear and I took us carefully away from the scene of horror.

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Shouldn't you have stopped to help, rang the emergency services or at least checked somebdy had?

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In the initial scenario you were speeding at 80mph in a 60 zone when the incident occurred (see your quote 'as a rule I do not overtake...above the speed limit'). Did you tell that to the Police when you reported the whole event?

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When performing an overtaking manoeuvre I don't look at my speedometer, I look at the road ahead and then check my mirror before pulling back in. On this occasion I admit to reaching 80mph in an attempt safely to clear a vehicle that did not even begin to accelerate until I was already alongside him. Initially I just wanted to get past him, and then upon glancing at my speedometer I then decided to abort the manoeuvre as I wasn't in a race, I just wanted to proceed at the speed limit of 60mph and not 47 mph.

(I didn't get close to the Corsa before I passed it either, so some of you can let go of your little straws and stop looking for excuses for the psychotic behaviour of Mr Chavscum.)

A couple of years back (I was on my way to St*l***n's place as it happens) I had to pull completely off the road in order to avoid a head-on with a car overtaking who refused to exceed the speed limit while he was effectively on my side of the road coming towards me. Had he just booted it, he'd have had enough time to clear the vehicle he was overtaking without the need to run me off the road. I was travelling at 60 mph at the time in a 60 zone.

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You made no attenpt to push him off the road.

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It didn't even enter my head to do this, although some of my colleages did make suggestions to that effect.

The reality is I don't suffer from road rage (other than to perhaps piss and moan about them a bit, and the occasional toot of the horn, or single flash of the main beams.) My responses to other road-users, I'd like to think, are always measured, thought-out and controlled.

It is ironic that the biggest critic here of me, my occupation and my driving is Mr Graham who spouts a lot of stereotypical bollocks about taxi drivers.

He has admitted on this forum on a number of occasions to suffering bouts of road rage where he gets out of his car, hauls the guy in the other car out and gives him a good kicking. I suspect, however, that this is just pure fantasy - alive and well only inside his head, because if he's as pathetic a little man in real life as he is on this forum, he'd be utterly incapable of such thuggery.

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Steven is a taxi driver and therefore probably feels the traffic laws don't apply to him.

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The above statement speaks for itself.

It's quite sad really when you think about it.

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I am assured that if Mr Toy would like to attend and give a sworn statement of the event, the Police would be happy to prosecute; him, for speeding.

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My statement would read:

I may possibly have exceeded the speed limit a little whilst overtaking, but only to clear the hazard as quickly as possible before then proceeding at or below the posted speed limit, having safely completed the manoeuvre.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Tue 07 December 2004 at 13:39.]

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I did think of having a pop-up, mock video camera on the hatch shelf to warn tailgaters. I could probably train my wife to pull the string and even to switch on a couple of bright red LEDs.

It took some explaining why she couldn't simply hang out of the window clutching a painted speeed limit "bat" in her hand on the motorway.

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With respect, Nime, speed isn't the issue here, it's the distance between your vehicle and the one behind you.

It would be much safer to travel at 150 km/h with two seconds between each vehicle than to travel at 130 with only a few centimetres between you an the car in front of you or behind.

Bruce Woodhouse,

Whilst on the topic of tailgating, read my above post again. I did not suggest brake-testing a tailgater - and by this I presume you mean hitting the brakes hard so as to be able to make a claim for whiplash when the car behind inevitable runs into you. I'd prefer my neck not to be in a collar for the rest of my life than pick up a couple of grand.

When I've got chavscum up my arse I do pull over if there is space for me to do so safely.

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PS: As a rule I don't overtake vehicles that are already travelling at or above the posted speed limit on single-carriageway roads.

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I will add to this:

However, upon overtaking a vehicle that is proceeding below the speed limit, I may exceed the limit for the duration of the overtaking manoeuvre.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Tue 07 December 2004 at 14:42.]

I know it's a bit naughty but awhile back on many an occassio9n flying back down the M11 at the end of the day in my BR transit, I'd shit people tailgating me up, by turning on my lights, they thinking I was breaking, Oh wot fun we had !!!



FR$itz Von Trainthestrain

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Originally posted by Steve Toy:

...and stop looking for excuses for the psychotic behaviour of Mr Chavscum.

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Well said. (Except that you mean psychopathic rather than psychotic).

Chaps

I actually had Mr Toy down as being a member of the Chav fraternity.

Regards

Mick

You've got it in for me these days, haven't you Mick?

I hate chavs.

Also, I don't drive around in a modified car.

My car is taxed, insured and MOTd.

My car is quite large.

Its windows are not blacked out.

I don't take drugs, sniff anything or just sniff.

I don't wear anything on my head unless it's very cold.

I don't wear white trainers.

I don't wear sportswear.

I don't steal.

I don't receive stolen or counterfeit goods.

At the age of 18 I was still childless.

At the age of 18 I was taking my A Levels.

I have a degree.

So how can I be a chav?

Do you know the meaning of the word "chav?"

Regards,

Steve.

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Well said. (Except that you mean psychopathic rather than psychotic).

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I accept your correction Jeremy.

However, I guess he's both:-

Psychopathic in that he has no conscience or regard for human life.

Psychotic in that he probably doesn't think he was doing anything wrong, and that "I made him do it" or something like that. His version of events would be at odds with mine and he wouldn't even be aware that he was lying...

Regards,

Steve.

so modified car = asshole?

Just curious, cause that's how it seems.
Painting everybody with one brush, no?

regards,

michael

michael

I certainly did not paint everyone with the same brush.

There are many who modify cars and do so with incredible skill and ability. These people take safety of themselves and others very seriously.

There are others who "max it up" and generally follow the "chav/ned" philosophy of life. No regard for safety, learning or others. They live life according to the great god Halford. Usual tribal markings are noted (such as Burberry caps, bad teeth, crap haircuts)

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Originally posted by reductionist:
Shouldn't you have stopped to help, rang the emergency services or at least checked somebody had?

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Of course I would have done so if it had been an empty road. But this was in the midddle of a village at lunchtime and outside a garage. There were already enough people milling about without further cars blocking the road. Fortunately the nearest ambulance & fire-brigade station and all-day doctors surgery were less than a mile away.

I noted immediately that there were people using mobile telephones and assumed that everything would be shortly under skilled professional control. My presence would not have helped anyone.

This village is on a busy road and has a (50kph) 30mph speed limit with numerous compulsory speed restriction signs. I am regularly overtaken there. The average speed is probably closer to 45mph.

I am not without compassion. It took months before I forgot the look on that poor girl's face. And the girl on the motorway haunts me to this day.

These two uneccessary tragedies are what makes me so angry about speeding and lack of attention at the wheel.

It has now become impossible to travel a kilometre without seeing at least one mobile phone in use behind the wheel. Easily spotted by the erratic behaviour of the vehicle. It takes only a few hundred metres to witness illegal speeds and lethally dangerous overtaking on narrow, twisting rural roads.

Nime

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These two uneccessary tragedies are what makes me so angry about speeding

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oh dear, here we go again... Nime, the fools in charge of road safety who are guilty of brainwashing people such as yourself with these simplistic ideas really have a lot to answer for. Inattention is the biggest killer on our roads. Don't hear much being done about that. Too expensive I guess. You may also want to consider that unlike what is promoted by the 'speed kills' lobby, the 'speed limit' is not like some magical forcefield that protects you if you drive at that speed and no more - you can drive at excessive speed well within the speed limit and the scary thing is that most people do and don't even realise it because "speed kills, and I'm doing the speed limit so it must be ok".
Amazingly, you can also drive safely at speeds well above the speed limit - given the right conditions.

John, I hope you don't drive as fast as you read. He said 'speeding and lack of attention'.

John

1. Big heavy fast things kill people on roads.

2. Heavy fast things...Lorries>Cars>Motorbikes>bikes>peds

3. Noone needs to get anywhere fast (999 excepted)

4. If you don't want to kill people go lighter or slower

Simple really

John

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These two uneccessary tragedies are what makes me so angry about speeding and lack of attention at the wheel.

It has now become impossible to travel a kilometre without seeing at least one mobile phone in use behind the wheel. Easily spotted by the erratic behaviour of the vehicle. It takes only a few hundred metres to witness illegal speeds and lethally dangerous overtaking on narrow, twisting rural roads.

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Focus on the inattentive driving not on those who drive fast.

You tend to fail to notice competent drivers who go fast because they will never tailgate you and never get in your way. A good, fast driver who keeps reasonable distance between him and the car in front, one who slows at junctions when he sees that a car may pull out into his/her path, and generally creates space around his/her vehicle, is virtually invisible on the roads (except to those who can't stand being overtaken when they are travelling at more than 10mph below a posted speed limit.)

The above is me, btw, and no matter how fast I'm travelling I always ease off the throttle to someone who is about to overtake me, so that they can complete their overtaking manoeuvre more quickly and safely.

I was doing 70 in a 60 zone once, about two years ago (on the same stretch of straight road as the one I cited starting this thread but travelling in the opposite direction) and I eased off the throttle to let a vehicle pass. Once the guy had safely completed his overtake, he thanked me by putting on his hazard lights for a few seconds.

The vehicle in question had yellow and blue reflective markings on the back of his vehicle as well as the word "POLICE." He didn't switch on his blue-flashing lights either before or after his overtake...

You don't ever overtake on bends*. I certainly never would - and that partly explains why I've driven a taxi for ten years without an accident (touch-wood) apart from clouting the odd bollard in a car park, or dozing off in a slow-moving traffic queue in 1997 during a triple-shift when I went into the back of a 38-ton lorry at 5mph... and from that day onwards I've never ever done more than one shift in a 24 hour period.

Life teaches you lessons and I always try to learn from them.

I take time off if my sleep has dropped below 6 hours before I start my shift, even if it is only half an hour or so for a cat-nap during my shift.

* I did this once back in 1996 when I was following a colleague across Cannock Chase, and back then we had CB radios in our cars. He said, across the airwaves, that the road ahead was clear as he exited the bend, so I went for it. I still felt uneasy though despite the fact that this was - and still is, a guy I'd trust my life to.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Wed 08 December 2004 at 2:25.]

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I hope you don't drive as fast as you read. He said 'speeding and lack of attention'.

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perhaps you should read a bit slower. 'Speeding' was the key point if you read through his earlier messages about wanting to beat people with the 'speed limit stick', and all the crazy people exceeding the speed limit. For example:

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But, perhaps fortunately, these brain-dead morons hardly ever see the effects of their madness as they sit in their warm, shiny cocoons. Oblivious to the consequences of their daily dice with death.

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1. Big heavy fast things kill people on roads.
2. Heavy fast things...Lorries>Cars>Motorbikes>bikes>peds

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well if you think that trucks are responsible for most of the road's fatalities then what can I say?

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4. If you don't want to kill people go lighter or slower

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If you really believe this then I think you should throw away your car keys and stick to public transport because it's just about the most stupid thing I've read on here to date.
Why? I'm driving along a motorway at 80mph. I can see a mile ahead. I notice in the distance that the traffic has come to a stop so I slow down in plenty of time.
Mike is driving at 60mph (nice, safe speed that, well within the speed limit) on the same motorway at the same time in the same conditions . He's eating a burger and trying to find a new station on the radio. On top of all that the kids in the back seat have been giving him some lip as well and he's really not in the mood after 2 hours sleep. When he's looking at the road he's looking at a point about 50m in front of his car. He manages to hit the brakes about half a second before plowing into the line of stopped traffic.

[This message was edited by John Sheridan on Wed 08 December 2004 at 8:14.]

[This message was edited by John Sheridan on Wed 08 December 2004 at 8:15.]

I threw away the cage keys some time ago.

It's irrelevant how good you are at driving, the greater majority aren't, as judged by the road death rates. Other than outlawing human error I can't see any other practical way to reduce accidents other than speed limits.Are you suggesting banning all the inattentive drivers?

My point about heavy fast things was that not many speeding pedestrians kill people. For what it's worth my observation of road usage (peds, bikes included) is that we are all equally guilty of appalling lack of attention, just that some are driving lethal weapons.

John
ps You used the selective quote

[This message was edited by John C on Wed 08 December 2004 at 9:02.]

It all comes down to judgement and personal skill.
Stirling Moss was once booked for speeding.(Who?)
To be overtaken and stopped required a police driver to further exceed the speed limit. Who was more likely to achive this feat safely? I had great respsct for police drivers and defensive driving. Until one wrecked the local historical smithy.

A keyed up skilled river driving defensively can travel at higher speeds than most. Until something totally unexpected happens. Front tyre burst, black ice, cyclist/pedestrian emerges from undergrowth etc.

Nime

Ex-engine tuner, kit car builder and sports car driver.
Two rear enders from local drivers while stopped at traffic lights resulting in whiplash injuries. One black ice incident with our rear wheel drive car overtaking a slower vehicle. I might have lost my wife if we hadn't had the most extraordinary good luck. A break in the traffic coming the other way allowed me to involuntarily hit the opposite bank after losing complete control for over 500 metres, uphill on a wide, perfectly straight, main road.

It is surely one of the interesting facts of the modern world (along with the observation that all parents have 'above average' children) that whenever a driving thread is started the only drivers represented are exceptional ones. Me included.

Driving is fundamentally dangerous. 'Perfect' drivers will still have accidents, not always due to the fault of other road users either. Tyres burst, drystone walls spill large rocks into the midlle of the road for unsuspecting travellers etc (ouch). Reducing speeds reduces the energy in an impact, lengthens decision times, shortens braking distances. High speed does indeed increase your chance of death. Nobody is presenting a simplistic argument that this is the entire answer to reducing road accidents, but it is a start, and one that is moderately enforceable.

As for lightness, there is an interesting point here. Modern cars, with their feelings of solidity and quiet may well make drivers more immune to speed than they used to be. My Caterham feels extremely exposed, noisy and potential fragile-sure concentrates the mind.

Bruce

A little late seeing this thread but after reading all of the posts, it seems to me that Steven Toy is probably one of a few "interested, with a professional approach" drivers. I suspect he has had some kind of advanced training or at least is willing to learn from his mistakes. Research apparently shows that most drivers do not accept that they have any faults and are therefore not likely to learn from their mistakes.
Whilst it is true to say that some people will NEVER be a good driver, good drivers are trained and not born.
If someone tailgates you, increase the distance between yourself and the car in front to compensate for the lack of braking distance of the guy behind you. If someone seems to be deliberately "winding you up" - chill out, don't compete with him, if neccessary, pull over and stop. If it's not practical do do so, or if you're fearing for you life, continue in a safe manner until you can.
It is vital to look well ahead and plan ahead, using the "what if" technique. "I am about to overtake this car, what if he suddenly speeds up/slows down, moves lanes" - always know what your options are as an alternative safety measure.
We all at times, do get wound up by other drivers, however, it's our safety and well being that is paramount.
I was recently enjoying a reasonably "fast" drive in my sports car and had a sooped up Tigra "trying it on" trying to get past me - he was all over the road on the extreme limits of his car and was all over the place. I wasn't actually "trying", I was just enjoying a drive at my own pace. For the safety of the Tigra, I slowed down and let him go at his own pace, feeling it safer to do so. I presume he thought he was showing me how good his car and driving were.
Don't rise to the bait.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

quote:

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Originally posted by John C:
1. Big heavy fast things kill people on roads.

2. Heavy fast things...Lorries>Cars>Motorbikes>bikes>peds

3. Noone needs to get anywhere fast (999 excepted)

4. If you don't want to kill people go lighter or slower

Simple really

John

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I agree in general with your logic, John, and to a degree with Bruce's response, but vehicle mass is unlikely to be reduced significantly and downsizing is impractical. Clearly,impact speed and vehicle mass have a direct effect on crash avoidance or survivability rates of other road users/pedestrians, but society accepts a certain amount of deaths in return for the convenience and freedom brought by high speed travel. If we reduce vehicle speed to <30mph, we can effect a huge reduction in casualties but we choose not to make the trade off - quite rightly I would say.

I dislike quoting the research statistic, but it seem that excessive speed is responsible for <10% of road accidents, and again I acknowledge the premis that a blanket speed reduction would reduce this further, so it's my opinion that more focus should be given to the remaining causes of accidents - impatience/incorrect judgement at junctions/lack of concentration/lack of observation etc.

I don't believe that further reductions in speed limits/increased speed limit enforcement will have a measureable effect on collision rates because drivers won't acknowledge what they see as artificially low limits for the prevailing conditions and will risk prosecution. As speed is a small component in overall rates, then fatalities will not significantly change.

Brian OReilly

I'd agree that reducing speed limits further may not reduce collision rates by much, but the issue is that speed increases the violence of the collision when it happens. Rates of accidents vs rates of fatality are not the same thing.

I'm not advocating draconian enforcement or further reductions in speed limits specifically, I just wish that those who complain about the driving of others, whilst speeding themselves, acknowledged their own culpability. When they get caught (as I have been) then I think they should take the punishment.

...and yes surely society has chosen to accept given casualty rates. Until it happens to a close relative of course.
Bruce