Fox hunting

"The protestors should all stop whinging. It achieves nothing. They have done nothing for their cause and possibly alienated the authorities."

So what are the legitimate means available to the authorities to stop them whinging?

By "alienated the authorities" I take it you mean that next time they demonstrate they'll be shot, and not merely beaten across the head.



Regards,

Steve.

Just a few thoughts

1. I always worry when issues are painted in "primary" coulours (ie presented as simple black/white) issues...notwithstanding that at some point in the proceedings a choice between (two??) alternatives must be made

2. In its "raw" form, nature entails predation..ie some animals are "designed" to survive by killing and eating others...this is natural

3. I understand that the birth rate of foxes is governed by food supply...this suggests to me that foxhunting is likely to be pointless as a means of controlling the fox population

4. I also understand that foxes are bred specifically with the aim of releasing them and providing sport for foxhunters

5. I have always been aware of the danger of "democracy" trampling on the "rights" of the minority.....just because the majority think something is right does not make it so (just take a vote on the value of expensive hi-fi kit!!)

After consideration of all the points above, together with issues such as the way we raise animals for food consumption (ie factory farming of chickens etc)..which merit action in their own right.. I have to come out very strongly out in favour of a total ban.

I found the reports last night of the demonstrations by the pro-hunting lobby quite nauseating...I wonder how many of these protesters were pro-police when the Poll Tax demonstrations , or the fuel demontrations occurred

In addition, I think it quite reasonable to make use of the Parliament Act to force the issue. The Lords have rejected this Bill a number of times, and the Commons have reconsidered. If Parliamentary democracy means anything at all, then the will of the Commons MUST prevail here. Any arguments against using the parliament Act must also by definition imply that our current democracy isn`t sufficiently democratic (not my opinion...I am avidly anti- proportional representation...if for no other reason than it is strongly supported by the Lib Dems, whose political standpoint I find utterly detestable) .......in which case there would be an overwhelming case for reforming it

Laurie S

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
If the toffs can enjoy watching innocent animals killed in a mindless and pointless act of barbarism why can't the working classes.

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What about the middle classes? If they're going to ban fox hunting, shouldn't they ban lepidoptery?

Steve

Rasher,

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There is no getting away from the fact that it is class linked.

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Canada (where I've lived for 35 years) and the U.S. (where I've been for the past 4) both have rich and poor and lots in between -- as well as some semblance of class "structure" -- but I have to confess I don't have a handle on class differences that exist in the UK.

Is class in the UK about money or about being born in the right area to the right family?

Joe

Class is the same everywhere. You either sell your labour to the owners of the means of production, or you own the means of production.

OK, I'm simplifying, but old Chazz Marx got the basics right. It's an economic definition, nothing to do with what people think about their social status, how many holidays they have, whether they own their own house, or whatever.

Of course fox-hunting is partly a class issue, no sense denying it. And there's nothing wrong with a bit of class hatred, it's an entirely healthy thing. There's not enough of it nowadays, too many people seem to have swallowed the myth that class doesn't exist any more.

-- Ian

Regarding fishing, I'm all for it if the death is quick and the fish is eaten.

The same goes for fox-hunting...

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The Hi-Fi Doctor

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So the purpose of hunting is purely to maintain a healthy population of foxes and not to remove a highly predatory pest. Who'd a thought.

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Can't see where I said that myself!! But the fact is most young healthy foxes escape from the hunt.

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Maybe so, but you still have to be fcuked in the head to support or continue to allow what is nothing but an extremely cruel "sport" whether it's done by the masses or some silverspooned poncy wankers

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I assume then you are anti-angling, Shooting (animals for sport) etc etc.

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I'm in principle opposed to fox hunting due to its pointless cruelty and pleasure derived from watching an animal suffer.

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As stated Before the Foxes suffer less than most other forms of control, and the plesure isn't derived from watching an animal suffer. 95% of those taking part in the hunt will never see the fox never mind see it 'ripped appart'

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I know of 2 families that are Country types, horses and hunting are what they do. I am not their type thank god, but I am aware that they are outwardly racist. OK, it's stereotypical easy target stuff, but it is a fact and it is not a surprise to me. It goes with the right wing terror-tory (sorry). It really does! It really really does!

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This barely warrants a response. I know a few Black families and their kids are theives, really what do you expect from the blacks!!!.

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4. I also understand that foxes are bred specifically with the aim of releasing them and providing sport for foxhunters

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To my knowledge this doesn't happen, However, Phesants are certainly bred to be released to be shot!

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If the toffs can enjoy watching innocent animals killed in a mindless and pointless act of barbarism why can't the working classes.

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Err Angling again, anyone.

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but old Chazz Marx got the basics right

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trouble is...he got most of the rest completely wrong

laurie S

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Regarding fishing, I'm all for it if the death is quick and the fish is eaten.

The same goes for fox-hunting...

Andrew

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But lets face it, how many Anglers eat their catch!

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As stated Before the Foxes suffer less than most other forms of control, and the plesure isn't derived from watching an animal suffer. 95% of those taking part in the hunt will never see the fox never mind see it 'ripped appart'

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Then why not drag hunt? I assume you've never been there when a group of fox hunters cheer and shout as the dogs rip a fox apart?

My girlfriend sabbed when she was at university and I've seen the videos they took of this 'sport'. I also nursed her through trauma and a broken hand after some hunter on horseback tried to run her down - she wasn't in his way, he just didn't like her being there filming.

Stephen

Joe,

SideShowBob has it about right on class in that it comes down to an economic thing relating to ownership and the like. In this sense it's universal and comes down to a truism favoured by my old boss which roughly said "In life there are only two types of people: the Fuckers and the Fucked".

However, to understand class in the social sense (as in, when it's pronounced clarse) you really must read some Nancy Mitford and in particular "Noblesse Oblige: an Inquiry into the Identifiable Characteristics of the English Aristocracy" in which she sets out the tell tale signs of U and non-U behaviour.

From this you will gather a number of fascinating facts:

-- If someone says "bike" they are U, if they say "cycle" they are non-U.

-- The U term for people from Scotland is "Scotch" not "Scots". This makes the whole of Scotland non-U as they insist it's the other way around.

-- Working class socialists like myself are fine upstanding people on whom our great country is built.

-- The middle classes and in particular jumped up members of the merchant classes like Mick are utterly beneath contempt and should be obliged to move to America or somewhere equally abominable.

Hope this clears it up.

Matthew

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Then why not drag hunt? I assume you've never been there when a group of fox hunters cheer and shout as the dogs rip a fox apart?

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They can and do drag hunt, and I'm sure that's what will happen in most areas when the ban comes in.

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I also nursed her through trauma and a broken hand after some hunter on horseback tried to run her down

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I'm sorry that your girlfriend got hurt. I also know of horses with gashed legs Due to Sabbs putting Rasor wire and broken bottles in the path of a hunt, and several instances of Masters being beaten up by gangs of masked Sabbs. Unfortunetely as is the case in this type of conflict both sides tend to go too far from time to time.

Regarding class, I find it is no longer as easy as about which family or how much money. I have a good friend who was a crusty hippy living in a squat at the time I met him. It turned out that he comes from "very good stock" as my mother would have called it. In this age, it's more about who you choose to stand next to.

All running around the mullberry bush as per usual, Justifying 1 Fox's/Animal's death in this State Sanctioned manner is one too many, do you understand this, THIS IS THE QUESTION ? & ONLY THIS:

Innit:

Greeny,

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I assume then you are anti-angling, Shooting (animals for sport) etc etc.

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My general rule of thumb is that the greater an animal's sentience and intelligence, the more its welfare should be considered and protected. So, for example, I'm far more opposed to whaling, bull fighting and trophy hunting of gorillas than to, say, angling than, say, to fly swatting. But regardless of an animal's sentience and intelligence, I'm opposed to cruelty for cruelty's sake, and in my view fox hunting is plainly cruel as is sport shooting. Personally, I don't fish, but I'm not bothered by people who do as long as they kill the fish quickly and humanely and eat what they catch.

(I define animal the way a zoologist would -- any living thing that's not a plant, fungus, protist or bacterium. In other words, the term covers everything from jellyfish, to crabs, to insects, to fish, to birds, to mammals, to Mick.)

By the way, I try my best to put my beliefs into practice -- I'm a vegetarian and eat eggs only from happy chickens (the free-range variety). I also avoid leather. In fact, my spiffy new shoes are made of hemp.

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Matthew,

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Hope this clears it up.

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So you’re saying that Scotch can be either a drink *or* a people?

Joe

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Originally posted by Joe Petrik:
Is class in the UK about money or about being born in the right area to the right family?
Joe

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It depends what class you belong to...

The upper class - i.e. the aristocracy - forms such a small percentage of the population that it is basically irrelevant as a class.

The upper middle class, although traditionally consisting of salaried professionals, is best defined in terms of of its strongest cultural idiosyncracies:
(1) A sometimes patronising admiration for the working class.
(2) The fact that anyone who is vulgar enough to describe themself as "upper middle class" instantly ceases to be.

(Sadly, the children of the upper middle class are not allowed to resign from the upper middle class, thus being permanently labelled as "that upper class *&^*%%$" by their factory floor colleagues).

The uppity middle class consists of primarily of people who think that by virtue of their high incomes (achieved through buying and selling things) that they are upper middle class. And, of course, they are: they're the new upper middle class. But don't tell the old upper middle class - they really don't want to know.

The lower middle class consists of everyone who couldn't get into one of the other classes.
Be suspicious of anyone who claims to be lower middle class - they're almost certainly an undercover journalist.

The working++ class consists of professionals (mostly in software) whose parents (or, in extreme cases, great grandparents' next door neighbours) were from working class backgrounds. Although they are considered to be upper middle class by everyone else, they themselves are smugly and irritatingly proud of being working class.

The working class (as defined by occupation) is in terminal decline. Working class culture, however, is alive and well, and it has been estimated that 99.375% of the population will consider themselves to be working class by the year 2247.

The fox hunting class - also known as "the unspeakables" - is not spoken of in polite society.

(None of the above is true: the truth is far more complicated and nonsensical).

[This message was edited by JeremyD on Thu 16 September 2004 at 19:25.]

Chaps

Hunting is finished, no whys or wherefors, it is history. The democratic process must be respected.

On a personal level, I support hunting but I have to say the hunting fraternity gave a good protest a couple of years ago at Hyde Park and then sat on their laurels. They have since mounted a totally useless and ineffective campagne and deserved to lose. They were as much use as the dipsticks who wasted their time whinging in Tralfargar square about the Iraq invasion.

I hope this illustrates how pointless bleating gets you nowhere. It may make you feel good but that is all. At the end of the day you lose. No one respects bums who lose.

A few thousand people will now lose their jobs etc and they are the real losers and no one really cares.

C'est la vie

Mick

On the subject of class can anyone explain to me the pre-Blair (and I suspect post-Blair) Old Labour thing which went: "My great-grandfather was a miner, my grandfather was a miner and my father was a miner. I am therefore ideally equipped to run the country."

Steve

Patrick,

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But chasing animals around the countryside with packs of dogs and (often) drunken people on horses, before killing them under the pretence* of 'pest control', seems barbaric in this day and age.

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Exactly... not to mention its being inefficient. If pest control is the issue, surely there are smarter, more humane ways of dealing with the problem.

Joe

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However, to understand class in the social sense (as in, when it's pronounced _clarse_) you really must read some Nancy Mitford and in particular "Noblesse Oblige: an Inquiry into the Identifiable Characteristics of the English Aristocracy" in which she sets out the tell tale signs of _U_ and _non-U_ behaviour.

From this you will gather a number of fascinating facts:

-- The _U_ term for people from Scotland is "Scotch" not "Scots". This makes the whole of Scotland _non-U_ as they insist it's the other way around.

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Aye right - she's talking out of her (cl)ass.

Scots - the people of Scotland.
Scotch - the drink.

END OF STORY

I agree fox control should be in place but not using the hounds and horses.

Whilst the security breach in the Commons (biggest misnomer ever) was worrying, it was hilarious seeing our MP's bricking themselves !!

This is all a bit academic....the ban will soon be legislation, one or two dipsticks will protest and end up in prison and the rest will just give up and accept it.

It is history.

No point in worrying about it any more.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by Joe Petrik:
Patrick,

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But chasing animals around the countryside with packs of dogs and (often) drunken people on horses, before killing them under the pretence* of 'pest control', seems barbaric in this day and age.

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Exactly... not to mention its being inefficient. If pest control is the issue, surely there are smarter, more humane ways of dealing with the problem.

Joe

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Joe/Patrick,

this is the central issue. It IS barbaric. You'd be mad to argue that it wasn't. But what is the more humane method ? I don't think this is a difficult question to answer. Surely someone must know ? Greeny and Tom seem to know what they're talking about. One suggests the dogs, one suggests the gun.

My gut feeling is that the fox population regulates its own numbers and is in fact necessary to clear up dead birds, control rat/vole/rabbit numbers etc, but IF they need to be killed, then the dogs do a brutal, but quick job. Poison, trapping (christ, think about THAT for a second) or guy with a (very) powerfull gun wandering around trying not to shoot ramblers and not leave a wounded fox.

What's the answer ? Anybody ?

Brian OReilly

Long-time-dead said "Scots - the people of Scotland.
Scotch - the drink. END OF STORY"

Arguing with La Mitford is just the sort of uneducated, classless behaviour one would expect from a Scotch.

Matthew

Thank you Matthew.

Scots - Yes
Uneducated - No

Enjoying my Highland Park at the moment - that's Scotch to the uneducated......

Can we can trust what Matthew says when he likes his herbs this much, and lies about his age...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29222&item=6927644434


Scots mist, probably.