Mahler's 1st

Posted by: Todd A on 16 October 2000

How many versions of this should I own? More importantly, which versions should I get?

Currently I own the following: Bruno Walter’s 1961 recording with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra on Sony (great, beautiful, and wonderful), the early 70’s recording by Kubelik and the BRSO on DG (quirky but outstanding), and the ’73 or so recording made by Mehta and the Israel Philharmonic (estimable though not profound).

Mike already suggested Inbal’s version on Denon, which I shall add to my list of potential purchases. Any other suggestions?

(I do know that I will have to get one of Bernstein’s versions eventually, though I’m not sure which one. I should probably also get a Klemperer recording. Probably Mengelberg, as well, some time down the road.)

Oh, by the way, I will mention Mahler in the same breath as Beethoven, at least concerning symphonic compositions. Beethoven is the master of all things symphonic (and perhaps even of all things piano sonata), but Mahler looms large over the last hundred years and at his best (symphonies 1, 6 and 9) is in the realm of Beethoven. He’s not quite as good, and certainly not as consistent (explain the 3rd and 8th symphonies, for instance), but he’s at least as close to Beethoven as Brahms or Haydn. I’ve read at least two posts where people are hesitant to put Mahler on the same level as Beethoven, but not I! (Let the excoriation begin!)

Posted on: 16 October 2000 by Former member

The DG Bernstein is, at the moment, my favourite version of the first; it is viscerally exciting and just so damn right (the Concertgebouw play like gods for him - they sound so rich toned in Mahler). I also like the first Solti recording with the LSO - much better than his later re-make with the Chicago Symphony which is far too tame and calculated.

As to whether Mahler's symphonies are as great as Beethoven's - what is tha point at this level of greatness of ranking composers? Just enjoy and marvel at their genius.

Cheers,

Kevin

Posted on: 16 October 2000 by Former member

I think the 8th is possibly the greatest, alongside the 2nd (which you also exclude) and 9th. His big mistakes were the 5th and 7th.

Anyhow, my favourite 1st on CD is one of Abaddo's first recordings when he was appointed to lead the Beriln Philharmonic, which is ironic because I was furious they had chosen him. There is also an interesting Kurt Masur (New York Philharmonic) disc on Teldec: interesting not because of the work in question, but the coupling of Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, sung beautifully and convincingly (although I can't say I ever bothered reading the words as I listened) by Håkan Hagegård--what ever happened to this guy? On vinyl, I'm a sucker for Horenstein's recording with the LSO on the Nonesuch label.

BTW--we had a nice big thread of all the symphonies on the old forum.

Vuk.

Posted on: 16 October 2000 by Todd A

Kevin, just wanted to write that I'm not ranking composers per se, just mentioning that Mahler should be considered a great composer along with Beethoven and not a few others. I've seen people afraid to make such statements. What a shame. And, oh how I marvel at the beauty.

And Vuk, I'm sorry I missed that thread. Must of caught the Naim bug a little too late.

Posted on: 16 October 2000 by Mike Hanson

I've got the Mahler thread archived. I'll post it to the new forum, as soon as it's ready. (We're working out the bugs right now.) Catch you later!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Smilies do not a forum make.

Posted on: 17 October 2000 by Igor Zamberlan

Vuk:

quote:
I think the 8th is possibly the greatest, alongside the 2nd (which you also exclude) and 9th. His big mistakes were the 5th and 7th

I happen to think that the Seventh is the "difficult" one (I know there's something in it, but I don't get it, or I get it only at times). The Fifth, I like it but it's not my favourite. That should be the 9th, judging from the number of versions I have. Or the Sixth.

But... from what I have heard, I had dismissed the 8th as bombastic pompier. Maybe the problem is in the versions I own (Gielen and Abbado).

Which is supposed to be a good one? Or, as is the Third's case, none will do, and you'll have to listen to it live to really appreciate it?

Regards
Igor
(just went yesterday night to a Herreweghe Bach cantatas concert )

Posted on: 17 October 2000 by Former member

Hi there!

I don't want to rate Mahler against any other composer. Personally I like his work a lot.

For the first Symphonie I cannot give any recommendations apart from the Kubelik (on DG Originals) simply because it's the only version I own. It's so well done that there was no need for a second version so far. But I'm already thinking of maybe getting on of the Bruno Walter recordings...

Some Mahler recordings I like particularly:

2nd Symphony: Klemperer, Bavarian RSO, Harper, Baker on EMI. Thanks to Vuk's recommendation of this one on the old forum I bought it. If you're new to Mahler this is propably a good starting point.

3rd Symphony: Barbirolli, Kerstin Meyer, Halle Orchestra on BBC. A great recording from the BBC archives by a great Mahlarian.

6th Symphony: Bernstein, New York PO on Sony. Lenny has a very special emotional way to conduct Mahler's Symphonies. This recording is a good example for that.

9th Symphony: Walter, Vienna PO on Dutton. A recording from the 1930s. Not only for historical reasons very interesting.

Das Lied von der Erde: Klemperer, Wunderlich, Ludwig, Philh.Orch. on EMI. Just perfect.

Kindertotenlieder, Ruckertlieder, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen: Barbirolli, Baker, Halle Orchestra, New PO

I'm still searching for a great recording of the 8th Symphony. I've got the Solti, Chicago SO on Decca. But I'm not completely satisfied with the record. Any recommendations anybody?

By the way a very good comparison of Mahler recordings can be found here.

Posted on: 17 October 2000 by Former member

The latest recording by Rattle/BPO has completely changed my view of the 'performing version' of the tenth. Most people know the first movement, which is often performed separately, but the whole piece is fantastically spare and dark toned and IMO a much more satisfying experience than the seventh. The final movement is right up there as one of the great Mahler movements of all time. I urge everyone to give Rattle's version a try - its a bit difficult to reproduce and only my Naim kit does it justice (out of three other systems in the house.)

Cheers,

Kevin

Posted on: 17 October 2000 by Former member

quote:
I'm still searching for a great recording of the 8th Symphony. I've got the Solti, Chicago SO on Decca. But I'm not completely satisfied with the record. Any recommendations anybody?

Unlike most people, I don't really care for the Solti, and I've got it on vinyl and CD. Igor is not sure about the Abaddo (DG) version (though he suspects also that he may not like the work so much), but I am. Alongside the Tennstedt (EMI), it is my favourite.

Vuk.

Posted on: 17 October 2000 by Phil Barry

Yeah, I was unhappy with the BPO's choice, too. I was really hoping they'd pick Barenboim.

There's a live Mitropoulos/8th that I've heard on radio, and it is SUPER, though the sound is dated.

Glad to see the Horenstein 1st was mentioned. It's really great bombast. As to how many one should own, how many do you want? I'd stay away from Haitink (I own the CD) and Chailly, based on my experience at 3 very dull Chailly-directed concerts.

The best comment on the 1st (heard after a performance of the 1st by the Philadelphia in Ann Arbor): 'Beethoven would have said it in 15 minutes!'

How about the 4th? Szell, Horenstein, and I heard a great CSO performance with Sylvia McNair.

(signed) A Chicago Symphony subscriber

Posted on: 18 October 2000 by Todd A

Since this thread has expanded to include all of Mahler's symphonies, I might as well bring up the 9th symphony. IMO, this is his finest effort. The Adagio is among the finest pieces of music written in all of human history. This work is one of the few long works (60 minutes+) where I completely lose track of time. (Bruckner's 8th is another.)

With that in mind, I have Zander's incredible version on Telarc, and Boulez's more analytical, less emotional and, alas, less interesting interpretation on DG. I know that I should get that '38 Walter recording, but any other profoundly good renditions to consider above all others?

Posted on: 18 October 2000 by Former member

Zander and Walter (make sure you get the Dutton Labs remaster, not EMI) are my favourites, though sometimes I'm in the mood for Klemperer's reading, which is is rather more metaphysical and strangely lyrical. People say good things about the Karajan, but I've yet to hear it (though I believe there is a copy among a stack of LPs that I scored recently).

Boulez does have the uncanny ability to drain all emotion and purpose out of anything he conducts. I'd call it a truly nihilistic approach.

Vuk.

Posted on: 18 October 2000 by Former member

I like both Karajan's recordings of the Mahler 9, particularly the live one. The Walter recording is superb. I am also very fond of Sinopoli's 9 (though the rest of his cycle is hit and miss). Giulini's Chicago recording is also a favourite, and is highly underrated - largely because the previous CD transfer was so obviously bad that it was unlistenable; the new version in the "Originals" series restores this to acceptable sound.

Ross

Posted on: 18 October 2000 by Former member

Ross,

I agree that Karajan's 9th is a great performance,
particularly the live version (even though I'm not a great fan of Karajan's Mahler). However, Barbirolli's 9th with the Berlin Philharmonic is, I think, a great performance and much better than his 5th which is accorded 'classic' status in many quarters.

Cheers,

Kevin

Posted on: 18 October 2000 by Todd A

Vuk, generally I agree with your assessment that Boulez can drain the life from music. I've found some exceptions, though. I rather enjoy his version of Mahler's 6th of all things, though I'm hungering to get Bernstein's last version to supplant it. I've heard one other version (can't remember by whom) on the radio that was decidedly less entertaining.

Boulez's recent version on Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe is stupendous. I haven't heard any other complete versions of this work - just snippets here and there – but this one floats my boat. I may very well like other versions more, of course. At the same time, his version of Bolero leaves me cold. Go figure. I’d like to hear him conduct Carter’s Symphonia. There’s a work the man was born to conduct.

And I noticed Phil’s rather unflattering statements about Chailly. I agree completely. I’ve heard the 4th on a high-end Naim rig at my dealer, and I was still bored and unimpressed. Worse yet, I recently heard a BBC proms concert on the radio of Chailly conducting Mahler’s 1st and the only thing I can say is that the playing was sloppy. It was uncoordinated, out of sync, unconvincing, and <add critcism of your choice>. If this had been my introduction to Mahler, I probably would not have moved on to the other symphonies.

Posted on: 18 October 2000 by Former member

Chailly is a rather over-rated conductor and really does not deserve to be at the helm of the fabulous Concertgebouw. I've heard all the great orcheatras many times live at the Proms over the past 20 years (some of them on 4 or 5 separate occasions) and even next to the Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic and Chicago Symphony it's always the Concertgebouw that impresses me the most. They simply produce the richest, most homogeneous, most blended sound of all and yet are capable of producing great delicacy also. At least they do when Chailly is not up-front; then they can sound quite ordinary. Prior to that when Haitink was in charge they were quite simply always the best orchestra performing at the Proms - both in terms of sheer sound and also interpretively - IMO.

Cheers,

Kevin

Posted on: 19 October 2000 by Igor Zamberlan

Agree with Vuk about Boulez Ninth. I picked it up second-hand for the equivalent of five pounds, and found it dull almost to an unbelievable level. I sorta like Boulez in other repertoire - I like his Columbia Debussy, his Webern , his recent Bruckner Eighth is also very good, IMHO
- but his Ninth didn't give me any reason to try and sample his ongoing Mahler cycle further.

Chailly... well, his much lauded Mahler Fifth stroke me as missing all the points. I didn't find the sound so good as they say also.

As for Ninths, I have a fondness for Bernstein's 1980 or so Berliner recording, you really feel the emotion of the occasion. I also like Barbirolli - not so much as I love his Sixth, but almost.

Igor

[This message was edited by Igor Zamberlan on FRIDAY 20 October 2000 at 09:07.]

Posted on: 19 October 2000 by Former member

This is a great performance - a bit slow by most conductor's standards but you do get the added bonus of him grunting orgasmically with every one of those tense, opening chords (if that turns you on!)

Cheers,

Kevin