Hutter-ly amazing!

Posted by: John Channing on 24 December 2000

After a delay of a week or so my Hutter tables finally arrived on Friday from Austria. The tables were ordered from a dealer in Vienna, mainly because the price they were offering was something like a third less than the UK dealers. Most of the ordering process was done by email and the dealer speaks perfect English so it was generally very straight forward. The tables were a custom order in copper beech. I didn't go for the standard size because I think that they are slightly too large for Naim. My tables are 500mm wide and 400mm deep with standard height 50mm Nickel spacers. Shown in the picture are the four Racktime basic tables, 2 for me and 2 for Tim Oldridge, that I ordered. The outer packaging is pretty large because it is designed for the standard 600mm tables. I could just about pick up each package of two tables, they were heavy, but not extraordinarily so.
John

[This message was edited by John Channing on SUNDAY 24 December 2000 at 14:04.]

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by John Channing

About an hour after the tables arrived at my place Tim came to collect his. First we took them out of the large outer box so that they were just in the internal packaging. This unfortunately did not fit in Tim's car, so we had to strip off all of the packaging so that there was just the cardboard inserts that separated each shelf. Remarkably we managed to squeeze both tables in the boot of his sports cars and he got them safely home without any damage.
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by John Channing

After taking the tables out of the packaging I thought can I be bothered to set them up when I am going out tonight and leaving tomorrow morning for christmas at my parents? It was about 4pm in the afternoon and I wasn't sure whether I could be bothered with all that leveling and tuning and trying to move "live" equipment about given that I didn't have time to go through the warm up cycle. But hey, this is Hutter not Mana, the set up is easy and it works straight away with no tuning required! So I started setting up after first throwing the instructions in the bin, which were no use to me anyway since they were in German. First I put the base down and leveled it. The nuts I did up finger tight, because the tables will be moved in the new year when the Christmas tree goes. Then I looked at the main part of the table. If I put the spikes on first then each new level I added I would push the spikes harder into the base so I decided to build the whole table first without spikes and then lower it onto the base. Remember each shelf is pushed onto it connecting rods so each time I added another shelf I would have been pressing on the spikes. This worked pretty except that the table is then quite heavy and locating the spikes in the little wholes that they are intended to sit in was quite tricky. Both tables were built and the kit installed in under an hour without any problems at all. My only disappoint was that I did not have a set of spikes for the isolation base so this is standing on the rounded feet provided. When the kit is placed in its final resting place I will get some spikes, but for now it will do. I must also say that the fit and finish of the tables is flawless, they really do look superb and anyone who thinks that this stuff looks like Ikea needs their eyes tested!
Ok, so what does it sound like? Well previously I was using an Appollo table (shown in the first picture) which is a standard steel and MDF Target style stand. This table is probably not great, but I know from my own experiments that a CDX placed on this stand sounds miles better than the CDX places directly on the wooden floor. From the very first note though it was obvious that the Hutter was a massive improvement. There was a very noticeable increase in bandwidth at both ends and the amount of detail coming out of the speakers had increased enormously. This effect was not subtle, but huge, it wasn't the kind of thing that needed an A-B comparison to determine it was just so obvious. The treble in particular sounded totally different, far more extended with much more harmonic texture. I have to admit that my reaction was "it sounds like analogue" which is the first time that I have ever thought that about the CDX. A lot of what I heard also has parallels with what the Mana enthusiast describe. A definite reduction in hash, with a quieter, darker background. Individual instruments were now far easier to pick out and follow. Rhythmic patterns that I thought that I knew also know sounded more complicated with subtle changes in timing and shifts of pace that I hadn't noticed before. And all this just from adding a couple of table, I was well pleased! Hopefully thing will continue to improve over the next few weeks as the tables settle and I tweak the set up but right now this is looking like money very well spent. I recommend Hutter to anyone.
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by Andrew Randle

John,

Could you please please please post the details of the dealer?

Thank you,

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by John Channing

Andrew,
I don't want to advertise the dealer details on this forum, but if you email me on john.channing@cwcom.net I will send you the info. If you also have a fax number I can fax you the Hutter price list (in German), but you won't get it until I return to work next week.
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by John Channing

How about a set up like this for me next Christmas!
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by Nigel Cavendish

Got to say it, but whether it works or not, I do not like the style.

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by Ron Toolsie

... the pictures of the 3x500 clad in Hutter look reminiscent of shipping palettes. Which still is more cosmetic than the *ana stands. Maybe we should have a competion or poll for the 'Cleanest Install' system, akin to those seen in Auto Sound mags. I know that mine would not even make it through the first round.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

http://homepages.go.com/~rontoolsie/index1.html

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by Top Cat

Well done - you've made a positive move in getting a decent support - Mana or Hutter, it's a step in the right direction.

I've gone 100% Mana and have some more levels coming to me next week (along with a s/h-but-mint Aro) and I'm excited!!!

Merry Christmas, and enjoy your Hutter (and please post your thoughts as it settles in)...

John

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by bob atherton

Hi John,

Congratulations on your new stands, & maybe you thought my views on Hutter were a bit OTT...

The really good news is that the stands get better as they settle. This took about 1 week for me.

When the festivities are over tighten up your spikes, this will improve things as well. I have 2 sets of floor spikes in transit to me, ariving just after Christmas. According to the people that know this also makes a big improvement!!!

It's had to believe that such an attractive stand can sound _so_ good, but as you have just found out, it does.

Enjoy the music. Merry Christmas,

Bob

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by Mick P

I am sitting in front of this bloody computer, 9.15 pm on christmas eve, being verbally abused by the wife for being a sad git etc. Sometimes tinnitus is a blessing in disguise with a nagging wife waffling on. Still I have a glass of whiskey and mince pies to hand so not too bad.

Vuk...my little colonial friend.......you have sent in loads of photo's confirming the ugliness of this piece of ironmongery......but you have said nothing on the sound.......seems rather suspicious.

Come on......spill the beans. Now be honest...is it as good as you hoped it would be ?

Looking at the style of your decor, would have thought that the superb craftsmanship of Hutter would have blended quite well.

Regards

Mick,......PS happy Christmas to you all who bother to read this stuff.

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by John Channing

quote:
It's funny how John's Hutter pictures confirmed even more how pedestrian and unattractive it is to me, though I could see it working well in a place that had shiny black floors and lots of chique industrial piping to offset the playpen look

Vuk,
If you don't like the general shape of the stuff then fair enough, but what the pictures do not convey very well is the general fit and finish which really is truly superb. In my room, which is pretty big with a wooden floor, my old black metal stand (pictured above) looked really great, so I can believe that Mana can look good in the domestic environment, but hey, that is not the reason why any of us buys a stand.
In your picture I see that you have your Neat Elites very close together, why is that? Also, why is the CDX so low down with the old style 250(?) right at the top? Did you try all combinations?
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by Andrew Randle

Best reserve judgement on the look of John's Hutter kit, so far I haven't seen pictures of it fully set up with the metal shelf spacers.

Vuk, congratulations on the Elites. If they're anything like the Petite/Gravitas I've heard then they'll be fantastic.

Although I'm not keen on the idea of placing the kit between the speakers, mainly from a soundfield point-of-view. Maybe there's no other alternative (however I say "where there's a will there's a way").

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Posted on: 24 December 2000 by John Channing

quote:
That said, I am not terribly impressed by Joel's choices in assembly (sorry Joel, I know there is a point to it).

Vuk,
Joel is a law unto himself and no-one else really understands what he is trying to achieve with his stand arrangement.
John
Ps. I have scanned a load of pics from when we went to Joel's. Is it bad netiquette to post pictures of people without asking them first if they mind? I know Joel asked and someone (unnamed) objected, but hey, if we all did that we wouldn't have any fun!

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 25 December 2000 by Tony L

quote:
Congrats dude! I hope you're experiencing a similar level of performance to what I'm now getting.

Wow, looks like Vuk chooses to place his novelty gonks on his speakers before remembering he has a P9.

Tony.

PS What's the verdict on the new Mana rack then?

Posted on: 25 December 2000 by John Channing

quote:
If Hutter is better than what my stack of angle iron is doing, then I would sell all of my gear, by the Austrian stuff, stick a Sansui all-in-one on top, retire from internet audio and go on a nice trip with the money I would pocket.
The Neat Elites are absolutley stunning and are contributing in a big way to the fantastic music my system is producing.

Vuk,
And you know that there are a few ex-Mana owners out there who think it is!
I'm interested in the Neat Elites. I've heard them sound both fantastic and rather nasty. Are they definitely the best speakers you have tried? Better than Kans?
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Tony L

quote:
(in addition to the midrange "honk" that made all singers sound as if they came from the same family and inhereted a severe nasal problem).

Vuk's insistence on this "honk" merely proves he still has not heard Kans set up correctly yet! Poor chap. If he ever gets to the UK he is more than welcome to eat his words… I even run my Nicam TV through them as I love the neutrality they provide to voice - there is none of the chestiness or boxiness associated with so many inferior hi-fi speakers. TV with real pace rhythm and timing is a whole different ball park. Oh, they do music too.

quote:
Anyhow, keep in mind that the Elites are about 8 times the cost of s/h Kans.

That would make them at least 1600 quid, that is a lot dearer than I thought, I had them down as a Credo competitor. That is actually a good pricepoint, pretty much midway between Credos and SBLs. Would be interesting to put the Elites up against SBLs.

To give an idea of pricepoints, when the Kan II were discontinued they cost 540 quid without stands, which I suspect was about the same as a HiCap - that would put them somewhere between 800 and 900 without stands I guess (the stands are now 185), the Tukan came in a lot cheaper at 400 quid when it was released.

I would love to hear a pair of Elites, as I certainly like the Petite, though I remain deeply suspicious of reflex ports, and especially rear ports - low frequencies arriving from the wrong side of a transducer, through a hole in a box, and then bounced off a totally unknown rear wall before you hear them… hmmm…

Tony.

Boxing day, triple time, bored.

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by John Channing

Tony/Vuk,
In the UK Elites are £1200 so they are Credo competitors. The other speaker that falls into this price category that has received good reports from Mana users is the PMC FB1. PMC is the "Professional Monitor Company" and given Vuk's previous like for pro monitors I thought he might like them. The FB1 is a transmission line speaker that costs about £1100, Billy Vee in London currently has an ex-dem pair for £890 (or they did a couple of weeks back). When I have heard PMC speakers at shows they have always impressed me, the larger monitors in particular provide enormous scale and bass. Hopefully in the next month or so I should be able to do a dem of Elite vs FB1.
My only reservation about the Elites is that they sounded tonally unrefined last time I heard them, but it may just have been set up.
John

Music is the answer.

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Mick P

Chaps

I notice from your pics, that many of you (in fact the vast majority) have polished wooden floors.

Surely you would be better off with wall to wall carpeting which will soften the sound. A couple of oriental rugs will help but thats a bit like shovelling sand with a teaspoon.

Go out and buy some carpet......natural wool by the way is best from an appearance point of view.

The carpet will probably improve your accoustics as much as a Mana or Hutter rack.......so get some.

Also for Vuk........plain carpets look better.....do not but any of those multi coloured things, they are ghastly

Regards

Mick......whose waistline is at least 1" greater than before Christmas day

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Tony L

quote:
I really doubt that we are all wrong.

Considering that I am on my third pair of "non honking" Kans, it would certainly appear to be that way! As I say, I have proof!

Tony.

PS I am assuming your definition of "honk" to be some sort of cabinet boom or box colouration in the mid that would be obvious on voice / instrumantal timbre - if you are just attempting to describe a slight mid forward balance then we are using a totally different definition.

I have found the Kan to be remarkably free of box colouration and to have stunningly good driver integration (though at the expense of efficiency).

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Mick P

Vuk

I would never criticise anyones taste in decor, including yours because you never criticise mine.

Regards

Mick....who adores Sahra Brightman

whose wife knits tea cosies etc etc.

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by BrianD

*********************************************
There is a measurable hump in the mid-band response that has singers sounding as if they'd cupped their hands into a cylinder/horn in front of their mouths. Makes them sound "quacky" or "nasal".
*********************************************

I've deleted my comment about Kans. I don't know what came over me, must have been all that Xmas stuff!

I sold my Kans because I moved to a house with a larger room and they didn't sound right. It was Sara's I sold because they sounded as though the vocals were recorded in a bathroom.

Sorry about that.

Brian

[This message was edited by Brian on WEDNESDAY 27 December 2000 at 09:48.]

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Arthur Bye

Vuk: I see in your photo that you have your Mana mounted on small pieces of wood. I believe that this not the accepted setup and you may find that your Mana may not work as advertised.

JW suggested that if you don't want to damage your floor you should mount the stand on MDF which is blu-taked to the floor with four pea sized balls of of blu-tak. The MDF should not make direct contact with the floor.

I didn't try my set up the same way you have yours; I just put coins underneath. It was too bright otherwise. Mana worked a whole lot better when I did it per JW's instructions with the MDF underneath.

I have two sound stages on order minus the metal frame (laminated board only) and this is what was suggested to me as being the best sounding and the most aesthetic. They will replace the MDF with pea sized blu-tak.

Your set up look's pretty good otherwise. Can't say I understand why no-one likes the Mana look. I think it's a natural fit with Mana and your photo clearly shows that.

Arthur Bye

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Tony L

quote:
What kills me is that every single person I talk to knows exactly what I am on about except you. It's a great little speaker, but I think you are either accustommed to or deliberately ignoring one of it's obvious flaws.

I have heard Kans sound as you describe, just as I have heard SBLs screech and DBLs boom. Anyone with seven fifteenths of a brain should realise that it is down to dodgy setup and not assume that just because they are incapable of getting any of the above to work that the product itself is fundamentally flawed. Remember it took me 13 years to hear a pair of SBLs set up to my taste (after hearing probably 25 pairs), though even at my most SBL hating times, I simply said that I had not yet head them work well. I was certainly never arrogant enough to state categorically they were flawed. I am currently at the same stage with NBLs, every time I have heard them (6 different so far) I have absolutely hated them, though I would bet they can be made to work.

I respect Joe Petriks opinion greatly, we seem to agree on the vast majority of things and share all the same musical priorities, and are even running relatively similar systems, though I am sure that Joe would be the first to admit his system has changed a lot, and he has probably learnt a bit about system setup since he last owned Kans. We all have.

I am not attempting to tout the Kan as a do everything wonder speaker, it is certainly not, though it is not anywhere near as inherently coloured as you have experienced with your particular setup in your room. I have personally used three different pairs of the things in many different locations for over 10 years, and I am still learning. Every time I think I have the bastard things sussed, I change something upstream, and the goalposts move once more. All I can confidently tell you about the negative aspects of their character is that they are comparatively mid forward, and are none too weighty in the bass compared to a large floorstander.

I look forward to another Mana like epiphany when you finally do hear a pair working properly! If you want a second opinion simply ask Jawed (who once likened them to small DBLs) or Rico (who liked them so much he bought my “spare” pair). It just irks me to hear someone slag something off through simply not hearing a good installation, it may even put someone off landing an affordable classic.

Tony.

PS Are you going to hear Petites before going for the Elites? Bigger ain’t always best.

Posted on: 26 December 2000 by Arthur Bye

Vuk wrote:

quote:
I have "fixed" them to the floor in such a way that they're essentially glued to it and thereby part of the the total floor itself

Vuk: I tried screwing my MDF directly to my pine floor with the thought that this would essentially make it just an extension of the floor itself. This would be similar to what you did. My floors were rustic pine boards so the holes that I made could be easily disguised later on.

This didn't work. Maybe it was because of the different densities between the pine floor and the MDF. The blu-tak set up did work however. Must have somthing to do with the laminate in you case or the similarity of the products used.

Hey... it seems like ALL of your albums have pictures on them. So if Sarah Brightman comes out with a new album with her boobs a glowing does that mean you're going to convert to the dark side?

Arthur Bye

Posted on: 27 December 2000 by Tony L

quote:
I have tried all of your expert setup tips and I still perceive the quack/honk. So does everyone else! It's not as I've been careless either--remember, I'm the one with 7 levels, 3 exclusivley for audio, 2 of these the machinist variety. Maybe you've got some magic room or mysterious fault masking scenario.

Can't be arsed with this argument anymore - this is my last post on the subject.

I just remeber all the total crap spouted about how Mana simply can't work, about ball nuts etc, about spikes being fundamentally flawed etc followed by the inevitable mass eating of words (which I respect). This will happen again folks, watch this space. With the best will in the world, you have been using quality hifi for about two and a half years, it is just possible others out there have a little more experience.

It does not matter how many bloody levels anyone owns if they give up before something is right.

Tony.

PS seeing that you have your system placed between your speakers, your spikes on seperate bits of wood, plus a bleedin' TV on the rack goes a long way to prove my point! Still a little to learn.

[This message was edited by Tony Lonorgan on WEDNESDAY 27 December 2000 at 09:24.]