NAIM 3.5 VS LINN LP12

Simon - Music, the Ultimate Upgrade.

The reason I'm asking this, is because of the
fact that I read a review on www.audioreview.com
of the CD-3.5 A guy who recently bought himself a CD-3.5 already had a Linn LP12 but also wanted a
decent CD-player.
He said he had a collection of 2000 LP's but ever
since he bought the CD-3.5 (and recently a flatcap to go with it)he rarely played his vinyl
anymore. That's why I got confuesed..

I'll wait and see what other people think here.

See ya'

The LP12, even in its most basic configuration (but correctly tuned and maintained) will sound better than most CDPs. An LP12 with an Ittok arm easily eclipses the CD2 by a country mile. I have no doubt LP12/Akito will better the CD3.5. The best part of it all is that the LP12 can be upgraded to the full monty as funds permit and give you a platform that will make better music than even the venerable CDS2 for less money.

In my arbitrary view, these are the equivalent benchmarks - assuming equivalent supports and decent cartridge. Counter views, as I'm sure there are plenty, are gladly entertained

CD3.5 < CD3.5+flat < LP12/Akito < CDX < LP12/Ittok < CDX/XPS < LP12/ARO < CDS2 < LP12/Geddon/ARO < LP12/Geddon/ARO/Prefix

If you are serious about expanding your vinyl collection, you could do much worse than buy an(y) LP12. In time, you might like to consider a good vacuum record cleaning machine like a VPI or Nitty Gritty. These wonderful devices make buying used records (they are sooooooooooooo cheap) painless.

James

Resistance is Futile

[This message was edited by James Jong on MONDAY 08 January 2001 at 22:11.]

go for the LP12 without hesitation. but be careful that the LP12 is correctly set up... may be a visit to a Linn dealer if you are in doubt.

otherwise a LP12 is very musical, and if in a short A/B comparison with a CD player, you still can have some hesiations, after a whole evening lsitening to music, you will probably come to the following conclusion:
the CD3.5 makes nice digital audio signal come to your ears
the LP12 makes music!! that's it

for £570 the price is correct and you will have a very good TT.

cheers

jean-christophe

I compared my LP12/Ekos/Arkiv/Longo against my girlfriend CD3.5 with Hicap.

The LP12 outperformed the CD 3.5 in EVERY ascpect. The CD3.5 is a great player and has good PRaT. I could easily live with that player.

But the LP12 is in a higher league. Go for the LP12. If the TT is in a very good condition the price is right.

Hermann

I am the original dinosaur as far as CD goes. Just recently joined the CD brigade with a Linn Mimik which I need to swap real soon. I have had an LP12 for almost 15 years and it (along with my 52/SUPERCAP) is one of my most cherished belongings. The LP12, as someone has already stated, whips most CD players into oblivion! The closest I have heard approaching the quality of the LP12 is the CD12 (at £12k!) and the CDS-II. The nice thing about the LP12 is the upgrading that is possible. Clearly the tonearm and cartridge but there is also the Lingo or Armageddon for the power supply, Cirkus which is a must and trampoline. I'm using an Ittok with Klyde into the Prefix and the results are outstanding. Make sure that you take advantage of the oppotunity that you have and buy that LP12!

Nigel

Your Linn Lp12 will easily outperform the Naim 3.5 if properly set up and a decent cartridge is used. However before you but the Linn LP12 consider the Roksan Xerxes. I have used the Xerxes for many years with Naim amps and I find it outperforms the Linn in every area!

Go listen

NB

So, peoples's responses suggest that LP12 is much better than most CD players. Is this because most people here have invested a lot of time, effort and money in LP12 and records such that they find it hard to embrace CD's? If it is the case that LP12 for example is that much better than CD, then whay are so many people on this forum buying CD players. Surely, the type of person on this forum would only opt to go for the best possible sound? The reason I am asking this is that after the comments of this thread, I really am now confused. I have just recently bought my first naim amplifiers, 90/92. Currently, I am using an average CD player with DAC and have no records. However, my collection of music is not even 100, so I could make the change to records. But the question is, Are most bands etc still making records as well as CD's when they release their albums? I'm not sure that this is the case. Then again, I like lots of different music and would probably find a lot of records to keep me happy in 2nd hand shops - Do you think that is realistic?
If you think that LP12 is really the way to go, then how nuch would I expect to pay for a good 2nd hand one. That, however leaves the problem, How do you know what to look for to check that everything is in order.
I hope someone may be able to offer some advice on this.
Thanks inadvance,
Imran

--Eric

quote:

---

If it is the case that LP12 for example is that much better than CD, then whay are so many people on this forum buying CD players.

---

LP is yesterday's format and most people growing up in the 80s would not have had the chance to realise the musicality of the vinyl stuff. I'm yesterday's child and have owned several CD player since the mid 80s (about the same time as my LP12). I preferred the music-making abilities of my LP12 to CDPs every time. Even Naim CDPs (don't own CDS2 yet). I think you'd find most hardcore flatearthers here own TTs, even if they are not Linns.

quote:

---

Are most bands etc still making records as well as CD's when they release their albums? I'm not sure that this is the case. Then again, I like lots of different music and would probably find a lot of records to keep me happy in 2nd hand shops - Do you think that is realistic?

---

There is a lot of new dance music coming out on LPs. Fewer pop releases make the LP format, unfortunately. Some people balk at buying used records fearing that previous owner habits may indelibly damage their styli and hearing. This is clearly not the case (diamond vs vinyl = no contest), but if you are serious about collecting 2nd hand records, you'd probably need a good vacuum record cleaning machine. They are around 400 quid. Most of the LPs I now buy are in fact 2nd hand.

quote:

---

How do you know what to look for to check that everything is in order.

---

It's best to go for a later model LP12 with braced plinth, laminated arm board and glued sub-chassis (s/n 70,000+ I think). Otherwise check that the main bearing spins freely and quietly. The pointy end bit should be clean and shiny and well lubricated with black oil. The subchassis should bounce evenly with a straight up-down motion and slow decay. If an arm is fitted, check for bearing play and bearing freedom. You should not detect any rattle and if the arm is statically balanced, the slightest mass (e.g. small piece of paper or breath) should set if moving. Overall, if the deck looks clean and well maintained, chances are it is. Finally, get one that has the original boxes so that the LP12 can be transported safely.

James

Resistance is Futile

Thanks for the advice. LP may be yesterday's format, but as you say there are so many records out there to buy in 2nd hand shops, and i like dance music too, so if you can get them on record this is good. Having heard a few all naim systems (CD only) I know that the music I heard was by far the most enjoyable compared to other hifi. I wonder what will happen when I hear a LP12!!?

Imran

Which bands? It's true that many fewer new titles are available on vinyl, though it is probably more than you think.

"Then again, I like lots of different music and would probably find a lot of records to keep me happy in 2nd hand shops - Do you think that is realistic?"

Absolutely. Used vinyl is such a bargain, especially since the original issues of albums usually sound much better than the cd version. If you like classical or rock, tons of records are available at very low prices, like $1-$4 in the US. Jazz is generally a bit pricier.

"Some people balk at buying used records fearing that previous owner habits may indelibly damage their styli and hearing. This is clearly not the case (diamond vs vinyl = no contest)"

You can learn fairly quickly how to identify a record that is trashed from one that is mint. When they stopped carrying new vinyl, I was forced into used shops (early 90s) and discovered, to my chagrin, that old records (ie early pressings) were both cheaper and sounded MUCH BETTER than the reissues I bought in the 80s--a difference which more than made up for increased surface noise.

"but if you are serious about collecting 2nd hand records, you'd probably need a good vacuum record cleaning machine. They are around 400 quid. Most of the LPs I now buy are in fact 2nd hand."

This is absolutely not true. You can gain much enjoyment with a Decca or Audioquest brush and no cleaning whatsoever, and be state of the art with the Disc Doctor fluid and brushes, which are $70 total in the US--something like $.20 per disc cleaned.

--Eric

I have a CDI which, superb though it is, gets mashed by my Gyro.
Any well adjusted LP12 would achieve a similar level of performance.

You want something that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the Linn, think CDS2 - nothing else.

Rob.

quote:

---

This is absolutely not true. You can gain much enjoyment with a Decca or Audioquest brush and no cleaning whatsoever, and be state of the art with the Disc Doctor fluid and brushes, which are $70 total in the US--something like $.20 per disc cleaned.

---

At the risk of relitigating the various means of vinyl maintenance, I have to say I've tried them all and found that NOTHING beats a wet scrub and thorough vacuum. Logically, how can any other means remove the grit and crud that accumulates on other people's records? I have examined the exhausted cleaning fluid from my VPI and seen that it contains a suspension of fine grit and contaminants. Previously unplayable records have been rendered absolutely pristine. So, I'm not sure if anything I've said is "absolutely not true".

James

Resistance is Futile

This is not a case of plumping for one or other of the two media. In my case, I have about 600 LP's collected over 20 years. I have an LP 12 to play them. But most newly released material is not available on LP, and has not been for at least 10 years. So, if you're going to hear releases from, say, 1990 onward, it will have to be on CD.

I have a Naim CDI which I have had for 6 years. My LP 12 knocks the socks off it for musicality, but that doesn't stop it from being a fine player. Most of my 700 CD's are material which is not now, and often was never, available on LP.

The bottom line is that where the LP is available, I will play it, but I will happily play a CD if that's the only choice.

For a person like you, who has no sizeable collection of either CD or LP, I have to say, reluctantly, that I think you should invest as much as you can in a good CD player and then spend heavily on CD, including secondhand CD, to build a collection. In my view, the concept of building a comprehensive LP collection from scratch (ouch!) is no longer realistic and unless you can afford financially to support both media, (which is the ideal) , there is no real choice.

I have two points:

a)you do not need to vacuum clean in order to enjoy vinyl--it is superior to cd even uncleaned.

b)you do not need to vacuum clean in order to have state of the art cleaning. The consensus on the record collectors list I'm on (and these people are quite serious about hi-fi and records) is that Disc Doctor is the best. I agree. Have you tried it?

It is different than alcohol-based solutions--it is more of a soap, so it holds the dirt in suspension. Once you have rinsed it a couple of times, I bet 1/100 or the original dirt is left.

Check out www.discdoc.com

Meanwhile, a vacuum cleaner is available from www.audioadvisor.com for less than $200, and those in the UK might be able to adapt it to your voltage.

--Eric

quote:

---

you do not need to vacuum clean in order to enjoy vinyl--it is superior to cd even uncleaned.

---

No arguments here, if the LP is not riddled with crud in its grooves. I have yet to clean my entire record collection, most of which were bought new and fastidiously looked after, and they still sound better than CDs. It's quite a different story with second-hand records, however.

quote:

---

It is different than alcohol-based solutions--it is more of a soap, so it holds the dirt in suspension. Once you have rinsed it a couple of times, I bet 1/100 or the original dirt is left.

---

I use VPI RCM concentrate, which is detergent based, to which isopropyl alcohol and distilled water is added. For second-hand records, I scrub and vacuum each side for 3 cycles. I bet there is much less than 1/100th of the original dirt left after that. Somehow, the idea of rinsing records and letting them air-dry in a normally dusty environment is self-defeating.

quote:

---

Meanwhile, a vacuum cleaner is available from www.audioadvisor.com for less than $200, and those in the UK might be able to adapt it to your voltage.

---

The price I quoted was for the semi-automatic VPI 16.5 retailing in the UK. Of course they can be bought more cheaply at source. The $200 items from Audio Advisor are manual devices where you have to rotate the record by hand. The US price for the VPI 16.5 is around $425 and they also sell a 220V "International" version, which is what I bought.

It is clear that I have found my favoured way of cleaning records and you have yours. Neither is right or wrong and I was merely offering Imram options based on MY experience. Have you used a proper vacuum record cleaning machine?

James

Resistance is Futile

UK supplier, anyone?

John

--Eric

quote:

---

Looking for decent, full inner sleeves (not those horrible see-through, semi-circular jobbies).

UK supplier, anyone?

---

Try Vivante (www.vivante.co.uk) They do a decent poly lined paper sleeve in 50s, can't remember how much they cost though.

Tony.