Man U v Arsenal

All the points have been covered on this subject, however yet again Henry went missing in a big game. Yes this man has great skill but when it comes to the big game whether for france or the gooners he cant produce. If i was a gooner i would be more concerned about this than the result.

Well I am a gooner and I am most concerned about this fighting in the tunnel. If there's going to be a fight you'd think they would have the decency to have it on the pitch so we can all enjoy it...

Hopefully, the evil Van Nostrilhair will get his comeuppance for trying to break Ashley Cole's knee cap, again. That's three out of the last four games he should have been sent off.

BTW I would have saved that penaltly. If Lehmann had half a brain he'd have known it'd be rolled gently and low to the right given last year's effort.

Agree about Henry. I wouldn't play him in away games where its obvious the tactic will be to kick the shit out of him. He finds it all too distasteful to get involved until the final whistle's blown.

Yes poorly!



Regards


NB

I think it says something about the state of our national sport when the most interesting 'match' was in the players' tunnel afterwards

I thought that Mike Riley was shocking.
Ferdinand should have gone early doors. Gary Neville lucky his assaults on Reyes were not punished earlier. The two penalty decisions were wrong, though the outcome was the same - one penalty awarded. Then again, Arsenal have been too good for too long so about time they lost IMHO.

And changing tack a little while still focusing on refs.
A few years back Graham Barber reffed Leeds v Man U at Elland Rd. During this game Barthez kicked Ian Harte in an off the ball incident. A penalty was awarded. Barthez was not sent off and saved the penalty. Later a Wes Brown own goal was disallowed for being offside. What could have been 3-1 to Leeds ends up 1-1. Leeds miss out on the Champions League by a single point.
Did that referee cost Leeds a place in the Champions League and would the money from a second season in the Champions League have saved Leeds from their present financial plight? Maybe not, but it shows what bad decisions from referees may possibly lead to.

And that, IMO, is the only other interesting aspect of this topic - how many nicknames does van Nistelrooy have?

Quite a few in my household.

Another lay persons perspective.

1) As a game and a spectacle it was appalling. The two "best" teams in Britain afraid to let the other side play. Nuff said!!!

2) Contrary to assertions made by ex-refs, Riley did not have a good game. I suspect that all five cards could have been avoided if there had been a yellow for the first offence. Instead we got half an hour of simmering violence that eventually took its toll on all concerned.

3) Neither side seems to appreciate that as they subsequently mud-sling it is both themselves and English fotball that they drag further into the mire.

4) Phil Neville should not have been booked but Gary, Rooney, Bergkamp and Viera should all have been off. The first two for deliberately going through Reyes and the latter for persistent dissent (plus a stamp from Patrick) and Bergkamps appalling flailing elbow late on.

5) Only people so wrapped up in their own subjectivity could believe that it was not a penalty.

First, there was contact. The laws of the game do not require an analysis of how much.

Second, there was intent. What exactly was Campbell intend on doing by reaching out his left leg after Rooney had twisted away from him? It sure as heck wasn't a tackle but his leg clearly shot out and, at that angle, there could only have been one purpose.

Third, maybe Rooney did go to ground quickly but then replay it at full speed (or better still play some football and try repeating it)or place the same incident on a wing and most objective bystanders would have basically said it was a blatant leg out with no intent other than to take the player. Also, play that incident out on the wing at that speed and I don't think anyone would have been crying about Rooney going to ground then.

6) Neither side takes any credit from the game and neither club or manager does either.

Mike

Quote "Neither side takes any credit from the game and neither club or manager does either."

Speaking as a ManU fan, I totally agree.

Both managers for years have condoned poor discipline and behaviour by their players.

It is pathetic to hear both of them now trying to claim the moral high ground.

Steve D

Bollox. Rooney did a Pires. Please add Nostrilhair to your list of offs for trying to end Cole's career, again. Its a shame Man U haven't tried to play football against Arsenal for about 4 years now but an equal shame Arsenal bottle it, whinge and throw cuppasoups. Nonetheless, if that was a decent Champions League or International ref Man U would have had 8 players quite early on and Arsenal 9 by the end. Sorry, but we do occupy the moral high ground.

Alex,

If ManU were supposedly the worst offenders on Sunday, taken over the past 4 years it would be a dishonourable draw.

My point was that both clubs, in recent years, have had too many incidents of questionnable discipline. Both managers could, and should, have put an end to it.

Both are great managers, as judged by their achievements. Both have the same achilles heel when it comes to matters of discipline, honesty, and setting an example.

Neither team will occupy any kind of moral high ground until managers and players take full responsibility for their own actions both on and off the field (and in the tunnel!).

Steve D

I know the offences weren't in the same league, but has anyone sused out yet how horsehead gets a 3 match ban yet our revered england captain admits deliberately comitting a foul and getting himself book, yet nothing happens due to "insufficient evidence?!"

Paul

Steve, sorry, I just don't buy it. Man U start every game against Arsenal by kicking them; then Arsenal retaliate. Its the classic 'have to win the battle-earn the right to play' stuff. They know they can't win playing the beautiful game, hence our occupance of the moral high ground. Obviously, lots of teams try to kick Arsenal off the pitch but Manchester are the only team good enough to get close enough to do it.

BTW The funniest moment I ever saw in a game between the two was when the whistle blew to start the game and Norman Whiteside ran the whole length of the pitch and stamped on Steve Williams, breaking his foot. The ball and all the other players were at the other end of the pitch.

Alex,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Neither manager can be credibile whilst they continue to point the finger at each other, and not firstly at themselves. I acknowledge Arsenal's very recent improvement in disciplinary record, but it is just that - very recent.

The following extract from the Times sums things up well I think.

........"In some small way, it is comforting that Clough lived long enough to witness the final phase of Arsenal’s transformation under Wenger. Their football pedigree has never been in question, but one imagines that, until recently, Clough regarded them much as he did the Leeds United players whom he so angered, on the first day of his turbulent 44-day reign at Elland Road in 1974, by telling them that they should throw their medals away because they had “never won anything fairly”.

Similar accusations could have been levelled at Arsenal in the past, but not lately. While they continue earn to plaudits for an unbeaten Premiership sequence that now stands at 47 matches, five games beyond the record that was set by Clough’s Forest side, it is equally remarkable that 30 league matches have passed since they last had a player sent off. The improvement in their disciplinary record might be long overdue, after years of brawling and dissent, but it is also most welcome........".

Steve D

Alex,
Slightly off topic, but I watched Arsenal's second string beat a nearly full-strength Man City team last night. The average age of the Arsenal team was 20 I think, and I'd only heard of two names before.
Extremely impressive stuff, and a credit to Wenger's ability to spot talent early, and nurture it.
This used to be something Fergie was good at!
Steve D

Fabrigas looks like the next great central midfielder. They also have a 17 year old Swiss Centre half who is reputed to have the footballing skill of Rio and the physical size and strength of Campbell.

"This used to be something Fergie was good at!"

Fergie has never been good at spotting talent as his record on signings shows. His one great crop of youngsters was not realyl his doing either.

Matthew

Matthew,
Slightly unfair I think.

Fergie was responsible for buying Schmeikel, Keane, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Cantona, Van N Roy, amongst others, and he was partly responsible for the development of ManU's youth policy.

However, his more recent signings (eg Veron, Kleberson, Bellion, Djemba Djemba) have been poor, and the youth policy seems to produce only so far, without the final push to first team standard.

Steve D

Fabregas is truly astonishing for a 17 yr old. He always plays the simple but effective ball and I've never seen him loose possession. He should have played instead of Edu at Old Trafford (and Edu's not bad).

Senderos, the keeper, Lupoli and Hoyte all looked useful. Mind you, against Man City Cygan looked world class. KK looked really gutted at the end with dark mutterings about senior pros - Mills was crap for both goals.

Poor Robby Fowler scored his best goal for years because he fell over just before kicking the ball.

Steve, that list of Fergie's best signings is a catalogue of established players even when he bought them rather than unknown youth but I admit they all improved a lot once they got to United.

Alex,
You are quite right to point out that most were already "established" players. I was responding though to Matthew's rather bold statement that "Fergie has never been good at spotting talent".
Steve D

I don't think signing players my Gran had already heard of counts as talent spotting.

Plus if you look at a complete list (I can't find one online) in round figures Ferguson buys 5 to get 1 whereas Wenger buys 3 to get 2.

Man United's youth team has produced very little since the "Can't Win with Kids" generation. In contrast Wenger's youth team has been a priority and is packed with promising youngsters pushing for the first team. Wenger also introduced new ideas like full-time scouts in Spain, deep background checks and personality/character evaluations prior to signing, etc. The Reyes signing is a good example of a modern, professional, large value signing of an outstanding young player and is pretty much how to do it.

By contrast Fergie buys Renaldo after he skins Gary Neville a couple of times in a pre-season game which rather recalls him buying the applling Karol Poborsky after watching him on the telly in Euro 96.

Matthew

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex S.:
Cygan looked world class

---

I think we miss the point folks. Fergie continues to believe in a youth policy but the best Old Trafford years were prior to the departure of Eric Harrison who was the real talent spotter.

Recently it isn't so much that the talent isn't there; more that, after an entire generation (the Macken/Healy) lot were lost to other clubs because Utd. chose to buy continued success, youth players are less inclined to join or stay with Utd.

Fergies buying ability is as poor as his tactics (am I the only neutral that thinks that trophies were won despite his tactics rather than because of them - a certain 99 trip to Spain being the obvious example), as witness his current obsession with strikers when Utd. patently lack three creative midfield players to light the touch paper on what is their best defence and attack since the 91 team.

One wonders similar things about Wenger. His decision to play a cautious, unnatural game in Europe unravels them again and again. They only turned around their group qualification hopes when they started playing their natural game. One wonders if his scouting network will ever really comprehensively extend beyond Western Europe? Many of his purchases have been as dodgy as Fergie. His current achilles heel appears to be that, whilst he has the ability to spot midfielders who make good attackers, he can't spot a decent striker at all. Indeed he seems positively wary of them. Thus a series of second stringers to midfielder come striker Thierry Henry, who really haven't made the grade.

What I'd really like to see is Utd's defence with a midfield including Fabrigas and Reyes and Van Nistelrooy and henry up front. Now that would be a team.

Mike

PS: Alex, as a neutral who was at the game, behind the goal, and who clearly saw and heard the contact on Rooney and then went home to find that one of Sky's four camera angles captured the contact beautifully, nay perfectly - an image that has been reproduced for several papers already, I find your assertion of him doing a Pires somewhat laughable. I have no axe to grind. I was merely a neutral seeking entertainment whilst my team were not playing. That was as clear a penalty as you will ever see and I saw it.

Fabregas is even better than I thought. . .

Matthew/Alex

I apologise unreservedly.

Wenger is a god without equal and without fault. Under his leadership, Arsenal are, and always have been, the fairest, cleanest, collection of sporting individuals ever to have graced any football stadium.

By contrast, Fergie is just a lucky bullyboy whose success was entirely due to the team selection policy implemented by Matthew's Gran, and the billions of pounds paid as bribes to referees and opposing players.

I have now seen the light.

Come on you Gunners!

Steve D