Che Guevara

(And yes I know he's been accused of some awful things)

Today I saw "The Motorcycle Diaries". A few fine moments, but mediocre overall (due to some over the top dialogue and a questionable purpose)

Sorry, I have to say - what rot! Along with Almodovar, Walter Salles is the best director currently working in the world, and as such his films are a perfect antidote to the visually illiterate, infantile rot like "Star Wars", "Lord Of The Rings" etc ad nauseam which passes for cinema these days.

He has a tendency toward sentimentality (esp in "Centro do Brasil") but "Diaries" is a wonderfully shot, gorgeously composed, fabulously well-written and superbly-acted. It is also one of the most touching and beautifully rendered explorations of male friendship I have ever seen.

I would be interested to know what this "questionable purpose" you ascribe to the film is.

Kevin (BBC Radio 4)

Loved his T shirts.

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his films are a perfect antidote to the visually illiterate, infantile rot like "Star Wars", "Lord Of The Rings" etc ad nauseam which passes for cinema these days.

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OoooH people liking populist films and music lets put them against the wall.

Coooeeee its called entertainment.

How dare any one accuse YOUR taste of being mediocre.


Howard

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Originally posted by BigH47:
Loved his T shirts.

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his films are a perfect antidote to the visually illiterate, infantile rot like "Star Wars", "Lord Of The Rings" etc ad nauseam which passes for cinema these days.

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OoooH people liking populist films and music lets put them against the wall.

Coooeeee its called entertainment.

How dare any one accuse YOUR taste of being mediocre.


Howard

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Howard? Are you OK there?

People can describe my taste as exquisite, mediocre or dodgy, I'm really not bothered. Howwever, you seem to be suffering from that awful inverted snobbery that disguises itself as populism and/or anti-elitism.

You obviously see me as some sort of haughty arty type who only watches Mizoguchi movies or gloomy Hungarian subtitled arthouse fare. While my favourite director is Jean Renoir, and I enjoy arty films from the likes of Sergo Paradjanov, Carl Dreyer, Igmar Bergman and Michael Powell, I'm a huge fan of classic mainstream Hollywood (such as "Casablanca" and the 1938 "Adventures Of Robin Hood" - two of the most popular movies ever made); I like Orson Welles, Michael Mann and Howard Hawks, and enjoy movies with Clark Gable and John Wayne and Robert De Niro in them; I adore "Carry On"s and kung-fu movies, and I'm pretty partial to the odd (sometimes mindless) blockbuster like "Jurassic Park" or "Deep Blue Sea".

AFAIC, "LoTR" and "SW" can be as popular as they want, but the quality of a movie - or anything else - is not dependent on how popular it is. But if you talk to anyone who knows a bit about the movies, they will rue that day in 1977 when "Star Wars" came out.

It is thanks to Lucas' franchise that we have to endure a slew of mediocre, merchandise-driven "blockbusters" every Summer.

I'm just sorry people are missing out. There are thousands of films out there, a huge proportion of which are infinitely better than Lucas' infantile space western franchise and Peter Jackson's CGI-dominated fantasy trilogy. Both are pretty much a bunch of special effects and little else. And they have infaliiised audiences perceptions of what movies can really do.

What's wrong with saying that?


Kevin (Led Zeppelin: In Through The Out Door)

I haven't seen this yet, but understand that it is beautifully shot and a wonderful movie. I just hope it isn't another JFK and people believe the content to be factual history!
He fought for Castro - he fought against Castro - he fought for whoever paid his wages.
Find a parallel with todays middle-east & ponder on that for a while.
But as I said - I've yet to see it.

Kevin-W,

What I meant by "questionable purpose" is the movie barely went anywhere from start to finish, didn't go beyond what we know by default, and there were numerous repeated incidents where I asked myself- "why?" (see: motorcycle crashes) The cutesy funnyman role of Alberto got old very quickly. WRT over the top dialogue, you could almost predict the statements on society young Che would make on occassion, seemingly following pauses to underscore the commentary ("All the injustices!").

The Village Voice said it perfectly:

"The Motorcycle Diaries is lovely to look at but insipid, a lavishly illustrated Rough Guide to white liberal self-affirmation. When Ernesto, weakened by frequent, harrowing asthma attacks, struggles to swim across the Amazon to spend his 24th birthday with patients at the San Pablo leper colony, the act crystallizes Salles's film: a well-meaning but ostentatious display of solidarity with a vaguely defined ideal, not entirely unlike making the scene in your Che Guevara tank top."

There are some positives- the scenery is indeed gorgeous, the whole idea of the film is a romantic one, and it has me longing to revisit South America ASAP. It's just that as a piece of art it's blah.

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Originally posted by Nick Lees:

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Originally posted by Kevin-W:
But if you talk to anyone who knows a bit about the movies, they will rue that day in 1977 when "Star Wars" came out.

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Kevin,

Whilst there are many things in your post that are certainly worthy (e.g. there are without doubt many films out there that people miss out on because they're not "blockbusters"), this bit is a complete crock. It's analagous to those who'd pour scorn on an Abba song (or whatever) because it's not clever like Beethoven's 9th.

nick.lees at btinternet.com

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Nick

I think you are wrong. One needs benchmarks, otherwise we just get down to people arguing about each other's taste. To deny that these benchmarks exist, or to say that they are unecessary or even a bad thing, is philistine and cowardly - just the sort of thing Blair would say, in fact.

Are you suggesting that it cannot be said that Michaelangelo's "Last Judgement" is not better than something Rolf Harris just knocked up? Can we not say with any certainty that Proust, Tolsty and Primo Levi are superior as works of literature to Harry Potter, Harold Robbins and Jilly Cooper? Surely "King Lear" is a greater work than "The Mousetrap"?

I grant you that these benchmarks are much more difficult to apply to music, because it is an almost entirely abstract art form which, as Nietzsche used to say, elicits a more "Dionysian" (or purely visceral/emotional) response than theatre, painting, sculpture or literature does.

It is not particularly valid or helpful to compare music from the European concert tradition ("classical") to popular music, as they are entirely diffferent things (it's like comparing a fish to a spinning top), but I think that we can say that, on the whole, the work of JS Bach may provide more sustenance to the soul than the sounds of Westlife, fabulous as they undoubtedly are. It's nothing to do with being clever.

Within the idiom of film, the same thing applies. The masterpiece movies of Renoir, Ray, Welles, Hawkes, Dreyer, Paradjanov, Melville, Clair, Godard, Bergman, Eisenstein, etc are superior to anything Lucas has done (although his best film, "American Graffiti", is a very fine movie indeed).

Even on its own terms, "Star Wars" is a poor movie, with leaden dialogue, characters who achieve the tricky feat of being both wooden AND irritating, and a plot (such as it is) lifted straight from Ford and Kurosawa. Only the effects lift it from being utterly irredeemable, and even those are technically and imaginatively inferior to the effects in another leaden space movie, Kubrick's beautiful but pretentious and inert "2001".

If it weren't for its enormous success, its ubiquity and its baleful influence, it wouldn't even be worth writing about. Suffice to say I've never been able to sit through any of these juvenile merchandise generators in their entirety: the4y're so fucking tedious and really, really pretentious.

Again, it's nothing to do with "Star Wars" bbeing less "clever" than "Songs Of Our Forgotten Ancestors". It's just not a very good movie. There are far better ones around. And what's wrong with pointing that out?

Kevin (Blurt: Poppycock)

PS Ludders - I understand your point, but, being the old sentimentalist I am, I think "Diaries" is good art as it's a fascinating essay on male friendship, and I think the "Village Voice" missed the point there.

Kevin, you're disappointing your fans. Stop now, please....

throb

Blimey! All I said was "Star Wars" was a pile of infantile poop - a statement I stand by...

Where's Ross Blackman when you need him?

Sorry to disappoint, Throb - how have I let you down?

Kevin (some documentary about Hinge & Bracket on BBC Radio 4)

A man who spends his Sunday evenings listening to a Hinge & Bracket documentary should be above trolling.

throb [still disappointed]

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Originally posted by Kevin-W:
I'm just sorry people are missing out. There are thousands of films out there, a huge proportion of which are infinitely better than Lucas' infantile space western franchise and Peter Jackson's CGI-dominated fantasy trilogy. Both are pretty much a bunch of special effects and little else. And they have infaliiised audiences perceptions of what movies can really do.

What's wrong with saying that?

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I watch both types of film. This weekend I saw Code 46 (WinterBottom), Tillsammans and Sky Captain and the world of tomorrow. I watched the Star Wars Trilogy on DVD last week and the (very good IMHO) Motorcycle Diaries.

But that's just me.

Stephen

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One needs benchmarks, otherwise we just get down to people arguing about each other's taste. To deny that these benchmarks exist, or to say that they are unecessary or even a bad thing, is philistine and cowardly - just the sort of thing Blair would say, in fact.

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I agree! And have made this point many times in explaining to people just why Westlife are a load of old cobblers (to be as polite as I possibly can), when compared to say, Abba, in the field of Pop music.

However, to disagree with Kevin for a minute, I liked both Star Wars and the first Lord of the Rings film. Is it perhaps fair to say that you need to apply these benchmarks within certain genres, so as to ensure you are comparing like with like? A Ferrari is better than a Fiat Punto but not if you are measuring it on fuel economy and ease of parking...
Simon

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Even on its own terms, "Star Wars" is a poor movie, with leaden dialogue, characters who achieve the tricky feat of being both wooden AND irritating, and a plot (such as it is) lifted straight from Ford and Kurosawa.

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If I remember correctly, Kurosawa "lifted" his plots from others, most notably western movies and Shakespeare! And (as noted) "his" plots was then copied by others, as Sergio Leone's "Per un pugno di dollari" (A Fistful of Dollars to most of us). So, even the aknowledged masters has don a bit of "lifting" in their time!

And, no, I don't like cultural snobbery.

JohanR