Top speed

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian OReilly:
If you have any specific criticism of advanced driving theory Steve, let's have it out in the open.

---

On the theory side my main issue with the IAM teachings is the "no brakes" style which they advocate on all types of road. It works well on sweeping roads with clear sightlines (especially in the wet) but it's very ineffective on tighter twisty roads where the only way to make swift & safe progress is using a "point and squirt" style of riding.

All the advanced stuff I've had involvement with has taught sightlines that is a key concept which I would expect that the "all speeding is very dangerous" group are unfamiliar with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rasher:
No Brian, I appreciate the point of the thread, but when we have this sort of thing I think it's going the wrong way:

"I overtook them at 110mph, the blade caught up and overtook me @ 120+ mph doing a wheely, well the gaunlet was thrown, i had to use everylane and the hard shoulder, but caught that git at 135mph. After 10mins of HARD racing may brakes where all but useless.
I turned off into Epping forest the GSXR followed, and i raced behind him through the forest (not really overtaking roads), but i overtook some old vectra to catch upto him, the GSXR realised i was probably going to knock him down and pulled over, and let me pass "

---

The driver involved is obviously a total fucking idiot plus the chap on the GSXR was either not trying or just plain shite.

It's quite regular to encounter arseholes like that when you're out on the bike but fortunately in my experience so far it's always been very easy to leave them far, far behind.

200 mph. Straight down, head first.
Gravity powered, air cooled.

simon

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lo Fi Si:
200 mph. Straight down, head first.
Gravity powered, air cooled.

---

The thought of jumping out of a perfectly serviceable aeroplane scares the shit out of me! I'm not even particularily bothered by heights but the thought of throwing myself out of that door - *shudder*

Not the High st. then is it Rasher ?

How about someone hitting your kid or mine at 30mph on the High St. That OK is it ?

The limits are arbitrary. The safe speed depends on the conditions, no ifs, no buts. You will habitually hear those who talk about big speeds on open roads also condemning those who drive at or over the speed limits in urban areas. Drive to the prevailing conditions.

Anticipate. Predict. Plan. Think. Take responsibility for your own actions.

Brian OReilly

quote:

---

I'm convinced that anyone who goes through the IAM course/test will come out a better driver, it's then simply a question of degree. Some will benefit more than others.

---

I couldn't agree more, it's not perfect, but it is useful.

Whilst often mis-interpreted as a rigid structure within which to work, I've always taken the view that the process of creating driving plans is genuinely useful, how one acts upon them, once formed, is open to a bit more interpretation.

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Andy.

quote:

---

Anticipate. Predict. Plan. Think. Take responsibility for your own actions.

---

This is why IMO cars should be completely banned. Most people are incapable of doing all of that, even though most people think they're really good drivers and everybody else is the problem!

-- Ian

I think as 'we' become more and more image conscious, there is a distinct possibility that some of us may overlook things like safety, consideration for others etc etc.
Just a thought.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian OReilly:
How about someone hitting your kid or mine at 30mph on the High St. That OK is it ?

---

So now you, Brian, are completely missing the point.
I'm not condemning clear open motorway stuff, just the ...oh I just can't be bothered..

Curious that both 'Rasher' and Steve G have posted stuff that looks a lot like they don't or don't expect to be able to control themselves on the public road. Doesn't go well with driving slow or fast where calmness is always a virtue.

I have to make a real effort to be calm when I'm in a queue behind someone doing 45 in a 60 slowing to 40 in a 30. And 30 in a 40 if passing a speed camera. And all the overtaking possibilities that would let the queue safely pass are squandered by the cars in front. And the real morons who drive at 55 on a dual carriageway or motorway causing trucks to slowly overtake and generally making the road more dangerous than it need be as traffic bunches behind the rolling roadblock.

Paul

Paul - My account posted on page 3 was:

"135-145 mph
France motorway
GSXR 750 on the way to the Bol D'or race on the south coast
It may not be a particularly high speed for a bike, but it was sustained for for most of the way. Other bikes were overtaking and the tolls were opened for the vast amount of bikes to just pass through, and the cops kept the cars out of our way for us. magic. We got off the ferry at about 10.00am and arrived on the south coast by about 5.30pm. (It was about 1986-7)."

I consider the circumstances were safe as Patrick says. I do understand the point of the thread, but think a there have been a couple of dodgy posts is all.

quote:

---

I overtook them at 110mph, the blade caught up and overtook me @ 120+ mph doing a wheely, well the gaunlet was thrown, i had to use everylane and the hard shoulder, but caught that git at 135mph. After 10mins of HARD racing may brakes where all but useless.
I turned off into Epping forest the GSXR followed, and i raced behind him through the forest (not really overtaking roads), but i overtook some old vectra to catch upto him, the GSXR realised i was probably going to knock him down and pulled over, and let me pass "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The driver involved is obviously a total fucking idiot plus the chap on the GSXR was either not trying or just plain shite.

It's quite regular to encounter arseholes like that when you're out on the bike but fortunately in my experience so far it's always been very easy to leave them far, far behind.

---

Couldn't agree more!
I have occasionally met car drivers who thought that their tuned up Cossies, Porsches, BMWs etc were some kind of match for a 1000cc sports bike. But to be honest the encounter has always been very brief. How this encounter went on for so long is beyond belief. I'm no Valentino Rossi, but this rider must have been somebody's f****** grannie. Mind you the car driver was obviously some kind of twat if he gave the biker the impression he was going to knock him off if he didn't get out of the way.
To be fair I've found most car drivers quite considerate as long as you don't act like a twat. It's much more common to meet drivers who will move to the left of the road, and even indicate their intention in order to allow you more room to overtake, than it is to meet morons like the above (or am I just lucky?). It's about respect for each other. Like don't appear out of nowhere, sit on their rear bumper, main beam on swerving from side to side then suddenly cross double white lines and overtake on the wrong side of the road round a right-hand bend, narrowly avoiding oncoming traffic.

Speed limits are set for the lowest common denominator. You can't set a speed limit with the attitude 'Well, most competent drivers, paying full attention to the road and their surroundings, with the ability to anticipate potential hazards will be able to drive safely at that speed.' You don't have to drive very far to see how little attention people are paying to what is going on around them, and end up reacting to situations rather than anticipating them. But, no matter how much I anticipate, if I have a blow-out at 140 in my car, or bike especially, I may not live to tell the tale, and I might take a few innocent others with me as well.
We all do it, but we shouldn't be proud of it, as many here appear to be. Most people haven't had an accident at these speeds through luck, not skill. I have received a high level of driver training, at times in excess of twice the national speed limit quite legally on public roads, but even so, the degree of luck needed to avoid an accident increases the faster we go, no matter how skilled you are. You are never able to predict 100% what is going to happen in front of you, or to your vehicle, no matter how clear and empty the road.

Cheers
Ade

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
Curious that both 'Rasher' and Steve G have posted stuff that looks a lot like they don't or don't expect to be able to control themselves on the public road. Doesn't go well with driving slow or fast where calmness is always a virtue.

---

Who? Me? I don't speed at all in built up areas, and I drive slower than the speed limit where safety dictates. The vast majority of my driving is done within the speed limit, however I do indulge myself from time to time where conditions allow (nowadays I probably speed less often than most of the folks on this thread).

I rarely get angry when I'm on the road and when I do it'll generally be because some fucker has cut me up (usually while we're both below the speed limit) or is shaving/eating/drinking/doing their hair/putting make up on/reading the paper/driving while half blind due to cataracts/driving with uncleared or misted up windows and therefore putting my life at risk.

I'm usually very relaxed when I'm driving because I'm very rarely in a hurry to get anywhere. When I speed it's because I feel like it, not because I'm feeling some macho pressure to race someone or because I'm in a hurry to get to a meeting etc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
I have to make a real effort to be calm when I'm in a queue behind someone doing 45 in a 60 slowing to 40 in a 30. And 30 in a 40 if passing a speed camera. And all the overtaking possibilities that would let the queue safely pass are squandered by the cars in front. And the real morons who drive at 55 on a dual carriageway or motorway causing trucks to slowly overtake and generally making the road more dangerous than it need be as traffic bunches behind the rolling roadblock.

---

And you think it sounds like I have trouble controlling myself!? In all the above circumstances I do one of two things:

1) If I'm on the bike I overtake or filter past as you never have to wait long to do so.

2) If I'm in the car I just sink deeper into my leather seat, flick to Classic FM and let my troubles drift away...

Steve - You don't get angry on the road, just on the Forum
Infuriating isn't it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rasher:
Steve - You don't get angry on the road, just on the Forum
Infuriating isn't it.

---

I rarely feel anger on the forum. Pity, on the other hand...

Rasher wrote

quote:

---

I have children, and if I caught someone doing 60 down the high street putting my childrens lives in danger, I would rip their fucking heads off.

---

and
Steve G wrote

quote:

---

I have hauled a chap out of his car for shaving while driving at 30mph past a primary school when the kids were going in. I was absolutely fuming.

---

Now I don't go around threatening to rip heads off or hauling chaps out of their cars. I just get closest to it when people either aren't paying attention to their surroundings, or are plain incompetent, and are being anti-social as a result.

I even manage to maintain equanimity when following drivers that dab their brakes the whole time.

Paul

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
I even manage to maintain equanimity when following drivers that dab their brakes the whole time.

---

Is that from within 1 metre of their rear bumper then Paul.

I always give the car in front at least 2m grace.

Paul

I followed someone into Aberystwyth who was doing just that for over 20 miles. It seemed like 40. S/he was braking at the point in a bend where it would be normal to accelerate.

I'd got two choices: either I brake as well each time or pull over for about half an hour and hope I don't catch the offending driver up again.



Regards,

Steve.

quote:

---

And presumably see some merit in it, even if it isn't perfect, unlike John Sheridan, who obviously knows he is

---

Andy/Brian,
I was passing comment on the IAM *NOT* on advanced driving courses. I have done several advanced driving courses (amongst which were the first two levels of the BMW training if you're wondering Brian, and I'll be doing the 3rd either when I go back to Australia or at the Nurburgring - the real one - if they're still offering it) in my time as well as a few seasons racing karts. There is always more to learn and I am always taking steps to improve my driving. If, as you say, the IAM training is of a less rigid structure than what their website suggests then I just may look into it again. The last course I did was with a UK police instructor whose main complaint seemed to be that I wasn't driving fast enough.

quote:

---

John, as Steve points out, the attitude to speed from the instructors does vary a bit from person to person, but as already pointed out by Steve G, the two conditions you mention (making progress and keeping to speed limits) are not mutually incompatible, as you seem to think they are.

---

I agree that it's possible to make progress on a twisty road at the speed limit. The point I was making is that they want you to overtake and not sit in queues doing 5mph below the speed limit. Now work out how long you will spend on the wrong side of the road attempting to overtake someone at a relative speed of 5mph and tell me that is not far more dangerous than exceeding the speed limit momentarily and reducing that danger time on the wrong side of the road by a large amount.

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Sheridan:
I agree that it's possible to make progress on a twisty road at the speed limit. The point I was making is that they want you to overtake and not sit in queues doing 5mph below the speed limit. Now work out how long you will spend on the wrong side of the road attempting to overtake someone at a relative speed of 5mph and tell me that is not far more dangerous than exceeding the speed limit momentarily and reducing that danger time on the wrong side of the road by a large amount.

---

The IAM instructor (a serving police officer, riding a police Pan-European) that I was out with was telling me one thing and then doing another by hitting 90mph+ on overtakes.

When I was leading I didn't exceed any speed limits at all and was moaned at for not overtaking in exactly the scenario you described. Yes is was perfectly safe to overtake, but not by sticking to the speed limit. As there was absolutely no chance of me exceeding the speed limit with a police bike right behind me(!) then I didn't overtake.

When I was following him I didn't mind what speed we did so we overtook everything we encountered (which was fun as it must have looked like I was chasing him) but the hypocrisy was very clear.

Would I be correct in saying that once upon a time you could legally exceed the speed limit for the duration of an overtaking manoeuvre and that B Liar changed the law to accomodate automated inflexible methods of enforcement?



Regards,

Steve.

John,
it's not completely clear to me if all your courses were track based or also on-road. The on-road type courses are less concerned with limit handling and more to do with hazard perception. If you've already completed some type of road based course, then I can't see another being of any great benefit. A refresher never hurts of course, but you're into diminishing returns in my opinion.
RE the no braking rule ? I don't want to be seen as a mouthpiece for the IAM and I can't honestly remember that being said, but it's 10years since my last test.

RE: Overtakes above the speed limit, well that's always been a grey area. I think there is some flexibility, but if you hit a high velocity during the O/T, they would probably say the op was never really there. Personally, I would do it as fast as humanly possible or preferably a momentum pass. Tricky.

The company was recently recruiting engineers to train as part-time instructors, but I had to decline. I would really love to do it but I could see a little "risk" being a passenger at the Nordschleife.....

regards,
brian

quote:

---

Would I be correct in saying that once upon a time you could legally exceed the speed limit for the duration of an overtaking manoeuvre...

---

Not in this country as far as I'm aware.

I did read somewhere that this was allowed in France many years ago, but because too many drivers simply took it in turns to overtake each other so they could "legally" speed all the time, the law was changed.

Steve B