Hutter-ly amazing!
Posted by: John Channing on 24 December 2000
John
[This message was edited by John Channing on SUNDAY 24 December 2000 at 14:04.]
The first time was at a Heathrow airport Hi Fi show in '85 ( I think) These were Kan 1's on Kan 1 stands in the Linn room. Fronted by LP12, Ittok, AsakT, 32, SNAPS, 250.
They were totally sublime. Mark Ellis Jones was with me & we just kept going back to the room, we couldn't believe how such a small speaker could give such a realistic performance. In a nearby room the Naim guys were having a bit of a nightmare trying to get a 6 pack PMS system to work.
The Kan room had _more_ bass than the Briks.
The second experience of Kans sounding awesome was an active pair that a chap owned whom I bought a Hicap from. These had real _slam_. difficult to believe unless you were there. These were Kan II's mounted on wall brackets. I checked the stability of this pair & were as solid as a rock.
The third pair,( & here I am a little immodest ) were in my own home. Not quite as enveloping & 'big' as the Linn room pair & not quite as much slam as the active pair, but bloody good, & certainly no 'honk'.
I used to work at Radford Hifi in the mid 80's & sold countless pairs of Kans. I was there for the transition from 1 to II, & almost each batch had tonal characteristics different from the previous pair. I often set up the speakers at customers houses to sadly quite mixed results. If I knew then what I know now....
This is where I might be a little controversial, but IMHO Kans work at their best on Sound Org Kan wall brackets. These must be slightly modified first. This involves adding a set of nuts to the upper spikes & then tighten to within an inch in their lives. Until these nuts were added, there was a hint of midrange honk.
The _only_ reason that I now use active IBL's & not Kans is that the Kan just will not go loud enough for my musical tastes. A track like Young Man Blues from The Who, Live At Leeds, just has to be played loud. IBL's don't go that much louder, but just about cut it in this department.
Anyone who has not heard Kans really strutting their stuff has missed out on quite an experience.
Once heard never forgotten, usually results in a purchasing a pair!
Bo
quote:
I used to work at Radford Hifi in the mid 80's & sold countless pairs of Kans. I was there for the transition from 1 to II, & almost each batch had tonal characteristics different from the previous pair.
Which variants do you rate the most highly?
I would like to find the ultimate pair (though suspect I might have). I have owned a final spec Mk I, a very early Mk II and my current final spec Mk II. I like my current ones best.
quote:
This is where I might be a little controversial, but IMHO Kans work at their best on Sound Org Kan wall brackets.
This is not the first time I have heard this advice. Anyone got a spare pair they don't need?
Tony.
I bought Kan-Is as standby speakers, and had not got around to trying them in my system.
A while ago a friend of mine asked me to checkout his system as it was sounding 'strange'. From his description I guessed it was the speakers, so took over the Kans to confirm it. His system was Arcam CD, 72/Hi/250, 20'x12' room. This was my first Kan setup experience.
Initially I thought they were obviously small sounding, honking, strained, harsh.
We played with the system and things were better, but not cured.
We then moved the speakers a few inches at a time until it snapped into place and re-did the stand setup, and bingo.
Honk was gone, bass weight had arrived. This was no longer a small speaker sound. And the musical flow, lyricism, ease, control - amazing.
There is absolutely no question that if you heard honking they weren't setup correctly or don't suit your room.
One question for you, Vuk - does your abode have wooden or brick construction? If you can't place Kans against a brick wall you might as well forget it. The lack of boundary reinforcement would probably be the source of your honk.
Tony,
quote:
I remain deeply suspicious of reflex ports, and especially rear ports - low frequencies arriving ... through a hole in a box, and then bounced off a totally unknown rear wall before you hear them
I don't see how a sound wave can bounce off anything which is closer to it's source than it's wavelength. Even a 100Hz tone (well above the range produced by a port) has a wavelength of over 3 metres. These sounds will seamlessly diffract around the carcass of the speaker. (You might get some interference with clean airflow through the port if it's mounted close to the rear wall, but that's a different matter entirely).
I have read that considerable mid-range energy can escape through a port, and this might be less intrusive if it is directed away from the listener.
Christmas Cheer to you both, Martin
quote:
I don't see how a sound wave can bounce off anything which is closer to it's source than it's wavelength. Even a 100Hz tone (well above the range produced by a port) has a wavelength of over 3 metres. These sounds will seamlessly diffract around the carcass of the speaker.
Martin,
I have absolutely no doubt that you are theoretically totally correct, though I am one of those irritating persons that can just about always hear a port. At the recent spate of UK hi-fi shows, one of my friends and I played the noble game of port spotting. Simply pop your head into a room, hear the first bass note, decide has the speaker got one. We were both pretty much one hundred percent accurate within a matter of seconds. The only things that threw us were auxiliary bass reflex devices such as on Vandersteen speakers.
The things that wind me up the most with so many loudspeakers is a lack of grip resulting in a obvious overhang, or the tendency to exaggerate certain bass notes at the expense of others. A run down a bass neck sounds completely uneven, and certain bad ports seem to bend the pitch off key.
I actually feel speaker design is going backwards at the moment, I still refuse to believe you can market a floorstander for under about a grand that even slightly works, if there is one out there I certainly have not heard it yet. I am deeply sceptical about the current insistence on reflex ports, as I said above, I can always clearly hear them… play me a pair, hand me a bass and I will be able to tell you what note the port is tuned to.
It seems most speakers are marketed today on their ability to produce a comparatively large sense of scale, regardless of whether they can hold a tune or not, let alone whether they can time. The combination of cheap floorstander plus port is IMHO disastrous. Compare one of these ported cheap floorstanders to a half decent infinite baffle stand mount (say a pair old AR18s that could be had for about 30 quid from a car boot sale!) and from my perspective they are left completely dead in the water musically.
If its in a box, then I want it infinite baffle, if its cheap, then make it smaller. My friend goes one step further, he wants both infinite baffle and three way.
I must also admit that I love panel speakers, if they did not have such a treble hot spot I would be very interested indeed in Quad 57s, I expect I will someday own a pair for a while.
Tony.
quote:
No need to be offensive and insulting about all this.
I put up with loads before I actually was. I just found the whole "I say this therefore it is right regardless of any evidence produced by anyone else" argument both offensive and insulting!
A theory is only any good until it is disproved. Bob, Martin, Zob and myself all have experience that disproves that theory.
Game over, Thank you for playing.
Tony.
I agree with Vuk that this is not worth getting one's knickers in a twist about... but I agree with Tony that Kans _can_ sound totally believable without any 'honk', it's just that Vuk has not heard them like this _yet_.
I'm sure one day, maybe years from now, Vuk will hear a pair really doing it properly. Until that day Tony ( & some others including myself ) know how good they can sound, & Vuk will be sceptical about this.
That's life!
Bob.
quote:
You really are getting wound up about this.
I'm not at all. I am actually finding it really funny, certainly passes the time on a very boring day at work. Ah well I'm off for five days now, I will spend all the time trying to get my Kans to honk for you.
quote:
I have taken all of your advice about Kans and went to great lengths to borrow them, find the proper stands and move them around centimetre by centimetre. My back wall is a house wall with brick on the outside, but drywall on the inside.
Some things are simply not meant to be. My guess would be that you will probably not get spectacular results with SBLs either as the room requirements for both is similar, and when Kans honk, SBLs will probably screech or shout.
I am not sure what drywall actually is, but if it is what I would know as plasterboard then it is far from ideal. The back wall in my current flat is plasterboard, and whilst I do not get the honk, I am certainly not getting quite the amount of bass extension I have managed elsewhere. I am not bothered as I plan to move as soon as I can find a Kan friendly flat to buy with a nice solid brick flat wall. Will probably try the wall brackets then if I can find some.
Tony.
BTW, looking at your delightful picture of the Sam Fox disc, I remembered that you used to use a Reference Table. Your pics with the 6 tier shows no RT, is that out of frame?
Bob.
FWIW, even though I now use IBL's, I've still kept my late vintage Kan 1's & wall brackets ( sorry Tony )
Nice set up. Is the box on the floor a prefix?
I bet you are not using the fan at the moment with all that snow!
Best wishes,
Bob.
John
Forget the misogeny!!
John
Psychology, Codology more like!!
quote:
I notice in your profile that you've got 2 52-based systems and a set of "spare" components that make up something better than what Sgt. Petrik runs as a primary system.
Vuk:
Since Joe's now migrated to the US of eh? I figure you must be referring to my illustrious "spare" Sony ES surround system as Naim barely exists in the US (of eh). If Joe's got as much as a Nait he's doing better. Surround sound is probably the biggest waste of money I've ever spent. Not much for music but it's great for crash and bang. Definitely impresses all the neighbors. That's all the use it gets though.
Arthur Bye
Yeah I know what you meant. I was just being sarcastic.
I got tired of always making comparisons between the CDS1, CDS2, and the CDX/XPS and all the other stuff. Wasn't listening to the music enough, so I just decided to have two systems that were exactly the same. I keep one system in my apartment in the city and one in my home in the country. I'll probably unload all that other stuff after a while. The CDS1 and the CDX/XPS being the exception. There's someting about a CDS1 on Mana that really works. Just like the CDX/XPS there some things I like about both of them at times that are better than the CDS2. Just haven't quite figured it out what it is yet. Mostly its more groove, but just with some recordings.
Until then I'm searching for the Holy Grail of speakers(not going to spend 18k US on DBL's. x2)
Finally got all my amps and power supplies on a Mana 4 tier and sources on a Mana 5 tier(phase 2)
Sounds a lot more well defined now, but I think having Mana on the amps and power supplies might be over-rated.
Waiting to hear your review after your stuff settles in. Looks like a nice set up you've got. I'll have to give the Elites a listen if I can find a dealer.
Arthur Bye
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don't forget to let me in soon on the real estate racket that allows one to have all those top notch CD players kicking around.
Vuk: If you had to sell real estate for a living you wouldn't have enough time to listen to any music. You'd also have to work for a living. As I recall you spend most of your time playing basketball in six feet of snow.
The Mana/Naim Forum would never forgive you for such dereliction of duties. I think both of them should put you on payroll, or at least send you permanent demo models.
The real estate market's just like to stock market; it goes up and it goes down. I've had a pretty good ride, now I getting ready for the downturn. I've got lots of goodies stored up for all the free time coming up.
Just hope the wife never figures out how much all this stuff costs.
Thanks for the Neat contact info.
Arthur Bye
The pear looks quite nice, but the Beech definitely sounds better 
Joel,
Did you try stacking the isolation bases Mana style? I'm tempted to give it a go if you haven't already tried it.
John
Music is the answer.
John
Music is the answer.
Your little exchange has indicated a potential problem.
Do the different woods have different sonic properties.
I prefer the dark woods such as cherry to blend in with my mahogany furniture.
Hutter seem to push beech.....is that because it sounds better or is it just some fashion fad. I know young people prefer light coloured wood whereas us more mature chaps of better taste prefer darker woood.
Regards
Mick
quote:
Do the different woods have different sonic properties.
Mick,
I was joking about the beech sounding better, I have no idea whether there is any difference. With most hifi products offered in different finishes such as the LP12, SBLs, etc. there is usually some opinion about one particular wood sounding the best but I think the differences are minimal. Beech is one of the standard Hutter finishes that does not need to be specially ordered which is probably why it sells a lot. I think most of the stands that Naim have used have been in Maple (the very pale, almost white coloured wood). So just go for the wood finish you like, I'm sure it will be excellent.
John
Music is the answer.
enjoy... (cant see you having any problems here...!)
ken
John
Music is the answer.
Would be interested in any thoughts you have on why you impressive system suddenly got better on Saturday.
Was it related to mains power supply?
What mains power supply set up do you use?(dedicated spurs, earth, connections etc.)
Interesting that if it is mains variations that even after having the top of the range Naim gear (NAC52 + 3 * NAP500s no less!!!!) that Naim is still very suseptable to variations in sound quality - not too much of a hassle if each change the quality gets better but if it gets worse after building up such a system it must suck!.
Richard
* Kans Is are great but I believe they are tonally screwed. I had a pair of Kan Is and they honked (among other things) which ultimately led to me swapping them for a pair of Quad ESLs, which definitely don't honk but have other problems. (I should fess up that I had a modest system at the time and at least half of the honking was probably attributable to the system and set up.)
* Kan IIs are musically 98% as good as Kan Is but are tonally about 150% better. I should have bought these instead. Important lesson: Sometimes a deal isn't a deal.
* Saras -- OK, they really aren't the focus of this thread but in my view these are the most honky hi-fi speaker I've ever heard. Made Sid Vicious sound like James Taylor. Shit, they made everyone sound like James Taylor. If you played James Taylor backwards, no sound emerged. Complete and total anililation. But they do have nice, juicy bass.
* Elites -- Well, if Vuk had not redone his floor, moved the bookshelves into the corners of the room, bought a 52, got a Prefix, and Mana'd his system up the wazoo since the last time I was there I might be able to say what they sound like.
But he did redo his floor, move the bookshelves into the corners of the room, buy a 52, get a prefix, and Mana'd his system up the wazoo.
* Breasts -- Yup, women have two of them. Mmmmmmmmmmmm boobies.
Joe
quote:
I had a pair of Kan Is and they honked (among other things) which ultimately led to me swapping them for a pair of Quad ESLs, which definitely don't honk but have other problems.
Tell us more, what did you not like about the Quad ESL (one of the very few speakers out there that actually interest me).
Tony.
PS Is Vuk's system any good?
quote:
what did you not like about the Quad ESL (one of the very few speakers out there that actually interest me
The switch from Quads to Saras was probably one of my more stupid upgrades. The Quads are very good speakers but they don't do scale very well, don't play loud (although, now that I'm closer to 40 than 30, that's not a big deal anymore), and don't go deep enough do justice to full-range music. All those deficiencies were what led me to Saras. That and a used pair that showed up real cheap. (Did I mention I'm a sucker for deals?)
If those sins of omission don't concern you, they are the speakers to get. I strongly prefer Quads to good speakers that make sins of commission -- I'm convinced that it's not so much what Quads do that makes them such convincing speakers, it's what they don't do. Oh yeah, and they beam treble at you like a flashlight. Other than that, they're amazing.
Joe
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Oh come on, I thought you and Joel had the amasing ability to factor out all extraneous variables, no matter what they were! At least thow the homies a bone.
Although I haven't heard Vuk's system in over a year, making comparisons difficult, it's never sounded better. All the things that his Tannoys didn't do properly, the Elites do well and in spades -- they're sophisticated, smooth, lyrical, and tuneful without being boring or mushy. In all ways except thwack (what you get when you hit a snare real hard), the Elites are much, much better speakers than the Tannoys.
My only reservation is that Vuk's room is less than ideal. He has the same problem that's plagued me in just about every place I've lived: the bass energizes the floor so the timing is thrown. I once had a good room (ironically, a cheap basement apartment in a 20-story high-rise filled with 613 students) that made my modest system sound better than anything I've owned or tried since.
I think the room upgrade ought to be the next big purchase. Seriously, man. For all my belly achin' about my new room sucking, the cement floor has has performed a miracle in resolving the bass slurry into notes.
Joe