Keep DEATH off the Roads

Posted by: Steve Toy on 05 December 2004

It's December, the month for a greater number of drink-drivers who drive slowly and erratically, ocasionally getting in my way while I ferry punters around the countryside of Mid-Staffordshire and beyond.

Whilst I will never condone drink-driving, most of those who take the risk of getting behind the wheel of a car after a few drinks tend to keep a low profile, drive to the speed limit or below, and just let you overtake them when a safe opportunity arises...

I was given a job on Saturday night to pick up an elderly couple from a hotel in a neighbouring town at 11.30 pm. Wishing to be as punctual as possible under these circumstances I put my foot down a bit on the open road - a straight stretch of road nearly a mile long across Cannock Chase with good visibility. I came upon a car travelling at less than 50mph in this 60mph zone and overtook it without incident.

My speed probably nudged the 70 mark before I came upon a second vehicle a couple of hundred yards further up the road, also travelling below 50 mph. There was still enough straight road in front of me and still nothing was coming the other way, so I attempted to overtake this vehicle - a silver R-registration Corsa with blacked-out windows and an oversized tailpipe...

As I accelerated and pulled alongside him I soon became aware that he had also started to accelerate. I quickly realised that I couldn't out-accelerate him, and I could now see the headlamps of an approaching car in the distance. I glanced at my speedometer and its reading was just above 80, so I aborted my overtaking manoeuvre and took my foot off the accelerator with the intention of pulling in behind him. I've met idiots who can't stand being overtaken before, but this particular specimen went one stage further...

Having proved that he could out-accelerate me in his hot hatch, he then attempted to prove that he could out-brake me, and he effectively pinned me in the outside lane in the face of an on-coming vehicle.

At this point I started to panic a little and just stood on my brakes. As my speed dropped to around 30mph we were still neck-and-neck with the oncoming vehicle looming ever closer.

Finally, given that the Skoda Octavia I drive is equipped with disc brakes all round, I managed to out-brake him and pull in behind, with seconds to go before impact with the oncoming vehicle. Once I was safely behind him he sped back up to just under 50 mph.

I waited a few seconds before briefly switching on my main beams in order to see his rear number plate more clearly (it was partly covered in salt from the road). He promptly switched on his rear foglamps before slowing down to 40 mph.

As we entered a 30 mph zone his speed dropped to a little over 20 mph and he began gently weaving slightly across the central white lines.

I finally lost him at the next set of traffic lights, and I was 9 minutes late picking up the elderly couple who were waiting outside in the cold. They were very sympathetic when I told them what had happened.

I want to report the incident to the police, but as there were no witnesses I guess I'd be wasting my time - and theirs.

I'm aware that in the event of surviving a head-on collision under such circumstances, I'd more-than-likely be charged with reckless driving as my version of events would be highly implausible.

I welcome your comments chaps.

Regards,

Steve.

PS: As a rule I don't overtake vehicles that are already travelling at or above the posted speed limit on single-carriageway roads.

[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Mon 06 December 2004 at 5:58.]

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by John Sheridan

quote:

As for speed bumps, they are a great idea.

never mind the extra pollution they cause.

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by Webke

So its comes down to a matter of saving the environment or human lifes?

I dont need to answer, surely John?

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by Paul Ranson

quote:
Paul -- Libertarians or not the article paints a rather poor picture of these bunch of clowns.

I thought it was a rather typical piece of Guardian lazy journalism. But there you go.

quote:
So its comes down to a matter of saving the environment or human lifes?

Show me that speed bumps directly save human lives.

There are better ways to control traffic than taking drivers attention away from their surroundings and concentrating it on the road right in front of them.

I suppose speed bumps are one of the better arguments for off road vehicles in towns, it's not often you get to exercise your rough terrain capability and here's somebody elses local taxes paying for an offroad course right in the street...

When I had a Caterham I used to presume that the presence of speed bumps meant the locals had no objection to maximum acceleration and noise between 4mph and 30mph between them, otherwise why were they there? Normally one wouldn't cruise quiet streets in 1st gear, but needs must.

Paul

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by John Sheridan

quote:

So its comes down to a matter of saving the environment or human lifes?

oh for fuck's sake are you really that stupid?

quote:

When I had a Caterham I used to presume that the presence of speed bumps meant the locals had no objection to maximum acceleration and noise between 4mph and 30mph between them

perfect for practicing your double shuffling down the box as well

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by matthewr

"I thought it was a rather typical piece of Guardian lazy journalism"

I'm not sure where or why the Gaurdian deserves a reputation for "lazy journalism" but the article contained some information and allegations about the ABD that might well cause one to question its competancy and motive.

"When I had a Caterham I used to presume that the presence of speed bumps meant the locals had no objection to maximum acceleration and noise between 4mph and 30mph between them"

I guess in return the locals probably presumed you were about 18 and a bit of an idiot.

Matthew

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by Steve Toy

quote:
I read stuff on their site (and not threatened anyone with death) I am concerned by your comments though, I wasn’t aware of your claims - I would be interested to know about the death threats, less so re the right wing claims good on them if that’s the case.

I read about such death threats about a year ago. It wasn't in the Guardian that I read about them but on ABD's own website.

They didn't deny the existence of such threats, they simply distanced themselves from them on the basis that they believe in democracy, freedom of expression and constructive debate etc.

Just because a football club has a handful of followers who are hooligans doesn't make that football club a criminal organisation.

The death threats may have come from supporters of the ABD's policies. This doesn't mean that the ABD was behind such threats.

I don't think we have any more reason to mistrust an organisation like the ABD than we have to mistrust the government.

The government probably manipulates statistics to tally with its own predetermined conclusions more than any other organisation.

Grouping categories of accidents that clearly have no relation to excess speed (either within the posted limit or not) under accidents caused by exceeding speed limits - in order to bump up the total to one third is a case in point.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Thu 09 December 2004 at 2:29.]

Posted on: 08 December 2004 by Steve Toy

Talking of idiots...

quote:
I guess in return the locals probably presumed you were about 18 and a bit of an idiot.

The alternative would be to maintain a constant speed of 4mph over and between the humps.

At least that way we are not paying the wages of the guy walking in front of the car with his red flag (with a rose emblem in the middle of it.)

Regards,

Steve.

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by John Sheridan

quote:

I read about such death threats about a year ago. It wasn't in the Guardian that I read about them but on ABD's own website

it also mentions the threats were made on an internet forum.
Are Naim a bunch of racist thugs because some have posted such comments on this forum in the past? If someone got worked up and suggested that we should go out and start lynching bose employees for making duff equipment, would that make Naim guilty of being murderers?
Perhaps it's just convenient (and lazy) for the Guardian to suggest this because the ABD's agenda doesn't fit with their own (or the government's). I note they've taken the same approach to others who have exposed the government's "speed kills" lies.

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Brian OReilly

quote:
Originally posted by Martin D:
Matthew
I read stuff on their site (and not threatened anyone with death) I am concerned by your comments though, I wasn’t aware of your claims - I would be interested to know about the death threats, less so re the right wing claims good on them if that’s the case.
Martin

Martin/Matthew,

just a quick reply to the "death threat" saga. It was a response on a forum, just like this one, and could be considered "one legged iranian/stallionesque" in its seriousness. The recipient was Mary XXXX from the organisation "Brake" I think. It reflects negatively on Brake that they sought to make political capital from what was a stupid remark between forum members. The police investigated the claim and dismissed it. Honestly, it was literally nothing more than that. I was sorry to see The Guardian give it credence.

Re. the ABD. I think they are as extreme as Transport 2000. Both organisations need to be viewed with a little suspicion.

Brian OReilly

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Nime

I hadn't realised that we had children on the Naim forum until I read this thread. I shall check the driver of the next Caterham I see much more carefully.

But now I think about it. I havent seen a Caterham over here. Just the odd Morgan. Which doesn't count.

I think I should mention that the Danes design excellent speed bumps. They can be safely negotiated by real vehicles at the indicated speed limit. Any higher speed and the car does a complete backward somersault. Usually ending up on the roof. (if any)

God I suddenly miss my roll cage, bucket seats and 6 point harnesses. Those speed bumps would be a real challenge with 3 inches of ground clearance and no suspension travel.

There's a school right next door to the nearest main road speed bump. But it's now rated as a hazardous area. All those mobile phones crammed into such a small space and a mast in the school yard? Can't be healthy for passing drivers in open-topped cars. Well can it?

Nime

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by matthewr

Brian,

Transport 2000 are a credible and serious organistaion with some 30 years of active campaigning and advocacy behind them. Although many disagree with their some of thier views, they are highly respected organisation (at least amongst the journalists and policy people I have spoken to about them).

The ABD are a small fringe group who have managed a relatively high media profile in the last couple of years and about whom there are questions concerning their credibility and competancy. (I must say they rather remind me of the Fathers for Justice lot).

There really is no comparison between the two.

Matthew

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by andy c

quote:
I note they've taken the same approach to others who have exposed the government's "speed kills" lies.

Speed does kill. It's a fact. But you do need to bolt onto that comment innappropriate speed for the given conditions and circumstances.

But also other factors kill, like; pedestrian error, distraction from the core driving skills by passengers/stereo/phone, not driving with correct regard to the road and weather conditions etc etc.

There are three ways to deal with bad driving: education, prevention and enforcement.

Educate the driver to the implications and consequences of his/her actions by both good practice at driving methods, and make them more aware of the potential dire consequences of having a disregard for everyone else on the road other than themselves i.e. stop being selfish!

Prevention: engineer in measures to slow cars down - this is done by councils in accident hot spots. But also consider the use of recorder boxes in vehicles that can be accessed by agencies after crashes to actually confirm indipendantly driver behaviour prior to said crash.

Enforcement: speaks for itself really.

andy c!

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Steve G

Believe it or not there is actually some visible traffic policing going on outside my office at the moment. There is a traffic car parked up in a very dubious position on the pavement (plod too lazy to walk the 10 yards from the nearby car-park I presume) while two traffic plod are observing cars stopping at a set of traffic lights.

They don't have a speed camera so I think they're either looking for out of date tax discs or drivers using mobile phones. I saw another traffic car doing something similar on another nearby road a few days back, and I think that was the first time I'd seen a traffic car in the area in quite a while.

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by blythe

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Toy:
Blythe,

Good post.

I've had no advanced driver training as such, just plenty of experience and a willingness to learn from past mistakes. I learnt something from Mr Chavscum Saturday night - go out and get a more powerful car

I would, however, be interested in the advanced driving course outlined on another thread here.

No matter how good you think you already are there is always room for improvement.

Regards,

Steve.

Spot on - there is always room for improvement and I would thoroughly recomend the Institue of Advanced Motorists test (IAM) which I took a few years ago, basically to try and minimise my risk whilst riding my motorbike.
It certainly opened my eyes to many dangers and good practices to adopt.
Contrary to popular beief, it's not all about cloth capped gents driving their 30 year old Vauxhall Viva's............
Certainly on the motorbike course, I came across some of the fastest, safest riders I've ever seen. On the twisty bits, postition, forward observation, planning, using the width of the road, looking over hedges to see where the up-coming road goes etc. makes a good rider able to outride a "fast" rider perfectly safely.

Regarding motorway speeding/accidents - if the limit were 80mph in the UK, I wouldn't have a problem with that. If it were 90 mph, I wouldn't have a problem. IF only people would keep a safe distance from the car in front.
How many times do you see a car or lorry driving at, near or over the legal limit (for their respective class) with bearly a cars length between them and the vehical in front.
Lorries in particular are driving blind, relying on the reactions and attention of the lorry in front. If the lorry in front happens to suddenly brake (because he's not been paying attention to the road ahead - not just the vehical immediately in front - the one behind WILL hit them.
In the wet, your stopping distance is effectively doubled, but how many people still drive one or two car lengths behind the one in front?
Speed per se doesn't kill, but innappropriate speeding does.
The DOT test should include motorway driving and keeping your distance/looking well ahead, should be stressed as much as if not more than speeding IMO.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Steve Toy

Another good post blythe.

Regards,

Steve.

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by blythe

SPEED BUMPS
Mmmmm, I hate them!
I used to drive a "hard" sports car with low ground clearance, speed bumps had to be negotiated at about 2 MPH, then as others have written, the neighbours then had the noise of me accelerating back to 20-30MPH before squeeling brakes slowed me back to 2 MPH for the next one. So, extra noise and extra pollution. Even more so with every lorry passing over the bumps;- if they don't slow, the crash of metal panels makes even more noise and their brakes (often air brakes) and engines make a heck of a row.
Even in my "softer" sports car, speed bumps even taken slowly can cause the car to bottom out, either on the front spoiler/valance or mid-way under the car.
On a motorbike, if you happened to not see the speed bump (some look just like painted lines and are not too obvious) you could easily be thrown off.
Instead, in school areas, they should simply put speed cameras up. If anyone dares to speed in a school area, shopping area, area with lots of junctions, narrow roads with cars parked both sides etc. etc. they DESERVE to get a ticket before they kill someone.

All schools could be covered by removing all the cameras currently installed as revenue earners (ones NOT in accident black-spots) and placing them outside the schools.

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by blythe

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Toy:
Another good post blythe.

Regards,

Steve.

Thanks Steve :-)
Why are we both sitting on here at 3.30pm when maybe we should be working?????????

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Bruce Woodhouse

How many have done the IAM test?

I'm one

Bruce

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Steve Toy

quote:
Why are we both sitting on here at 3.30pm when maybe we should be working?????????

I'm not out on the roads until 6.

ITD: Il Divo...

Actually, I'm going for a quick walk round the corner to my acountants with a floppy disc containing my spreadsheets. It's that time of year again.

Regards,

Steve.

PS: Seeing as you live near me, here is the registration no. of a vehicle you should NEVER attempt to overtake, no matter how slowly it's going: R292 EGA.

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by John Sheridan

I'm surprised that nobody's pointed out the biggest problem with speed humps and other traffic calming measures - it slows down emergency services vehicles. I don't know about you but if I'm ever in need of an ambulance I don't really want them taking an extra 5-10 minutes getting to me because they have to negotiate all sorts of obstacles.

quote:

How many have done the IAM test?

I was graded as RosPA bronze on my last course - two main reasons - not using push-pull steering and because I don't brake then change gears (or should I say didn't ?) as per the system.
Now working on that but it's not exactly easy with lots of traffic. For example, coming up to a roundabout you're supposed to brake to the appropriate speed, then either change gears to drive through or come to a stop. No probs on large roundabouts with plenty of visibility in all directions but when there's lots of traffic or some idiot town planner has decided to grow bushes all over the place, I find that I'm hovering on the brakes until I can see that it's ok to drive through but by that time I already need to be in the correct gear to accelerate through (not forgetting to double declutch on the downshift). Not sure how I can do this without shifting while braking. Any suggestions anyone?

[This message was edited by John Sheridan on Thu 09 December 2004 at 19:54.]

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Martin D

www.safespeed.org.uk/againsthumps.doc
and for matthew, those deadly abd people:
http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_humps.htm

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Paul Ranson

quote:
Transport 2000 are a credible and serious organistaion with some 30 years of active campaigning and advocacy behind them.

They're not especially 'credible' although I'm sure they take themselves seriously. Transport2000 are extremists, the ABD are actually mainstream. Unless you're an Islington Green of course.

Paul

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by Paul Ranson

quote:
not using push-pull steering and because I don't brake then change gears (or should I say didn't ?) as per the system.

Do they explain why 'push-pull steering' and changing down while still braking are dangerous? ISTM that both deprecated practices are essential to smooth driving.

Paul

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by andy c

Paul and John,
you should not use the engine to brake the car, other than using 'acceleration sense', which is the ability of the driver to vary the road speed of the vehicle by accurate use of the accelerator to meet varying road and traffic conditions (I think thats the definition I had to learn?!? it was a long time ago)e.g. on a motorway when you eas off the accelerator when in a line of traffic, rather than startling the vehicle behind by using brakes.

The brakes are designed to slow the car, so Roadcraft say to use them (I am not being sarky here either). The use of brakes to get the vehicle to the speed needed, on the approach to the hazard, is intended to get the vehicle to the required speed, so as to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear regardless of what is in front of you.

Hence the whole thing gets messed up when I leave a set distance in front of me, only for some dufus to take up the gap. I then back off the pace to get the safe gap again, and someone else takes up the gap, as well as the 2nd dufus behind me who is up my arse as he/she does not think I am making enough progress.

The one thing that people underestmate with all this is, when doing an advanced driving course, it gives you the benefit with regard to increased powers of observation. You seem to look further in front, giving you the ability to react smoother as you know to a certain degree what the car in front of you is going to do.

sorry if I have not explained this properly,
regards,

andy c!

Posted on: 09 December 2004 by John Sheridan

quote:

Do they explain why 'push-pull steering' and changing down while still braking are dangerous? ISTM that both deprecated practices are essential to smooth driving.

they want you to use push-pull so that your hands are always on the correct side of the wheel.
Both hands on the wheel while braking so that you have full control of the car should you need it, only then making one gear change (and only one gear change) to the correct gear thus reducing wear on the gearbox. Obviously this is not the fastest way of braking/cornering but it's not meant to be as you're not on a racetrack.

Andy, how do you approach a busy roundabout with limited visibility?