One of my stereo buddies visited my place last night, after an afternoon of audio shopping. I felt that only one or two of the systems that we heard could hold a candle to my CDX/82/Super/250/RoydAlbion, and I was eager to show off my system.
We got to my place at about 6:30pm, and were sitting around for a couple of minutes before going out for supper. I popped on a CD that we had been auditioning all day, and I was disappointed to discover that I didn't much like what I heard. The system sounded small and compressed, and didn't have that dynamic sparkle that I've come to associate with good Naim gear.
I was as if someone replaced my 82/Super with the 32.5/SNAPS from my office. I figured, though, that it was probably bad power around suppertime (when I usually don't listen). So we went out to eat, expecting it to improve when we returned.
It was almost 8:30 when we resumed. Strangely, it was only mildly improved. We went through a few different CDs, each not impressing us in the least. We were half way through the 2nd movement of Mahler's 9th symphony when my friend suddenly looked at me and asked, "Did something just happen there?" I didn't spot it as quick as he did, but we both soon realized that the system was sounding fantastic! Coincidentally it was almost exactly 8:30, so I figured that it was a bunch of office building turning off their lights, etc. Now we were looking forward to an evening of great sounding music.
Unexpectedly, about 40 minutes later the system suddenly shrank again. All of the gains that had appeared at 8:30 were ripped away. Then about 15 minutes later it sounded great again.
It cycled back and forth like this for the next couple of hours, although this pattern was not really consistent. I considered that it might be a fridge, but they don't usually come on for 15 minutes at a time. Other than that, I can't think what might have been cycling in this manner.
I was very frustrated, to say the least. I'm looking forward to getting into my own house, where the basic power is better, and I can run my own dedicated mains circuit. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 25 January 2001 at 18:30.]
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 25 January 2001 at 18:30.]
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Chris Brandon
Mike,
It strikes me as a good idea to have a notepad and pencil handy,and jot the times down,see if a pattern develops.
(But on the other hand,since you're moving house soon...but then again, if it was me,I know full well that I would be busy tracking it down.)
Regards
Chris
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Arye_Gur
I had a problem with the electricity at my appartment and yesterday the electrician replaced the main fuses box and all the fuses and tomorrow he'll fix a separtare spur for the stereo.
When I sit to listen to music at the evening, with the system still connected to the electricity as on the day before, I got a shock - and I mean it. The sound improved so much that it hard to describe. I even started to think that maybe I can skip the separtae spur idea.
I understand that the old fuses had some corossion and the electrician cut the edges of the wires before he reconnected them, but we are tlaking about 220 Hz and 20 - 40 metters of wires maximum, the great effect is a wonder to me.
Now the big question - isn't it a fault of Naim ?
Is this sensitivity to power, we hear about it a lot in this forum, is due to a fault in the engineering ? Is this sensitivity is a must for the equimpment quality ?
I don't know, but I admit that until yesterday I suspected that all those who told about a
phenomenon like Mike's here are in a bad mood or bad psychologic situation or something like that.
Arie
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Mick P
Arie
Its getting to the point where I am tempted to fly to Isreal and dump some cash in your hand just to shut you up.
Until recently your comments seemed valid but recently it has become just one nit picking whinging letter after another.
If Naim is so bad as you think, sell it off, buy something else and hopefully you will have nothing to moan about.
Yours in slight amusement
Mick
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Joe Petrik
Mike,
You've described what's more or less plagued me since about 1989 -- system performance that varies with power quality throughout the day, and, I might add, throughout the week and year. I haven't kept notes, but it seems to be roughly correlated with the number of TV sets switched on in North America. You get noticeable improvements at discrete times (say, 8 p.m., 10 p.m., 12 a.m.), when people switch their tubes off to do something else.
The kicker in all this is that the higher up the Naim range you go, the worse its susceptibility to bad power. I scarcely noticed bad juice with my Nait 2, but I hear it every night with my 102, napsc, Hi-Cap, 250.
The other thing you're possibly noticing is that the Super-Cap goes through phases as it runs in. Jawed claims that 135s do something similar, where their performance waxes and wanes over several weeks. Give the Super-Cap a few more weeks, then see if performance varies.
The other thing I'd recommend is replacing your receptical with a spec-grade Bryant. It's a small but worthwhile improvement. You might also clean the wires and tighten the screws on all of the other recepticals in the circuit -- but only if you know what you're doing. It's not worth dying over.
Joe
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Arye_Gur
Mick,
I don't get it - people are complaining about problems with the sensitivity of Naim to quality of main power supply.
I'd never complained about it.
If this problem occurs many times to many people
in different places who own Naim - what do you suggets ? To ignore it because maybe it will hurt someone in Naim ?
If someone own a stereo system he wants to listen to it when he feels like it and not when the electricity makes it possible. It is a problem and you can't ignore it.
If you think (I don't think so) that I complain a lot about Naim - the fact that I own a naim gear althogh I find faults with it says that to my opinion it is realy a good equipment.
Arie
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Thomas K
My dealer just came round to my house with this letter he got from Naim today:
Dear sirs!
Firstly, we would like to thank you as authorised dealers for years of fruitful cooperation.
We are writing to you today in matter of extreme urgency: It has been disclosed to us by a trustworthy source that one Arie Gur residing in Haifa, Israel, is currently involved in a ploy to undermine the integrity of our firm (“Gur” may not be his real name; our suspicions are further corroborated by the fact that “Arie Gur” is Aramaic for “Foe of the Flat Earth” as we have been able to learn with the help of staff from the British Museum).
An undercover agent has been sent to Gur’s residence to recover all Naim goods previously in his possession. It is imperative that Gur no longer gains access to any Naim products as he is conducting research with aim of substantiating claims that our equipment cannot, after all, perform magic. Needless to say, the disclosure of this highly sensitive information must be avoided at all costs.
Please find enclosed a satellite intelligence image of said perpetrator. Do not under any circumstances let this man enter your premises, let alone test or purchase any Naim equipment.
We thank you for your cooperation in this matter.
Regards
Paul Tucker
Naim Audio Ltd.
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Arye_Gur
Dear Mr Paul Tucker,
In reply to your letter on January, 26.
I was surprised to hear about Mr Arie Gur (it is his name).
Arie Gur is well known in Haifa as a prowd owner of a very expensive active system made by Linn.
I din't know he has an access to Naim forum - if so - his access shold be denied at once !
Regards
Ilan Tamir,
Naim dealer in Haifa, Israel
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Mike Hanson
Joe:
The Super-Cap was purchased used, and it's been powered-up for over a week. Regarding the power-receptacle, I've got a hospitical grade plug in the wall (not sure if it's Bryant or Hubble), with one of Steve K.'s power bars. Therefore, it can't be either of those reasons.
It may be the TVs, but wouldn't that be a cumulative effect (i.e. one TV wouldn't make much difference, but a thousand would be significant)? In this case, the change to "good" or "bad" was like a switch going on and off.
It's somewhat reminiscent of one fellow's thread from the old forum (and briefly on this one) who had the "collapsing" system. He would change something around, it would seem fine, then would suddenly collapse again. I'm not certain how much my sonic differences are similar to his: he was describing the "bad" state as similar to a transistor radio, and I would certainly not go that far.
I'm not too concerned, though, as it's generally OK after 10pm and before 8am, which is when I usually listen. Usually Sundays are good, while most "business hours" are poor. At other times it's a bit of a toss-up. As I mentioned earlier, I'm moving into my house in a few months, and I'm hoping for the best. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 25 January 2001 at 22:14.]
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by Joe Petrik
Mike,
Although the Super-Cap was bought used, I think you're set back to almost zero if it's been unplugged for a while. You might be suffering through its lengthy run-in.
About the receptacle, I've tried several and thought the spec-grade Bryant to be the best. The Hospital-grade Hubbell might do wonders (or conform to certain electrical specs) for heart defribulators, but I don't think they're the best with Naim gear. In fact, I'd take a cheap 89-cent Leviton over a $20 Hubbell. But that doesn't explain the variation over the evening. And the difference between various receptacles isn't that big anyway. It's more a bit a fine tweaking at low cost than anything else.
The other receptacles I was referring to are not the ones in Steve's contraption. They are the ones on the same circuit as your hi-fi. These are the receptacles you might want to service by thoroughly cleaning the live, neutral and ground wires and by tightening the crap out of the screws. The whole circuit is kept live by this parallel wiring through the receptacles, so a good connection at each one makes sense. By the way, this is far more worthwhile doing than getting super receptacles. [Insert ample warnings: Danger, danger. Do not attempt if you're unqualified.]
My buddy has a hypothesis about TVs and power quality. This is at the edge of my understanding, so bear with me if I gloss over the details or get some of the minutiae wrong.
The power grid across Canada and the U.S. is in phase. It has to be because some provinces sell excess power to neighbouring states, so the juice has to be compatible in all ways. But this also means that devices that have their operation synched to the frequency of the AC will be doing their nastiness all at exactly the same moment.
With TVs, I think it's the point at which the electron beam is reset from the bottom of the screen, back up to the top to complete the next scanning cycle. Across North America you have millions of TVs doing this at exactly the same time. That, I think, explains the improvement over the night - as people go to bed, the TVs across the continent and across time zones get switched off. (Incidentally, this might be why the power really sucks during the day. Instead of TV, you have a gazillion computer monitors injecting crap into the mains.)
There's not much I can suggest other than to get a good receptacle, clean the wires and tighten down the screws in the whole circuit [insert warning again], and plug nothing else into it but the hi-fi -- and let the Super-Cap run in fully.
Joe
Posted on: 25 January 2001 by bam
Well, I have read this thread with interest and enjoyment. Now how are we to enjoy a happy-customers, narcissistic love-in with all these fiddly complaints? It's unnerving!
Now look. If your dealer sells you the epitomy of audio engineering and it doesn't like your mains supply then it's your fault for having bought that cheap house. Your Naim has needs too you know. Poor thing. And don't blame the dealer for not pointing this out - how was he/she to know you weren't committed enough to have your own dedicated sub-station. Selfish, selfish, selfish.
BAM 
Chris: where did you get the notion that something that is well designed should be MORE sensitive to external disturbances?
Martin: Just curious if you know: what is it about the new NAP500 design that makes it less sensitive to mains quality?
Posted on: 29 January 2001 by Mike Hanson
Well, I listened to my system from about 4-9pm EST yesterday, which should include a large portion of the Superbowl. With all of those millions of television sets tuned to the action, I was expecting my system to sound awful. Curiously, it was great the entire time, with not a single noticeable "blip" in performance. Therefore, I'm ruling out the possibility of a million synchronized televisions as the cause of my power woes. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 29 January 2001 by Mike Hanson
I'm not really sure how that applies to the power issue.
Regardless, the system was in top form for the entire period, so I'm not convinced that sound of a million TVs syncing on the grid are causing a problem with my stereo.
Now having a TV on the same circuit seems to have a slight effect, but I think that's a different issue. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 29 January 2001 by P
I've read some silly threads on this Forum but this one takes the biscuit!
Mike H - get your ears syringed bud and try to relax a little y'know.
I thought you guys were supposed to be bloody knowledgeable audiophiles!
Hell even my mother used to know that sometimes records sound better than at other times - and that was through a bloody Dynatron over 25 years ago listening to George Shearing!!! (Strolling - BTW - I remember it well)
I'm not stirring this up here - I'm just really disappointed in your lack of tack.
Seriously, seriously disappointed
P
Posted on: 29 January 2001 by Mike Hanson
It's interesting that you mention your mother. Mine had a fridge magnet that read "Life is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved". Even at a young age I knew that sentiment was crap.
If something is observable and the cause is unknown, then it's useful, from both a theoretical and practical perspective, to determine why the exhibited behaviour is present. That's why man invented "Science".
If it werent for science et al., we wouldn't have all these neat toys to play with. Obviously, you're a little too thick to make the connection. Catch you later!
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 29 January 2001 by P
Falling for that old line of insult
Nor will you catch me slagging Naim products on the Naim Forum either.
BTW Mike
You may consider me thick but answer this
Can you string a destrung guitar from scratch to perfect pitch without any aid? Purely by ear?
If you can, then great. You're a muso. Like me.
If you can't - then who's thick when it comes to subjective listening?
P
Posted on: 29 January 2001 by Mike Hanson
I wasn't insulting you. I was simply calling a spade a spade. And your pitch thing is quite a red herring. (Whaddaya know? Two cliches in the same paragraph.
)
Having a good sense helps us to rate stereo gear, but it's certainly not the only tool that's required. I don't think perfect pitch would help any more than a good sense of pitch. Although I don't have perfect pitch myself, but I am a musician with a very good ear.
There are many "measurements" that must be "taken": pitch, PRaT, tonal accuracy, details in the mix, musical lines, etc. As you can see, discerning pitch variations is only one piece of the puzzle. Toodles.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
