Hutter-ly amazing!
Posted by: John Channing on 24 December 2000
John
[This message was edited by John Channing on SUNDAY 24 December 2000 at 14:04.]
quote:
If those sins of omission don't concern you, they are the speakers to get. I strongly prefer Quads to good speakers that make sins of commission -- I'm convinced that it's not so much what Quads do that makes them such convincing speakers, it's what they don't do. Oh yeah, and they beam treble at you like a flashlight. Other than that, they're amazing.
Volume does not even slightly concern me – I will take quality over quantity every time. I seem very sensitive to the box colouration that exists in so many conventional speakers (especially big ported ones), I love the freedom panels have from this obvious resonance.
The most important thing is what the Quads are like from a groove perspective. Comments? I have never heard them driven with anything other than Quad amplification which is perhaps not the funkiest around. They would have to ‘do the Kan groove thing’.
Tell us more about the treble beaming, as this is probably what would put me off the most – I do most of my listening off axis, and would like some top end.
Could I get Quads to quack? (still can’t do it with Kan IIs!).
ESL 57s are a speaker that I will have to own at some point for the experience, just as I needed to own Isobariks for a while.
Tony.
enjoy ...
ken
I have a friend who has an LP-12/CD-3/82/Hi-Cap/ 180. He has had ESLs and currently owns SBLs. I've heard both in his home and have to say if you sit directly in-between the speakers in the "sweet spot", the Quads beat the SBLs hands down in almost all respects. He sold the Quads for two reasons; his son arced them twice (expensive and a hassle to replace) and the SBLs sound just as good in the next room and with his significant other next to him. (Though his daughter did poke-in a tweeter of the SBLs and they needed to be serviced also,....OOOPS).
Put my name down with yours, Bob, and zOB, as having or hearing Kans without "honk". You are correct on Vuk eating his words concerning Kans; I will be getting a 52 or Naim A-V pre=amp, as well as updating my NAXO and putting the Hi-Cap on it, over the next few months and it will be hard for Vuk to not want to hear my system (I live less than a few hours drive). Active Kans are the best hi-fi I've heard regardless of price. My Kans are on Audio-Tech wall-mount shelves (which smoke the SO models), have the new Linn tweeters (which super-smoke the original units), and are the most beautiful Rosewood finish I've seen on any speaker (and exactly matches my LP-12).
Ron The Mon,
Kan-Fan (and sometimes ESL-Fan)
Vuk,
Everytime you show a photo of your P9 it irritates me to no end still seeing that you have the wrong counterweight on your tone-arm. Please visit a real Rega dealer and spend the $150. for the proper weight (the heaviest model). You will kick yourself when you hear how much of an improvement it makes and what you've been missing.
Concerning measuring honk in Kans; Who measured them, what type of scope were they using, what stands were they on, what was the input to the scope (music or test signal), what amps were used, were other sympathetically vibrating speakers in the room (this invalidates the test), were they tested active and passive (to check if crossover causes "naselness"), etc.... As a Linn/Naim salesman, I found that all "honking" Kans were a result of "SVO" (Sympathetically Vibrating Objects) in the room. A short list includes; other speakers being compared, telephones, answering machines, childrens toys, appliance timers, smoke alarms, and ('tis the season) musical Christmas ornaments. The most offensive of all (and possibly the explanation for Joel's "sudden" improvement) is the cel-phone and/or pager. Get these out of a room and you're back in business.
Ron The Mon
To Anyone,
Speaking of ESLs, has anyone on the Forum ever heard the Naim "six-pack" Electrostatic when it existed? I know of one person who heard it and she said it was incredible.
Just Wondering,
Ron The Mon
quote:
The most important thing is what the Quads are like from a groove perspective. Comments? I have never heard them driven with anything other than Quad amplification which is perhaps not the funkiest around. They would have to the Kan groove thing
It was so long ago that I hesitate to say anything, but I recall Kans doing the groove thing better. But Quads do the intimate quartet (jazz, baroque, whatever) thing better than anything I've heard. And I hate to invoke the audiophool cliche but female vocals are so devastingly accurate you can fool yourself into believing someone is in the room. Get Quads and they might choose your music for you.
quote:
Tell us more about the treble beaming, as this is probably what would put me off the most as I do most of my listening off axis, and would like some top end.
Off axis? Quads have a sweet spot you can measure in microns. They're the ideal speaker for recluses and hermits. I'm convinced that two people can't enjoy Quads at the same time.
quote:
Could I get Quads to quack? (still can't do it with Kan IIs!).
Hmmm, the most uncoloured midband I've ever heard... nope, not a chance. They quack only if you play Disney movies with Donald Duck.
quote:
ESL 57s are a speaker that I will have to own at some point for the experience, just as I needed to own Isobariks for a while.
Yeah, every one should own a pair for a while to hammer home two points -- that most speakers are coloured, and that the electrostatic panel should have been the dominate speaker technology.
Joe
quote:
tony, pardon me for being nosy --- but why did you get rid of the isobariks?? are you using kans mainly now??
I had always lusted after the classic flat earth system of LP12 / 32 / Hicap / 135 / Isobarik from the Flat Response / Hi-Fi Review days, so when I was able to find the cash to do it second hand I upgraded my Xerxes / 62 / Hicap / 140 / Kan II system in that direction. Problem was that my Xerxes system was actually stunningly good!
I love the weight and scale of the Isobarik, and I really like the way the upward firing drivers fill the room as I listen to music mostly off axis. The down side was I simply could not get them to react fast enough for my taste. I am a total timing freak, I play the bass guitar and find the slightest amount of overhang can completely destroy my ability to enjoy a piece of music (this is why I hate nearly all ports). The bass from the Isobariks in either of the smallish rooms I was able to use them just simply did not stop correctly, though the pitch, extension, and feel impression of a real bass instrument was very good indeed.
Kans do the pitch just as well, though in my system let far more detail through, and can stop and start faster than any other box speaker I have yet heard. They play stuff in time right from the extreme top end to as far down as they go (astonishingly deep for their size). Obviously there is not as much weight as a Barik, but I can cope with that quite happily. The Kan enables me to hear exactly how the bass guitar is being played, this is very important to me, they also reveal far more information about the bass drum or synth stuff down there than any other speaker I could remotely afford.
After the Bariks I used ProAc Tablette 50 Signatures for a while, these are a pretty good speaker, though lack the Kans real agility, and yes you can hear the port. I currently have a stunningly well cared for pair of final spec Ku-Stone Kan IIs in teak which I am very happy with - I actually consider them the strongest part of my system, everything else could be upgraded and they would reveal the changes with ease.
Tony.
quote:
Vuk,
Everytime you show a photo of your P9 it irritates me to no end still seeing that you have the wrong counterweight on your tone-arm. Please visit a real Rega dealer and spend the $150. for the proper weight (the heaviest model).
Mine too! I have the exact same set up as Vuk, and the heaviest Rega counterweight is barely enough to balance out the monster Dynavector XX1L. The thing I notice is that we seem to have aligned the cartridge differently - mine is bang in by both the standard the Rega and a two point Ortofon protractor, and looks to me to be further forward in the headshell than Vuk's!
Tony.
I might as well completely hijack this thread since any talk of Hutter died out on page 2...
What's your view of the XX-1L now that you've had it for a few weeks? My Karma still has several hundreds of hours left on it but it will eventually crap out. I'm too cheap to seriously consider a new Te Kaitora and your experience with the LydianB has moved that cartridge to my B list, so I've penciled in the XX-1L as the main contender for replacement.
Does the XX-1L do all the groovy, tuney things you crave as well as give a full-range, refined presentation you'd expect from an expensive cartridge? (I've heard Vuk's but his Prefix and 52 probably could make a rusty nail sound good.)
Also, are you a K or S man? If you're a K'er like Kevin and Vuk, I'll take that as a sign from Zeus and I'll stop searching ebay for used S boards for my 102.
One more thing... what height of spacer are you using?
Joe
quote:
What's your view of the XX-1L now that you've had it for a few weeks? My Karma still has several hundreds of hours left on it but it will eventually crap out. I'm too cheap to seriously consider a new Te Kaitora and your experience with the LydianB has moved that cartridge to my B list, so I've penciled in the XX-1L as the main contender for replacement.
I really like it - it certainly matches my system better than the Lydian B. Kans have what can best be described as a bit of a reverse LP12 response curve - they have a slight suck out in the upper bass to balance the LP12 hump, I found the quite forward and ultra dynamic Lydian B to sound a bit over lean when partnered with my P9 in this situation.
The XX1L is a very warm and gentle cartridge that sits very well in the context of my particular system. It is a very musical cartridge that tracks exceptionally well, though I am not convinced it is actually qualitatively better than the Lydian B, it just fits my system much better - if I still had either the Isobariks or the Tablette Sigs, then I may well prefer the sheer punch and lean tight bass of the Lydian B. I still have the Lydian B with about 70% mileage left on it if you want it cheap.
quote:
Does the XX-1L do all the groovy, tuney things you crave as well as give a full-range, refined presentation you'd expect from an expensive cartridge?
Yes it is very good. It is not as explosively dynamic as the Lydian, and has a far lower output (which probably goes some way to explain that), though it has a very open and easy to listen presentation that I really like - it puts all my Blue Note albums back in the running - they sounded to thin with the Lydian / Kan combo. They sound fabulous now. The XX1L takes a bit of time to warm up, about a side or so, but so does the Lydian so nothing strange there.
quote:
Also, are you a K or S man? If you're a K'er like Kevin and Vuk, I'll take that as a sign from Zeus and I'll stop searching ebay for used S boards for my 102.
God, I can't remember which I have in at the moment - I will check when I get home. I have tried both for quite some while, and the ones that are in are the best. I have a set of rev 3 Ks and a set of re-capped rev 4 S boards.
quote:
One more thing... what height of spacer are you using?
2mm - to me this looks about right for the majority of vinyl. If it dips down slightly one way, it dips toward the bearing end of the arm, I have never heard a cartridge sound good with VTA out the other way.
Tony.
quote:
Theoretically, the optimum should be 3.4mm, so perhaps you are a bit low at the back to get the right amount of slam?
Using whos theory? 3.4mm would to my eyes very obviously be out the wrong way with everything this side of an acetate.
Don't get me wrong, the Dynie is dynamic, its just if you were to hear the Lydian B you would understand my comments.
Tony.
quote:
You've heard the cartridge twice at my place--why do you need Tony to tell you about it?
I'm an unofficial member of the Tony Lonorgan fan club, and it gives me great comfort to know the thoughts of his powerful mind. Each day I sit in front of my monitor with a cup to catch the pearls of wisdom as they drop from his posts.
That and the fact that Tony's heard the LydianB, which neither of us has, so he's in a better position to say if the XX-1L is THE cartridge to get at the price.
Joe
quote:
I still have the Lydian B with about 70% mileage left on it if you want it cheap.
Thanks but I'll keep the Karma until it craps out then look into getting an XX-1L. With you, that makes at least four happy guys I (virtually) know with p9s and XX-1Ls, so it looks like a synergistic combo and the one I should get.
By the way, you should be able to get decent money for the Lydian on ebay. I see no imminent shortage of clowns who'll pay top dollar for used cartridges. Let 'em know it was once used by the legendary General V. Nutter to play a Liverpool pressing of the White Album and that'll add at least $100 to the bids.
Joe
quote:
It's the difference in height between Rega cartridges (optimised for Rega arms) and the XX-1L.
The 3.4-mm spacers are exactly what you'd need if -- and this is a big if -- the stylus rake angle of Rega cartridges is the same as that of the XX-1L.
There, I've done my bit for paranoia. 
Joe
[This message was edited by Joe Petrik on WEDNESDAY 03 January 2001 at 18:34.]
i have since moved up through IBL's, then to my current speakers -- SBL's. i love my sbl's -- ever since they were installed properly by grahams. i dont miss isobariks, but i am curious how they would sound in my now 52/supercap based system, with a geddoned/prefixed/aro lp12.
i still have my kan I's, in our lounge. my system shares my office -- too many curious little hands in the lounge.
another question: what does it mean when speakers "honk"? may be i like honking speakers all this time and i simply didnt know.
enjoy...
ken
I didn't say you were suffering from dealer (in)expertise but you do have the incorrect weight. I've sold literally close to one-thousand Rega turntables and installed well over that in initial cartridges and replacements. This includes almost every brand of cartridge under the sun that people brought in as well as models I sold. I've learned table/arm/cartridge set-up from talking to Roy Gandy and Ivor (and JV). Of all the turntables and cartridges I've set-up, I have THOUSANDS of satisfied customers and friends. Rega make three size weights; light, standard (which you're using), and extra-heavy. The extra heavy is probably a special order item unless the dealer sells dozens of Planars a week. Please don't insult Roy Gandy by thinking you can make your own counterweight. He has heard all the mods and imitations of his products years ago and knows enough to have built a successful business based on manual turnables in the age of CD and the internet!! I didn't mention your cartridge alignment in the previous post because it is too late in the life of your cartridge to change it. You MUST align your cartidge to the Rega "protractor" as well as using the largest size weight possible to achieve optimum performance. I'm sorry if I am able to see from a photo that you have a mis-installed cartridge and the wrong weight but it is the truth. If you doubt it, contact Roy Gandy himself.
Rega Turntable Guru,
Ron The Mon
quote:
what does it mean when speakers "honk"?
It means Vuk has set them up wrong!
Tony.
quote:
Frank Abela's shop sold me this counterweight and Kevin + Tony have the same one (with groove), so I don't think we are all mistaken.
Mine is indeed the exactly same as Vuk’s, does have the groove, and from the same source, and specified as the heavy Rega counterweight. It is slightly heavier than the one that came with the arm, and it is a slightly different shape.
Vuk, have you got anyway to weigh your counterweight, an accurate weight of ours would clear this all up conclusively. I only have bathroom scales, and they are far to depressing things to go near.
Alternately, if Frank is out there I am sure he would be able to clarify this. The shop he works for is a respected and helpful Rega / Naim dealer, so I very much doubt anything remotely fishy is going on.
Tony.