Bullying
Posted by: cunningplan on 03 November 2004
Over the past few months my 10 yr old daughter has been teased and bullied at the local village school.
She is quite a sensitive child who does take things to heart, and finds it hard when kids are mean to her. We've tried to explain that other kids don't always mean what they say and can be friends again very quickly.
Anyway the school has been informed of a little group of kids, two boys and two girls (9 & 10 yr olds) who find picking on my daughter fair game.
Mrs CP who is far more diplomatic than I am has spoken to the class teacher and headmistress about what's going on. Mainly because our daughter is inconsolable most evenings and not wanting to go to school.
This seemed to improve for a couple of weeks after the teacher did a few lessons on bullying without being specific about my daughter, or the kids involved. Then it all started again this week mainly with the boys deciding that my daughter was fair game once more.
Since September she has wanted her little bit of independence by walking to and from school, but since Monday she now wants me or her mum to take her, and pick her up. We decided against that, but I decided to follow her home from school at a distance this evening so I could see first hand the sort of teasing and bullying that was going on.
What I witnessed tonight, sent me into a massive rage, two of the THUGS!! sorry boys started the name calling and teasing. That wasn't sufficient because she ignored them, they decided that a physical assault was far more fun and entertaining. This is where I went absolutely ballistic. I sprinted a good 50 yards (not bad for a 47 yr old) and dealt with it very swiftly.
I have to say that after my verbal tirade on the Thugs! sorry boys, they looked rather shaken and pale, horrified and suprised would be an understatement. I don't know if my reaction was an overreaction, or perhaps any of you guys with kids would have dealt with things differently.
All I can say is that I will protect my daughter with my life, and will certainly not tolerate her being assaulted especially by boys. The next step is to inform the school tomorrow and hopefully get some sort of plan and conclusion to the whole sorry episode
Regards and Rant Over!
Clive
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Steve Toy
1 in 3 schools now adopts a no-blame policy to bullying, the ideological basis of which being that all children are angels to be "killed with kindness."
The ideology is completely flawed and I urge all parents to boycott such schools.
I believe that you have the moral right to defend your child,but beware of the probability that the bullies' parents think their offspring can do no wrong, and may do one of the following:
1) Punch your lights out - thugs breed thugs.
2) Press criminal charges against you.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by 7V
Hats off to you Clive. Bullying is horrendous and makes me extremely angry. I hope that your tirade has stopped it. Hopefully, in future just the sight of you will put the fear of God into the little thugs.
I don't know if it helps but the latest research reveals that pre-adolescent bullying is far less damaging than bullying that takes place during adolescence. Now is the time to ensure it stops.
Also, may I recommend the non-aggressive but highly effective philosophy of Aikido, as taught by the Ki Federation of Great Britain? They're lovely people and their HQ is in Mark, Somerset. I'm sure that they will have a club in your area which might suit your daughter (and your wife and yourself).
Ki Federation of Great BritainI must admit that I am a practitioner of Ki Aikido and have found it highly effective.
Steve M
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by cunningplan
I have to say I was extremely careful when I confronted these little sods. I didn't lay a hand on them, although I was tempted, and I didn't use any foul language, and I again I was tempted.
It's a sorry world we live in if we can get into trouble for defending our kids.
Regards
Clive
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Nick_S
I suggest that the physical assault on your daughter takes the bullying to an altogether more serious level. Approaching the headteacher directly and possibly the police may bring about a more thorough response by the school.
Nick
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by cunningplan
7V said
quote:
Hats off to you Clive. Bullying is horrendous and makes me extremely angry. I hope that your tirade has stopped it. Hopefully, in future just the sight of you will put the fear of God into the little thugs.
I don't know if it helps but the latest research reveals that pre-adolescent bullying is far less damaging than bullying that takes place during adolescence. Now is the time to ensure it stops.
Also, may I recommend the non-aggressive but highly effective philosophy of Aikido, as taught by the Ki Federation of Great Britain? They're lovely people and their HQ is in Mark, Somerset. I'm sure that they will have a club in your area which might suit your daughter (and your wife and yourself).
Ki Federation of Great Britain
I must admit that I am a practitioner of Ki Aikido and have found it highly effective.
Steve M
Thanks Steve for your support and
the other Steve and Tom. My daughter does take Tae Kwon Do at the village hall and will be going tonight like she's been going for the past 3 months.
It has giving her confidence, but she needs a bit more time there to become totally confident, but she's heading in the right direction.
I used to do Aikido in my younger days and got up to green belt standard. I think I'll rest on my laurels for now. I used to end up with lots of dislocations and sprains, my allergy to pain has increased a lot since then so I think i'll settle for the quiet life
Regards
Clive
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Rzme0
Hi Clive
Like Tom - my hat goes off to you. I have needed to do the same in the past with kids of the same age.
After a similar incident there was the descent of the red mists and during my tirade toward the little s***s a voice in my head kept reminding me "don't touch them, don't swear at them, don't threaten them physically". I gave them the usual bollocks about knowing their folks, knowing where they lived etc and gave them two options or I'd make a complaint to the police. I was lucky in that I had a number of witnesses to the whole thing who were prepared to back me up.
The options were: tell their parents what they'd been up to and bring them to meet me at the same spot the following day to discuss the matter in public with me and a member of the school staff; or meet me and my kid at the same spot the following day to apologize to her for what they had done, in front of the other kids and parents who witnessed the incident. I told them to think about it over night and I'd see them the next day.
I made sure I had plenty of support ready in the background the following day but I was pleased to be confronted by two contrite and shaken little boys who made manful apologies without their folks in attendance. Apologies were accepted and the matter was closed.
I really hope you get a similar result and the issue resolved and your wee lass gets her confidence back.
best wishes
Ross
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Alex S.
Clive, as someone with 3 small girls I just want to offer my support. To be honest, I think you acted with commendable and sensible restraint; I probably would have beat the shit out of them regardless of the consequences. I would explain carefully to the school that they have a duty of care and take it from there. Will your daughter be soon leaving for a different school to the bullies?
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Rasher
Clive
Your daughter has my deepest sympathy. This hasn't happened to my daughter yet, but I live in fear of it. There isn't any point pretending that you could have acted any differently in the heat of the moment and I admire the way you managed to handle yourself - I only hope I can do the same if it ever happens.
My brother in law had a similar experience.
(This is not a recommended course of action BTW). He found out where the bullies lived, and when the next bout happened he confronted the kids and threatened them that if his girl was bullied again, he would go to their house and bully their parents every day until it stopped. He is a big bloke and would frighten an adult, let alone a kid and would have carried it through as well. It stopped instantly. They were very frightened by the prospect because of the usual unfortunate background for bullies in that they are probably bullied by their parents anyway and live terrified home lives. But the bottom line is that you have to defend your own first and foremost, and be sympathetic to the bullies for their upbringing after that.
It isn't an easy one, and it hurts. I wish you a good outcome. You must be careful to explain the whole thing to your daughter so she fully understands that this isn't a personal thing - if it wasn't her it would be someone else. She mustn't think that this is about her.
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by cunningplan:
...My daughter does take Tae Kwon Do at the village hall and will be going tonight like she's been going for the past 3 months.
It has giving her confidence, but she needs a bit more time there to become totally confident, but she's heading in the right direction.
I used to do Aikido in my younger days and got up to green belt standard. I think I'll rest on my laurels for now. I used to end up with lots of dislocations and sprains, my allergy to pain has increased a lot since then so I think i'll settle for the quiet life
Tae Kwon Do will certainly give your daughter confidence if she enjoys it enough to keep going. As you say, it does take time. My nephew does Tae Kwon Do and it has helped him greatly. With Ki Aikido, your daughter is just about at the borderline age. I used to (attempt to) teach 7 to 10 year olds and it was very difficult. Younger children are probably better off with Tae Kwon Do, providing the teacher's 'ok'.
For the record, there are very few injuries in the Ki Fed and I haven't had any serious injuries (dislocations, breaks or worse) in my classes in over 20 years of teaching. It just takes some awareness. Also, not allowing beginners to practise forward rolls for the first few months helps.
I really hope that the situation resolves itself. Please keep us informed.
Steve M
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by long-time-dead
A similar thing happened to my daughter when she was 8 years old. I discovered I could not do anything about it whilst she was at school despite my concerns to the Headmaster. She was not subject to physical abuse so it was therefore very difficult to address by the teachers as the incidents were always outwith earshot and therefore denied.
One evening, she came in crying. I asked what had happened and she told me that one of the lads had thrown stones at her and then punched her when she tried to defend herself.
I stopped it immediately by driving to the local police station with my daughter. They very carefully listened to her after I had fully explained the situation privately and then allowed me to make a formal complaint. I asked for three copies of the complaint form to be provided to me.
Drove back, parked the car and went to the boy's door. Knocked on the door and was met by the father. No aggression needed - I simply told him what his son had done and had been doing, told him I was sick of it and I had reported the matter to the Police and gave him a copy of the complaint form. Told him I would keep doing this as the Children's Panel would automatically be informed of the complaints and would then act accordingly. Scared him shitless. He had no answer to the fact and the action - no threats, promises or false words from me, just the end-game being played before he knew he was playing.
Provided a copy of the complaint to the headmaster for record and he spoke with the boy about the situation.
The taunting and bullying stopped immediately.
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by MichaelC
Clive
I don't know what to say. Well played and I hope your daughter is ok. This is something I am dreading for surely one day my daughter and son may face this problem.
I will imprint Long Time Dead's comments in my mind for future reference should my worst fears come to be.
I can't help think that, sadly, in this society by taking any form of action (even carefully avoiding laying a finger on the shits let alon using threatening language) will result in action being taken ... we live in a bad world.
Mike
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by JonR
As a victim myself of bullying at school for several years I take an interest in threads like this and applaud you for the actions you have taken to resolve what must have been some very traumatic ordeals for your kids.
One question about long-time-dead's post - he mentions a 'Children's Panel'. I would imagine that living in Scotland he enjoys a different educational set-up compared to England & Wales. Would any of you English-based parents get the same sort of support as L-T-D did?
jon
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by long-time-dead
Can't say for England and the rest of the UK but here is a link for the Children's Panel Website in Scotland.
Children's PanelPosted on: 03 November 2004 by Geoff P
Another frightening thing was that we almost had a government passing a law forbidding parents to lay hands on their recalcitrant offspring the other day.
I am not trying to go on about the "good old days here" but when I was a kid the local bobby patrolling on foot would be quite likely to clip you across the ear for bad behaviour if he witnessed any. There was also no question of anybody's kids complaing to their parents about that sort of treatment. That would have brought forth appropriate further punishment.
I know this leads us into the problem area of child abuse as opposed to normal firm management of bad behaviour, but the pendulum has swung completely the opposite way and I am saddened and frightened by the growing effects. Kids stabbing other kids in school playgrounds, and teachers aswell for god sake.
I sympathise greatly with todays parents. I don't know how I would have coped if my kids were 10 years old now ( instead of 30)
regards
GEOFF
"Just trying to make a NAIM for myself"
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by long-time-dead
I think Billy Connelly summed the "old-school" parental discipline perfectly :
"I'll take my hand off your face...." It was the high-speed application that caused the pain.
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Rasher
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Another frightening thing was that we almost had a government passing a law forbidding parents to lay hands on their recalcitrant offspring the other day.
But I feel that this is where it starts - with violent and cruel parents. This is the background that makes these poor kids become bullies - they have to take it out on someone else. Unfortunately, just stopping the parents beating the kids isn't the same as giving them a loving home.
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Bob McC
Clive
You've a pm
Bob
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Geoff P
quote:
But I feel that this is where it starts - with violent and cruel parents
Rasher
that's why I said:
quote:
I know this leads us into the problem area of child abuse as opposed to normal firm management of bad behaviour,
"Just trying to make a NAIM for myself"
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Martin Payne
I sympathise with the stories reported here.
My parents moved house to get me into a different school to stop this sort of thing happening to me at a young age.
I'm damned grateful to them for it, too.
I'm not suggesting that's the solution in the cases above, but it was the
very expensive one they chose.
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
Another frightening thing was that we almost had a government passing a law forbidding parents to lay hands on their recalcitrant offspring the other day.
I know this leads us into the problem area of child abuse as opposed to normal firm management of bad behaviour, but the pendulum has swung completely the opposite way and I am saddened and frightened by the growing effects. Kids stabbing other kids in school playgrounds, and teachers aswell for god sake.
I sympathise greatly with todays parents. I don't know how I would have coped if my kids were 10 years old now ( instead of 30)
I am not a parent myself.
However, I don't understand how parents are supposed to instill reasonable behaviour in their children in the current environment.
In my very non-expert opinion, ISTM that a lot of children learn how to behave by "trying it on". If they get away with it, then it's OK, and they can do it again & again. Question is: does a mild rebuke, repeated 37 times, constitute "getting away with it". I reckon it does.
There must be some way to discriminate between appropriate (gentle!) chastisement and anything likely to cause more than the slightest fleeting effect.
BTW, what are the [legal] responsibilites of parents in regard to the behaviour of their children?
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by Steve Toy
Duty of care in loco parentis quote:
BTW, what are the [legal] responsibilites of parents in regard to the behaviour of their children?
From the moment your child leaves the threshold of your home to go to school (without your direct supervision along the way) to the moment they arrive back home at the end of the school day, the school is legally responsible for the welfare and behaviour of your child, and not his/her parents.
If the school in any way fails in its duty of care you may hold them to account.
I'd advise against tackling the parents of other children bullying yours directly unless you know them personally or you are built like a brick shithouse...
It would be better to contact the head if your child is at a primary school and/or the bullies belong to another year/form group, or your child's form tutor if your child attends a secondary school and if the bullies are in the same form group.
Regards,
Steve.
[This message was edited by Steve Toy on Thu 04 November 2004 at 3:31.]
Posted on: 03 November 2004 by long-time-dead
Steve
Up here, the responsibility of the school ceases at the school gate. It is the responsibility of the parent or guardian to ensure safe passage. That is why there is no routine school bus service and so many parents collect their kids from school. It is through necessity, not choice.
Looking after children in this day and age is harder than years ago. My parents see this and freely admit this.
Children today are prisoners of a democratic free society that allows hatred and violence to go unchecked. This is one of the reasons that the crimes often involve weapons.
Posted on: 04 November 2004 by Rasher
quote:
Originally posted by Geoff P:
quote:
But I feel that this is where it starts - with violent and cruel parents
Rasher
that's why I said:
quote:
I know this leads us into the problem area of child abuse as opposed to normal firm management of bad behaviour,
Sure - I took what you said as meaning that Child Management could be called Child Abuse. ie. the smacking thing.
Posted on: 04 November 2004 by cunningplan
Quick update ont the current state of play. I walked my daughter to school this morning and I will also be picking her up from now on.
I spoke to her class teacher and the headmistress with regard to what happened yesterday. They seemed very shocked and dismayed, and immediately set the ball rolling by stating they would be speaking directly to the boys, and organising a meeting with their parents over the next couple of days.
My demands were polite and firm in that I wanted the bullying to stop, and an apology to me and the wife and more importantly my daughter from the boys concerned.
I don't know how effective any of this is going to be, but we don't want to stand by and let our daughter become a victim without trying to do something positive.
After some intense soul searching last night we have decided to move our daughter after Christmas to a different school, with the probability of paying for a private education for her.
We're not naive enough to believe that bullying doesn't go on in these schools, but hopefully they would take a more pro-active approach towards it, we'll just have to see what each prospectus states about the problem. We do have four of these schools to choose from in the area.
I will update you guys on the progress, and thanks to all of you for your support in this difficult time for me and my family.
Regards
Clive
Posted on: 04 November 2004 by Hawk
CP,a very topicall post and i sincerely hope that it all works out for you and more importantly your daughter.
Just yesterday i was confronted with the following situation...
My little four and a half year old came home from school in floods of tears and it transpired that a small group of boys had been taunting her about her mum. If i can explain, sadly my wife has multiple sclerosis and has great difficulty in walking hence often has to rely on using an electric scooter...
Those of you with kids of that age will appreciate that getting info out of her is hard work, so im yet to find out what they actually said... but she asked me why mummy isnt normal? and wants me to walk her to school instead...
I can appreciate that at this age its a case of almost innocent cruelty as id like to think that they truely couldnt understand the sadness it has caused to my little girl, and of course to my wife who is faced with a little girl who is too scared and upset to let mummy take her to school...
I have spoken to the headmasters secretary this morning and told then about what has happened. So im now sitting here at work trying to wind my neck in and not do something ill regret later.. I guess ive got to trust the school after all they should be the experts??? I for one have no idea what else to do...
Posted on: 04 November 2004 by Robbie
Steve,
It's quite obvious from your post that you don't have any children. I've got two daughters and if anybody should ever touch them in any way I don't like.... EDIT Responsibility of the school or not!
Clive, you have my deepest sympathy and I hope your daughter is feeling well by the support of her parents.
Bestest,
Rob.
