Mother of all Demos - Linn vs. Naim

That's not ideology speaking - it's my experience that the source-end of the chain is more important. The one time I agonized over and chose an amp upgrade over a preamp upgrade was when I started too far down the chain.

Another approach is to determine what you want to change in your current system, and go after that,

Phil

Arie

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but why not take your Kans to York and use them? I'm sure SO won't have a problem with that
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I moved close to York a couple of years ago and have been to the Sound Organisation a few times. They are an excellent group of people. If they objected to this idea I'd eat my hat. Do it, it's sound advice if you have doubts about the loudspeakers.

As an aside, I started with LP12/42.5/110/Kans in 1985 and upgraded the Kans to Epos 14's (after a mistake with Sara's). I then upgraded to 32.5/160 and was happy for ages (still using it). People may say I did that the wrong way around but it was ok for me.

I'll be interested in reading your thoughts after the dem'

Brian

[This message was edited by Bri on SUNDAY 22 October 2000 at 08:33.]

[This message was edited by Bri on SUNDAY 22 October 2000 at 14:28.]

Linn Ikemi/Kairn/Klout & 240's with complete cabling sets from Cardas, Siltech and Linn.

Naim 102/180/CDX.

Apart from being A LOT more expensive (even without the cabling!) the Linn system doesn't even come close to even match the Naim set, let alone better it as it should taking the much higher price onto account.

Although performing nice'n easy on all standard 'audiophile criteria' (yeah right, yawn) the Linn system failed to deliver life and engagement to the music, regardless the genre. Without having listened to the Naim system it bored me only after a few hours.

What a revelation the Naim system was! While a little less refined on some small details it was so extremely convincing and alive that it was nothing less than shocking. Energy, dynamics with a tremendous sense of 'being there'. Nothing new to old Namies but jaw-dropping for me... When the LK240 is supposed to have 240 ponies on tap the NAP180 must have at least 500 ;-)

BTW, I did prefer the Klout over the LK240 sounding much more natural, better flowing and with better staging. The 240 sounds a bit tighter and more controlled. The Klout did collapse on my Sonus Faber's when pushed (as a lot of amps do). The 240 held on longer but both were outclassed by the NAP180. I didn't managed (or dared actually) to push the NAP to it's edge as I was feared for my ears and a permanent war with my neighbours. Amazing...

Richard.

Several points :

1. Linn have a new line of loudspeakers, with the Keilidhs also replaced by another supposedly better speaker, forgot his name (but I think it was something with a "k" ). "Katan", BTW, is a brilliant variation over the Kan/Tukan names, it means "small" in hebrew.

2. Frank has several times said that the Ikemi suits the Linn amps better, so I would try and have a naim source. It is also not close to the Mimik in its nature, so best bring your Mimik. I saw in my own bare eyes that S.O. in York have the 5 series, maybe try it with a CD5 ?

3. The Mimik (esp. version I of it) is really outclassed by a pre such as the 82, and there's a possibility that you'll prefer the less revealing amps because of this, so have that in mind, though I think the other strong points of the good pre should take care of that.

4. Try and listen to a dual-hicapped 82, it's quite a difference, some people don't like the 1-hicapped 82.

Omer.

BTW, anyone heard the new Linn speakers ???

Thanks for the advice. The reason I cannot take my Kans is because I'm having a job interview beforehand with this fantastic telecomms start-up company www.skylarc.co.uk

The Mimik is a MkII and find it a great player.

Interesting that "Katan = small" in Hebrew. I will let you all know the outcome - particularly for those that are interested in what the Katan is like.... other than (from what someone told me) it being Taiwanese...

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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[This message was edited by Andrew Randle on SUNDAY 22 October 2000 at 23:58.]

Maybe Katan is short for Katan Sheli, which if my Hebrew is correct translates as 'my little one', an affectionate name for one's male member, Shmock?

Bob.

BTW, best wishes to all the Israeli contributors, it must be difficult times at the moment. I was there during the Yom Kipur war.

Shame, because I've been looking forward to trying out Israel.

Andrew Randle
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quote:

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Maybe Katan is short for Katan Sheli, which if my Hebrew is correct translates as 'my little one', an affectionate name for one's male member, Shmock?

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Exactly ! it's an affectionate name, mainly referred to one's own member. I think a letter to Ivor is next, damn, this hurts my feelings !

Thanx Bob and Andrew, we here hope for both people a better future than this. If you come here and wish to see some of the remains please let me know.

Omer.

PS Bob, what the hell did you do here in '73

I wonder if the new Katans will be known as Kocks? I'm sure Ivor will be thrilled to hear all this! ;-)

In '73 I was hanging out in Tel Aviv & Kfar Yona.
I'd just finished my 'O' levels & was playing bass in a few venues in Dizingof & Ben Yeheuda.

I was staying in Tel Aviv at Yorday Hassira.

I have spent a lot of time in Israel, but have not been back for quite a few years. My best friend from school days has a recording studio in Tel Aviv & I plan to get back there in the not too distant future.

Bob.

If you only wanted to spend LK240 money, then listen to an LK240, and then compare against a 180. But it wouldn't really be correct to compare an 82 competitor to a 72.

To make the test really fair, you could insist on different make speakers. The problem is that no matter which speakers you use, they'll work better with one system than another. Therefore you could argue that you should compare a full Naim system against a full Linn system. i.e CDX/82/hicap/250/Intros vs Ikemi/Kairn/Klout/Katans on stands. These would be pure Linn vs pure Naim and you would be able to make a true evaluation of which presentation you prefer.

I heard the Katans for the first time on Saturday ont he end of a Linn Classik. This little system just boogied and rocked. It was great fun. When the Katans were setup with just a little toe-in they sounded great. There was very little colouration or box resonance even though they have a small port.

I have to say I was very impressed with these diminutive little boxes. They were a lot of fun. Anyone in the market for a £600 standmounter should give them a go. They're beautifully finished, very solid, and Oh my God I'm recommending a Linn product:). Anyway, given the lack of colouration, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they worked very well in a Naim system after all, so I shouldn't be too worried about them flying the Linn flag that much. If it bothers you, then ask for a pair of Intros to be brought in for a direct Linn/Naim comparison.

Regards,
Frank.

Glad someone else agrees--heard both of the above at my dealers and thought them a great improvement over the Tukan (which I always liked) and the Keilidh. Seems Linn has rediscovered tune and been able to combine it with a high level of neutrality. Heard both off a Nait 5/CD5 and it both boogied and sounded good.

Cheers,

Bob

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Anyone in the market for a £600 standmounter should give them a go.

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Frank,

Sounds like Linn is trying to ruffle a few feathers over at Royd. Isn't the Sorcerer also priced at £600?

Joe

Funny how Naim has the tapering on the NBLs and then Linn decides to come out with the same... coincidence?

This demo sounds very promising now that Bob, Frank and Borje have put my mind at ease.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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In terms of your demo, it would seem to be fairer, or more sensible to be comparing CDX/82/Hicap/250 to the Ikemi/Kairn/Klout

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Frank

I did this comparison today with Ninkas at the end and the Linn system won hands down. I actually thought that the Ninkas sounded more "right" with the Classic than with the Naim kit. This was a first for me since I have always preferred the Naim kit in this shop.

My dealer thought that there is some kind of mismatch between Ninkas and Naim gear. (Impressive engineering if it is done on purpose!)

I visited because a friend of mine wanted speakers to his Classic. We compared Ninkas and Intro II. Intro II was streets a head in attitude and presence but they gave everything a slightly stressed, restless feel. My friend chose the Ninkas because they were much more all-round but a little lame compared to The Intros. Classic and Ninkas do make a very impressive sound for the money and his idea is to try to get some attitude with Mana under the Classic and the new foot or Mana under the speakers.

/Tomas

Linn introduced the 5140 in 1996, quite a while before the NBL came out. Also, I doubt the two companies are designing against each other--they probably are aware of what the other is doing, as you would any competitor, but that is probably it.

Cheers,

Bob

I was specifically referring to the cabinet shape Andrew asked about to remind him Linn did it before the NBL was originally released. Obviously the speakers are hardly comparable in any other sense, other then they both have very nice finishes.

Cheers,

BobŸ

did you also listen to the ninkas?
If so, how do you rate them in comparison with the competitors : credos, proac 125, and AV5140/kabers and why not SBLs (after all they are both 2-way speakers) ?

regards

Jean-christophe
(I own kabers ,
I appreciate tukan and proac response2.5
I don't like AV5140
I haven't heard neither credos nor 125 (nor SBL since 1990)

I'm running out of ideas on speakers - having used Keilidhs for 7 years, and tried Credos (brilliantly open mid, but too uneven, and brittle in the treble); Kef Ref 2 and 2-2 (too disjointed between bass and mid, and still box-constrained, though imaging and midrange detail spectacular); SBLs (see previous threads about bass, and visually very 80s); and some small Spendors (lovely mid, no real balls). I went back to the Keilidhs just because they're smooth and easy to live with.

Maybe Naim could eventually replace both the Credos and SBLs with a mini-NBL at £2K...

It's interesting that the blurb on the Ninka describes 4 modes of operation - single wire passive, biwire passive, biamped active and triamped active - but not biamped passive! The implication seems to be that the clever circuit board/socketry on the rear of the Ninka does it all for you. I always thought an active Xover had to sit between pre- and power-amps.

Also interesting that 2 dealers I've talked to have described the sound of the Ninkas as much more 'open' than that of the Keilidhs (they would, wouldn't they?). However, I'm warming to the idea - if they're 25% better (and they look 100% better), they'd be worth changing to. They've even included base-boards this time!

There is only way in which your Linn speakers can be activated with the Naim amps.

I don't know if this is still the case, but Linn offered a separate box (with power supply) that the active cards can be installed in.

The box can then be placed between the pre and power amps. So, physically it would work, but I don't know whether the solution works sonically.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
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