Replacement car ...

Well Reductionist - your dilemma is compounded by a need for a rapid motor with decent fuel economy at a Mondeo price - even the Impreza would return a poor MPG, likewise with an Alfa which would meet your criteria but serve up less than 25Mpg.

If you weren't fussy about the mileage I'd advise a BMW 330 - the one I drove for 3 years was plenty quick at 200+ BHP and I averaged 32Mpg and that was thrashing it but you'd probably have to go for a model with 40-50,000 miles on the clock to get in your budget unless you went private.They're pretty bomb - proof so I wouldn't worry too much about the mileage.
Otherwise, the best mixture of price, performance and comfort would probably go to Saab, perhaps a 9-3 Aero? If you're buying scond hand they're a good bet as the residuals are shite so you'll get a lot of car for the money.
Then there's the "hot" Rovers but these might not be quite your image....

quote:

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Originally posted by jlfrs:
If you weren't fussy about the mileage I'd advise a BMW 330 - the one I drove for 3 years was plenty quick at 200+ BHP and I averaged 32Mpg and that was thrashing it but you'd probably have to go for a model with 40-50,000 miles on the clock to get in your budget unless you went private.They're pretty bomb - proof so I wouldn't worry too much about the mileage.

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One that hasn’t been neglected will shrug off miles and look better at six years than many cars look at three. The 5 Series is even better VFM, a 528/530 being a real wolf in sheep’s clothing. My 528 gives 32mpg in mixed driving – mainly motorway work. Not bad for an auto that'll still get to 60 in around 8 sec tops.

FWIW - and being very biased.

Cheers

Harry

Thanks so far, perhaps I should rate the importance of various issues.

I like the Golf, solid, pretty fast (4wd helps it no end compared to lesser variants), very good interior and quiet on long runs.
The 4wd doesn't help the boot space which is my biggest problem tbh and I don't thnk a roof box will help the fuel economy!

If the Subaru is big enough then the economy is less of an issue because it is offset by the handing and drivability. But I am concerned by the interior noise and quality, does anybody know if this is really an issue? ... oh and no nearby dealer.

I don't think I am loking at Mondeo money, maybe new Mondeo? The Subarus seem to come into this price bracket at this age. I guess the budget will end up being massaged anyway ... went in for a Nait and I now have this 82/180!

Hadn't considered a BMW. Will look on Autotrader now.

Rovers? Er, no thanks. To many horror stories.


>Will add something funny when I think of it.<

quote:

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Originally posted by reductionist:
But I am concerned by the interior noise and quality, does anybody know if this is really an issue? ... oh and no nearby dealer.

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I don't think anyone's bought a Suburu for it's quality interior It'll be quite a shock coming from a Golf. Great handling and performance though.....turn up the stereo and the squeaks seem to disappear at speed...

What about a 330d Touring? Bit more space in the back than the Golf, good economy/handling/performance/build. Should be able to find a decent one in your price range.

Jay

Well, it seems as though you appreciate the traditional Teutonic qualities of build, reliability and refinement in a package which is, how shall I say, understated?

An Impreza is far from refined though reliable.
It will give you stunning performance and space but you'll be pretty visible and anyone in an EVO will take you on at the lights,(and EVO is another car you could consider). The engine's great though intrusive and the interior is a joke. I can't help but think that you'll get annoyed with the rattles and flimsiness - the EVO is much better in this department. Ether are what I'd call "A - road" cars and not best for long journeys and sitting around in traffic on the school run or going to work.
In other words, I reckon an Impreza will have that "instant" exciteability but will disappoint in the "real world".The looks are a bit suspect as well,(IMO).
If anyone suggests a Jag X-Type 3.0 litre,(which has the 4 wheel drive thang going on), give it a miss - I had one for 6 weeks and it was dreadful - not a patch on their bigger cars and is nothing more than a trumped up Mondeo on which it's based IMO. At least a Mondeo is a very accomplished and honest car - the Jag ain't.
You didn't mention the Swedish contingent - Saabs and Volvos evoke love or hate emotions in most people but I thought the 9-3 a pretty good car, though too many buttons for me!
Lastly, you could look at a Lexus IS300 - a bit long in the tooth but well built, refined,4 wheel drive and a good package, plus poke a'plenty. Their reliability is excellent too though fuel consumption is questionable.

How about a bubble car for each of the family?

Dear Mr Reductionist,

I would think about a used BMW 5 series. It's a good choice.

regards

Dev

Dev, I've lost your email so I've sent you a PT.

Alex

If you are prepared to look at imports there are a couple of options which spring to mind;
The Mitsubishi Gallant VR4 (280bhp twin turbo V6) and the Subaru Legacy B4 (280bhp twin turbo flat 4). These are both well quick with great handling (the B4 was sorted by Porsche) but the fuel consumption will be poor but at least you avoid the image problems of driving a BMW.

Well,

you have set a hard task.

Good performance eg 200hp

Good fuel economy > 30mpg on motorway

VW Passat VR6 4Motion with all the trimmings and toys

Saab 9-3 AeroHot with all the toys and trimmings

Volvo V70 T5R AWD with all the toys and trimmings

Mondeo ST 220 Estate with all the toys and trimmings

Mercs Bm's do not do it for me. FAAAR TOOOO CoMMoN they are everywhere.

I have over the last 2 years had 2 great fun heaps.

Granada 2.9 4x4 big car very comfrotable with all the trimmings and toys. Good performance great handling for a barge and 29mpg on a good run. Had it for 5 years scrapped it at 130k with abs problems.

I replced it with a cheap as chips Sierra XR 4x4 2.9 with fsh and two owners.

One thing ford has got right with its cars is HEATED FRONT SCREEN, this is way more important than a heated rear screen.

What do i replace the XR 4x4 with. I will not MOT it next year due to the inevitable ABS problems. So will scrap it.

I have looked at ST 220 Saab 9-3 aerohot and Volvo V70 T5R AWD.

Yep i do like 4x4 and would really want it on my next car. But what ?

Ford did not do ST 220 with 4x4 even though Jag managed it but badly.

regards David

Hi reductionist

I recently looked at adding a 911 to replace my Golf Mk4 but decided to boost the cash into reducing my mortgage by a huge wadge.......... I intend to wait for the 911 until after I am mortgage free ! No compromise - it WILL be a 911.

Something I have seen is the S-Type Jag going for sub 20K and only about 1 year old. That's a lot to lose in the first year and I think it could be worth investigating. Not my ideal car, but you are looking for suggestions !!!

BMW's are nice - I looked seriously at the 330d. The 335d might crash values a little

Look at everything and decide for yourself - what is wrong with the Golf at the moment ????

Reductionist

Or in this case should it be "Enlarger". When you say bigger than a golf I assume you mean in the boot. In which case get an estate. Fast and fuel economy seems to mean diesel these days. I would have recommended a Saab 95 which I bought as a cheaper alternative to a 5 series touring but I have driven their diesel recently and it sounds like a truck.

CNC

Thank you all again, so much to look at!

AlexG:
Saabs are being well recommended. I thought they had lost some of their class and build because of the tie up with Vauxhall and therefore sharing some parts with the Vectra. Sounds like I am mistaken and I always enjoyed the ludicrous turbo shove from the 900 a friend owned.

David,
Agree about the 4x4 thing and I would like to keep it as well. But the choice is very low. I also agree with the Mercedes BMW quote. They are very common but somehow still manage to be expensive second-hand (BMW at least). This must say something about the cars quality? Rear wheel drive is next best to 4 after all.
btw I'd avoid the ST220. A friend has had nothing but expensive problems with his very low mileage (commutes by train) one.

long-time-dead,
The Golf is just too small. If we go away anywhere we need to ensure there is a cot and a highchair at that other end as they (even travel versions) won't fit in with all of the rest of the junk you need for a baby! This is hard for somebody who used to "throw a few bits in a holdall" and set off for a week!


I rode in a VW Touran yesterday, loads of space but then my right foot reminded me why there was no way in hell I'd buy one of those, unless they did a v6 (or 2litre turbo) 4motion one. If anybody from VW is listening please, pretty please?


Stupidly I also sat in a Audi All Road a very impressive car but a 2000 version was still £20000 admittedly with just 20000 miles and every single option (including displaying TV on the Sat Nav screen, why?) in the book!


>Will add something funny when I think of
it.<

The old 900 turbo's a great car (4 door hatch) - much better than any of the Vauxhall Saabs. I had three. The first 2 did over 250K, the 3rd I wrapped round a tree at over 80mph and got out without a scratch - fast tanks, but the fuel economy's piss poor, obviously. Parts are expensive but far-eastern facsimilies are easy to find at German/Swedish parts centres. You could buy one of the last made in mint condition for less than 5K.

quote:

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Originally posted by reductionist:
I also agree with the Mercedes BMW quote. They are very common but somehow still manage to be expensive second-hand (BMW at least). This must say something about the cars quality? Rear wheel drive is next best to 4 after all.

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BMW's are great quality but their main advantage is the great drive they offer. Every minute behind the wheel of mine is a minute well spent, but I am slightly bothered by fuel consumption, as mentioned before. If I ever score over 30 mpg I'll be happier than ever, and I'm not even a rushed driver.

quote:

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I rode in a VW Touran yesterday, loads of space but then my right foot reminded me why there was no way in hell I'd buy one of those, unless they did a v6 (or 2litre turbo) 4motion one. If anybody from VW is listening please, pretty please?

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Two reasons to get away from this car as fast as you can:

• The Touran interior is as exciting as your mother in law's underwear
  
• The engines you're begging for will give you much more noise than you should be looking for
  

Cheers,

Edo

If you stick with petrol, I don't see how one can match the performance of the Golf without paying at the pumps. I think that you need to go and have a drive in a decent diesel which has been run in, a BMW or Audi, to see if you're willing to put up with the inevitable rattle at startup for the performance and economy payoff for the rest of the drive. If you're not convinced then back to the drawing board and if you are, then that opens up many more possibilities. Remember that a 530d will better the Golf in every measure of performance and handling and still return up 50+mpg on the motorway. The VAG diesels are slightly less refined but return marginally greater economy and performance.

IMO A4, 3-series and 9-3 size cars are too small if you want to travel with kids and without roofbox. The back seats are pokey and once you've loaded cot and buggy there's little room for anything else in the boot. The estates of the above are no better, infact IIRC smaller with the seats up. I agree with Dev that you should be looking at 2-3 year old 530d or failing that a 525d. The boot is huge and importantly there is a lot of legroom in the back seat your kid won't be able to spend long journeys kicking the back of your seat and your missus won't hate you if she has to sit in the back to entertain your nipper. A diesel A6, saloon or avant also offers the above, acres of space fore and aft, stylish with a classy interior but slightly less performance and okish handling. Alternatively there's the V70 D5 which is pretty punchy, reasonably economical and cheaper than the above. Rear legroom is ok and handling like the Audi though the boot is of course huge.

I agree that the Touran interior is stupidly dull. I initially drove a petrol 1.6 and it was like driving through porridge with the handbrake on. Next time I drove one a 2.0tdi with DSG and it was a revelation, handled sharply, very swift and genuinely fun to drive. Closest I've come to saying ok to an MPV. I think that it was around the £20k mark though. http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=134

I am a bit irrational regarding Saabs - but last Sunday the 1996 900 Turbo did 36mpg on a trip from South Hants go Coventry and back

This was the GM style 900 rather than the classic.

The 9-5 Estate auto with a chipped engine to give 186 ish bhp does about 32 on long run but can creep down to 25 for town work.

The 9-5 took 4 of us and luggage quite comfortably to the Dordogne for a week in August

Derek

<< >>

quote:

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
I am a bit irrational regarding Saabs - but last Sunday the 1996 900 Turbo did 36mpg on a trip from South Hants go Coventry and back

This was the GM style 900 rather than the classic.

The 9-5 Estate auto with a chipped engine to give 186 ish bhp does about 32 on long run but can creep down to 25 for town work. The 9-5 took 4 of us and luggage quite comfortably to the Dordogne for a week in August

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Derek,

As much as I like the Saab looks and the Saab feeling of old times, I do think the 9-5 drives like a Vauxhall.

Cheers,

Edo

If you are after a funky looking MPV then what about the Seat Altea? It has the same underpinnings as the Touran but looks miles better - inside and out. I believe that a Sport Diesel model is either available or in the offing.

go older...

2000 audi a6 v6 tdi quatrro in black?

Avoid MPVs, you may as well get a van.

BTW my family of 5 fits in a Mk2 Golf so why can't your family of ? fit in a Mk4? Did you just have triplets? I don't understand why the middle-classes need a fleet of estate cars to take their kids to the inlaws.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
Avoid MPVs, you may as well get a van.

BTW my family of 5 fits in a Mk2 Golf so why can't your family of ? fit in a Mk4? Did you just have triplets? I don't understand why the middle-classes need a fleet of estate cars to take their kids to the inlaws.

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I don't fully understand it either, I just have one little (13months) girl!

We basically fill three bags, one small one with baby clothes, one medium one with toys + baby bits, one large one with our clothes, bedding and other baby bits. Then we have a large coolbag for baby specific food.

The large and the small + the buggy + coats fill the boot! Wife tends to sit in the back with the baby on longer runs. The remaing bags go in the front because legroom is so small (definitely no more than a mark 2 golf!) she needs both foot wells to avoid legs cramping up.

I guess things will improve as the baby eats more normal stuff and doesn't require so many odds and sods but Christmass, wrapped presents there and unwrapped back, is going to be a tight squeeze!


>Will add something funny when I think of it.<

[This message was edited by reductionist on Thu 11 November 2004 at 9:32.]

Just to add....

We've got one of the new Golf GT TDi's and a Subaru Sti.

The Golf has become the family car of choice: loads of grunt, 48-50 mpg and soooo much better to drive than than mk 3 or 4 Golf's (VR6 or otherwise). Also, the boot space is not far off the WRX 5 door. You can pick them up on the web for about £2K off (although stay clear of Virgincars as they're a waste of space).

The Subaru is a completely different beast and you can't really compare them. Whilst the Subaru is the better ultimate driving tool, for motorway work the Golf is quieter, more comfortable and cheaper. Having said that I wouldn't have any concerns about the build quality on the Subaru, they're very well screwed together, it's just that the fittings are much cheaper - all the money's gone on the chassis and engine.

Dave

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave J:
Just to add....

We've got one of the new Golf GT TDi's and a Subaru Sti.

The Golf has become the family car of choice: loads of grunt, 48-50 mpg and soooo much better to drive than than mk 3 or 4 Golf's (VR6 or otherwise). Also, the boot space is not far off the WRX 5 door. You can pick them up on the web for about £2K off (although stay clear of Virgincars as they're a waste of space).

The Subaru is a completely different beast and you can't really compare them. Whilst the Subaru is the better ultimate driving tool, for motorway work the Golf is quieter, more comfortable and cheaper. Having said that I wouldn't have any concerns about the build quality on the Subaru, they're very well screwed together, it's just that the fittings are much cheaper - all the money's gone on the chassis and engine.

Dave

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Thank you for your thoughts Dave,

Your comments on the Subaru with respect to its excellent drivability and noise during motorway cruising reinforces so many others.

I am surprised you rate the mark 5 so highly. I drove a 2.0FSi GT or similar and did not feel the handling was much different to my current vehicle once you discount the power advantage my Golf has. The v6 did have the independant rear suspension that made a huge difference between it and other mk4 Golfs. But I digress. I am trying to find out if there will be a "hot" mark 5 Golf estate at some point.

Failing that I will need something big and boring!


>Will add something funny when I think of it.<

I did have a go in the FSi and was not very impressed with the engine - apparently the turbo version in the forthcoming GTi is loads better. The new 2.0 diesel however was a revelation. Admittedly I don't drive it anywhere near as hard as the Subaru but the handling is much better than I had expected. Try one, once you get used to the characteristics of the diesel engine it's a real hoot.

Dave