New Years Thoughts
Posted by: Johns Naim on 06 January 2005
Afternoon All
Well, the Xmas & N/Year festivities have come and gone, and I find myself settling in to the beginning of 2005 with a number of thoughts, ideas and questions about HT floating about in my head - I'm sure there must be a lot of space in there, as they've been 'floating' for quite some time..
So I thought it timely perhaps, to sally forth to my favourite forum, and post a few ideas and questions for general discussion on the subject of HT.
So, to start off, in your opinion, what is the difference between good HT, and GREAT HT, (principally on the audio side for the purposes of this debate) AND, what role does Naim play in this?
As an introduction, I think we would all agree that a large picture (as in ecompassing our field of vision for a given seating distance from the display, such as to immerse one in the picture, and 'lose' the distraction of the room and ones immediate surroundings) and of the best quality one can afford would be a pre-requisite where possible. Note I am talking HT ideals here, not real world practicalites as regards budget/small rooms etc.
However, what about the audio side of it as regards GREAT HT audio, and the role Naim plays in it?
For me, Naim is where it's at for music reproduction as regards my choice of kit. I'm not going to say it's the best in absolute terms (albeit it is at the very least one of the very best), or that there aren't equally good/rewarding but different options available elsewhere, but coming to HiFi as a musician first, and a HiFi gearhead second, Naims ability to convey the emotional and intellectual message of music is without peer IMHO.
But what makes for great HT audio generally?
Is it the famed Naim 'flat earth' qualities of PRaT, or is it so-called 'round earth' qualities of air and space, soundstaging etc, or perhaps even a blend of both?
I know that I love/need PRaT for movies, but I also seem to need a blend of the air and space 'holographic imaging' attributes that seem to lie at the foundation of an immersive surround-sound soundfield, and are more generally attributed to 'round earth' designs, when it comes to movies.
I don't find Naims relative (to competing brands) seeming lack of 'air and space' to be at all limiting in music reproduction as I listen to the music, not the acoustic it was recorded in, but I wonder and sometimes feel it is perhaps a limiting factor in the HT performance/presentation/involvement.
So... firstly, what are your feelings/opinions about Naims HT reproduction - is the PRaT overiding of other/secondary concerns as it seems to be for most of us interested in music reproduction more than 'air and space' etc, OR is the relative lack of air and space a performance limitation, as regards an involving and immersive soundfield for movie reproduction?
Next, would you prefer two separate systems for 2 channel, and HT, if you had the funds - and if so why? (I'm mostly interested in your thoughts here on performance issues, not family reasons, or space considerations etc - this could be two separate systems in separate rooms for those lucky enough, OR two separate systems in the ONE room))
If you had to integrate the two systems in the one room i.e. one system for both HT and 2 channel duties, and if the funds didn't come into it, would your first choice be the Naim processor?, or amps?, or speakers?, (not necessarily all of those items together, but a mix perhaps, say Naim AV2 processor/Naim amps/B&W speakers for arguments sake) - and again, if so why?
I realise I am perhaps asking some difficult questions, with doubtless very subjective opinions, but as the HT forum is new to Naim, and it appears even some of the staff (no looking in Adams direction
) are new to HT as well, I thought it a good time to have a real debate about performance issues re HT, how Naim in particular works for you, other issues/performance criteria etc you may have discovered that will benefit all as you share, and we all grow along the new and interesting road of HT/AV in the home.
Please discuss...
Cheers
Regards
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
Well, the Xmas & N/Year festivities have come and gone, and I find myself settling in to the beginning of 2005 with a number of thoughts, ideas and questions about HT floating about in my head - I'm sure there must be a lot of space in there, as they've been 'floating' for quite some time..
So I thought it timely perhaps, to sally forth to my favourite forum, and post a few ideas and questions for general discussion on the subject of HT.
So, to start off, in your opinion, what is the difference between good HT, and GREAT HT, (principally on the audio side for the purposes of this debate) AND, what role does Naim play in this?
As an introduction, I think we would all agree that a large picture (as in ecompassing our field of vision for a given seating distance from the display, such as to immerse one in the picture, and 'lose' the distraction of the room and ones immediate surroundings) and of the best quality one can afford would be a pre-requisite where possible. Note I am talking HT ideals here, not real world practicalites as regards budget/small rooms etc.
However, what about the audio side of it as regards GREAT HT audio, and the role Naim plays in it?
For me, Naim is where it's at for music reproduction as regards my choice of kit. I'm not going to say it's the best in absolute terms (albeit it is at the very least one of the very best), or that there aren't equally good/rewarding but different options available elsewhere, but coming to HiFi as a musician first, and a HiFi gearhead second, Naims ability to convey the emotional and intellectual message of music is without peer IMHO.
But what makes for great HT audio generally?
Is it the famed Naim 'flat earth' qualities of PRaT, or is it so-called 'round earth' qualities of air and space, soundstaging etc, or perhaps even a blend of both?
I know that I love/need PRaT for movies, but I also seem to need a blend of the air and space 'holographic imaging' attributes that seem to lie at the foundation of an immersive surround-sound soundfield, and are more generally attributed to 'round earth' designs, when it comes to movies.
I don't find Naims relative (to competing brands) seeming lack of 'air and space' to be at all limiting in music reproduction as I listen to the music, not the acoustic it was recorded in, but I wonder and sometimes feel it is perhaps a limiting factor in the HT performance/presentation/involvement.
So... firstly, what are your feelings/opinions about Naims HT reproduction - is the PRaT overiding of other/secondary concerns as it seems to be for most of us interested in music reproduction more than 'air and space' etc, OR is the relative lack of air and space a performance limitation, as regards an involving and immersive soundfield for movie reproduction?
Next, would you prefer two separate systems for 2 channel, and HT, if you had the funds - and if so why? (I'm mostly interested in your thoughts here on performance issues, not family reasons, or space considerations etc - this could be two separate systems in separate rooms for those lucky enough, OR two separate systems in the ONE room))
If you had to integrate the two systems in the one room i.e. one system for both HT and 2 channel duties, and if the funds didn't come into it, would your first choice be the Naim processor?, or amps?, or speakers?, (not necessarily all of those items together, but a mix perhaps, say Naim AV2 processor/Naim amps/B&W speakers for arguments sake) - and again, if so why?
I realise I am perhaps asking some difficult questions, with doubtless very subjective opinions, but as the HT forum is new to Naim, and it appears even some of the staff (no looking in Adams direction
) are new to HT as well, I thought it a good time to have a real debate about performance issues re HT, how Naim in particular works for you, other issues/performance criteria etc you may have discovered that will benefit all as you share, and we all grow along the new and interesting road of HT/AV in the home.Please discuss...
Cheers
Regards
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
Alex B said:
Alex, I thought you raised some excellent points, and some very interesting observations.
The difficulty (for HT) with the back to the wall design of most of Naims loudspeakers, is the (relative to a freestanding design) limited soundstage, mostly due reflections of the back wall etc. On the other hand, this gives the most linear, articulate, clear, detailed, dynamic and texturally informative bass that is amongst the very best I've ever heard in a loudspeaker design regardless of cost - not something I'm happy about trading off for more air and space - ugh, the compromises of life..
I 'get around it' by using the DSP modes 'Digital Cinema Sound' which are proprietary to Sony, in my TA-DA9000ES to enlargen the soundfield, which is what these modes are primarily for. It's not that unlike THX post processing in that it equalises the signal via reverb and tonal shaping on a per channel basis, and opposing channels run a delayed stereo signal. This gives a truly room filling sound, and whilst there is a tradeoff re precision, and some time-smear etc, the 'drama' of the soundstage is enhanced, and the blend with my mis-matched Tannoy rears to my front SBL's becomes much less noticeable. This I feel gives 'good' HT sound.
As you say 'GREAT' HT sound requires the best speakers in the best room. One of the things that strikes me, but I've yet to hear it, is that the AV2 etc is demoed with 150/175 etc. As one goes up the Naim preamp/poweramp ladder, air and space, refinement, subtlety etc is what usually gets added to the initial mix of PRaT, so my thoughts would be that the higher end of Naims amps, in combo with an AV2, or a higher end reference series product (AV3?) should they bring one out, would go a long way to address the shortcomings, presently dealt with in my case by DSP, and give us truly GREAT HT.
Geoff said:
Very interesting. I have tried 'tweaking' my own surround speakers (2 pairs) and find that they are just as sensitive to front speakers in a 2 channel setup re placement. Toe in, or out etc, brings noticeable differences to the soundfield as one effectively alters the level of direct to reflected sound, and is well worth playing about with for the best effect.
I agree with regards to the presentational aspects of multi-channel music versus two channel, especially classical which is my main interest - albeit in some genres of music, such as choral, organ, etc, the extra ambience from the surrounds definitely gives more of a 'being there' sense of involvement such as to be almost preferable to 2 channel on those genres.
However for movie use, to remove the as Adam put it 'reasons to disbelieve' is a laudable goal, and that means the best picture and the best sound working in harmony. IMHO, as an art, movies are just as deserving of the best sound and picture, as music is of sound alone. Only my opinion of course, and oh, don't ask where the funds come from for it all....
Peter said:
A very interesting tale Peter, and thanks for sharing - I take it you're going to use the N-sats & N-sub in combo with your 52/250/SBL's? - and I assume N-cent as well?
In a way you did answer my questions Peter - I didn't intend that this be a post asking specific questions and nothing else, but rather a broad canvas of opinion as to what makes GREAT HT, and most importantly, what results people have found, and choices made, particularly with regards Naims solutions, and why.
For instance, has someone compared an AV2 with say the top meridian processor, or a Lexicon perhaps, and gone with the Naim. I, and I'm sure many others, would like to hear about this, and other assesments of what Naim brings to the HT arena that marks it out from, or even puts it above the other high-end competition, be it speakers, amps, or processors etc.
Adam said:
Adam, thanks so much for sharing - I was delighted you took the time to respond in depth, and feel I know a little more about an online friend, as I'm sure we all do.
I would very much agree that HT/film can be as rewarding as stereo/music - it's certainly very different, BUT it can be a very rewarding, involving, entertaining and satisfying experience - and well worth doing it well. Even very well, Oh, Ok, GREAT even...
IMHO, it is a mistake to shortchange the HT/movie experience with 'cheap' or, 'it'll do' equipment. Just as the sense of involvement with music is lessened with equipment that doesn't quite 'take us there' or involve us emotionally, so it is with movies. A suitably large and immersive picture, coupled with sound that brings out all the nuances and details, especially in dialogue, aids immeasurably in "removing the reasons to disbelieve" and involves you emotionally as well as intellectually in the film/story/plot etc.
Just as in reading a very good book one loses 'sight' of the paper, so a GREAT HT system should transport you 'into' the movie such that one becomes unaware of ones surroundings. That pretty much means top sound and picture IMHO, if you want GREAT HT.
As Alex points out, 'good' HT can often be achieved with a warm sounding setup, with lots of ambient soundfill etc, but GREAT should go beyond that, and take one to a much higher level of involvement again.
Being a performance orientated company, and from my own listening, I would believe that Naims solutions to the audio side of HT are orientated towards providing that extra step of GREAT HT audio, and consequently the experience in total. As such, I'm very interested to hear others opinions and experiences, hence my starting this thread, to garner opinion and debate as to Naims role/attributes in the concept of GREAT HT, be it amps, speakers, processor etc - and oh, almost forgot the sub...
A couple of weeks back, I was an attendee by invite at a 'My Sony' evening, where I saw the latest top of the line Sony 3 panel LCD projector; the picture quality was simply stunning - this would be CRT Barco from say five years ago, and certainly the equal of anything I've seen re single chip DLP. HDMI & DVI inputs featured, and even though fan cooled, it had a 24dbA rating, and was thus exceptionally quiet. The fact that it cost AUS$5000.00 was almost unbelievable value for money, as well as being thousands below an plasma, with a picture quality that was easily the equal, except bigger of course.
Things are certainly moving apace on the video side of things, and apart from a licensing/format battle to which I think you alluded, re HD-DVD v's Blueray, the next few years should see a maturing of picture technology, and at prices that mere mortals could afford, that will be simply stunning re results.
Best Regards
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
quote:
I'd say the main problem remains the soundstage, the width of the presentation. It is very hard to get the feeling of sitting in the middle of the events. But I guess, the big problem here might be the room.
Alex, I thought you raised some excellent points, and some very interesting observations.
The difficulty (for HT) with the back to the wall design of most of Naims loudspeakers, is the (relative to a freestanding design) limited soundstage, mostly due reflections of the back wall etc. On the other hand, this gives the most linear, articulate, clear, detailed, dynamic and texturally informative bass that is amongst the very best I've ever heard in a loudspeaker design regardless of cost - not something I'm happy about trading off for more air and space - ugh, the compromises of life..
I 'get around it' by using the DSP modes 'Digital Cinema Sound' which are proprietary to Sony, in my TA-DA9000ES to enlargen the soundfield, which is what these modes are primarily for. It's not that unlike THX post processing in that it equalises the signal via reverb and tonal shaping on a per channel basis, and opposing channels run a delayed stereo signal. This gives a truly room filling sound, and whilst there is a tradeoff re precision, and some time-smear etc, the 'drama' of the soundstage is enhanced, and the blend with my mis-matched Tannoy rears to my front SBL's becomes much less noticeable. This I feel gives 'good' HT sound.
As you say 'GREAT' HT sound requires the best speakers in the best room. One of the things that strikes me, but I've yet to hear it, is that the AV2 etc is demoed with 150/175 etc. As one goes up the Naim preamp/poweramp ladder, air and space, refinement, subtlety etc is what usually gets added to the initial mix of PRaT, so my thoughts would be that the higher end of Naims amps, in combo with an AV2, or a higher end reference series product (AV3?) should they bring one out, would go a long way to address the shortcomings, presently dealt with in my case by DSP, and give us truly GREAT HT.
Geoff said:
quote:
HOWEVER over time due to various room rearrangements and speaker placement experiments to get the very best I could for HiFi stereo I have had to twaek the positon and setup of the surround system. What I have noticed with this is that everytime I do some tweaking I get a different resulting sound field effect from the interaction between the room and the speakers together with time delay values and volume balance etc.
Very interesting. I have tried 'tweaking' my own surround speakers (2 pairs) and find that they are just as sensitive to front speakers in a 2 channel setup re placement. Toe in, or out etc, brings noticeable differences to the soundfield as one effectively alters the level of direct to reflected sound, and is well worth playing about with for the best effect.
I agree with regards to the presentational aspects of multi-channel music versus two channel, especially classical which is my main interest - albeit in some genres of music, such as choral, organ, etc, the extra ambience from the surrounds definitely gives more of a 'being there' sense of involvement such as to be almost preferable to 2 channel on those genres.
However for movie use, to remove the as Adam put it 'reasons to disbelieve' is a laudable goal, and that means the best picture and the best sound working in harmony. IMHO, as an art, movies are just as deserving of the best sound and picture, as music is of sound alone. Only my opinion of course, and oh, don't ask where the funds come from for it all....
Peter said:
quote:
Summary - I'm going for nsats/sub/av2/175 and either DVD5 or the arcam using my exiting 52 which I've had modded for unity gain. I suspect i shall go for the DVD5 if only to get the new remote that seems to do everything! The video can wait as a small screen does not bother me too much.
Not sure this ramble answers any of your questions though John.
A very interesting tale Peter, and thanks for sharing - I take it you're going to use the N-sats & N-sub in combo with your 52/250/SBL's? - and I assume N-cent as well?
In a way you did answer my questions Peter - I didn't intend that this be a post asking specific questions and nothing else, but rather a broad canvas of opinion as to what makes GREAT HT, and most importantly, what results people have found, and choices made, particularly with regards Naims solutions, and why.
For instance, has someone compared an AV2 with say the top meridian processor, or a Lexicon perhaps, and gone with the Naim. I, and I'm sure many others, would like to hear about this, and other assesments of what Naim brings to the HT arena that marks it out from, or even puts it above the other high-end competition, be it speakers, amps, or processors etc.
Adam said:
quote:
If I could just raise the necessary to bring the visuals (and preferably distancing me further from a likely licence battle) up to anywhere near the quality of the sound I think the endeavour may prove as life-enhancing as my stereo has proved over 30 years. I recently bought 10 DVDs – and am pleased that they do not feel like a waste of money.
I am concerned that cheap projectors will throw some of this away – perhaps lcd will become ubiquitous and prices slowly move to merely punitive.
Adam, thanks so much for sharing - I was delighted you took the time to respond in depth, and feel I know a little more about an online friend, as I'm sure we all do.
I would very much agree that HT/film can be as rewarding as stereo/music - it's certainly very different, BUT it can be a very rewarding, involving, entertaining and satisfying experience - and well worth doing it well. Even very well, Oh, Ok, GREAT even...
IMHO, it is a mistake to shortchange the HT/movie experience with 'cheap' or, 'it'll do' equipment. Just as the sense of involvement with music is lessened with equipment that doesn't quite 'take us there' or involve us emotionally, so it is with movies. A suitably large and immersive picture, coupled with sound that brings out all the nuances and details, especially in dialogue, aids immeasurably in "removing the reasons to disbelieve" and involves you emotionally as well as intellectually in the film/story/plot etc.
Just as in reading a very good book one loses 'sight' of the paper, so a GREAT HT system should transport you 'into' the movie such that one becomes unaware of ones surroundings. That pretty much means top sound and picture IMHO, if you want GREAT HT.
As Alex points out, 'good' HT can often be achieved with a warm sounding setup, with lots of ambient soundfill etc, but GREAT should go beyond that, and take one to a much higher level of involvement again.
Being a performance orientated company, and from my own listening, I would believe that Naims solutions to the audio side of HT are orientated towards providing that extra step of GREAT HT audio, and consequently the experience in total. As such, I'm very interested to hear others opinions and experiences, hence my starting this thread, to garner opinion and debate as to Naims role/attributes in the concept of GREAT HT, be it amps, speakers, processor etc - and oh, almost forgot the sub...
A couple of weeks back, I was an attendee by invite at a 'My Sony' evening, where I saw the latest top of the line Sony 3 panel LCD projector; the picture quality was simply stunning - this would be CRT Barco from say five years ago, and certainly the equal of anything I've seen re single chip DLP. HDMI & DVI inputs featured, and even though fan cooled, it had a 24dbA rating, and was thus exceptionally quiet. The fact that it cost AUS$5000.00 was almost unbelievable value for money, as well as being thousands below an plasma, with a picture quality that was easily the equal, except bigger of course.
Things are certainly moving apace on the video side of things, and apart from a licensing/format battle to which I think you alluded, re HD-DVD v's Blueray, the next few years should see a maturing of picture technology, and at prices that mere mortals could afford, that will be simply stunning re results.
Best Regards
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
Morning All
Upon re-reading through the posts, I have a couple of quick queries to ask:
Alex B - I found your comments re the perceived limited soundstage with your Allaes/room interface interesting, however note that you otherwise seem from previous posts etc to be very happy with them.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) you're more biased towards the AV/HT side of things than stereo.
Given the perceived soundstage limitations of the Allaes, or the Allaes/room interface in your situation, what made you choose them, over say for arguments sake, a B&W or other freestanding design which would arguably do the soundstaging air & space thing better?
Do the Allaes have a 'redeeming' quality(s) which overides this limitation for HT soundstaging etc?, and if so what is it for you - at the end of the day, all speakers are a balance of compromises, and we end up choosing those which suit us, (tastes) or situation best.
Heh, they must be doing something very right, otherwise I daresay you wouldn't have bought them... But as you love them, I'm interested to hear the positives you find with them specifically for HT.
Also, how do you find the Access centre channel speaker you use performs with them, and what other centre speakers (if any) did you compare to? - what was it that set the Acess apart from the rest?
Hope you don't mind the 'grilling/questions' Heheh, but I'd love to hear what you think of the pluses of Naim amps/speakers/processors etc for AV/HT, as I understand from your posts you've listened to a lot of alternatives and consequently are a huge fan of Naim speakers for both HT as well as stereo. Many thanks.
Adam - I was just wondering if your PYE TV was colour, or is it still black and white?...
Heheh, seriously, just stirring..- you mention that the sound side of it is seriously good - may I ask as to what source, processor/amps/speakers etc you are using for HT, and if possible please, your reasons for choice on performance grounds... - please don't tell us it's Naim 'cos you got it cheap....
Best Regards
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
Upon re-reading through the posts, I have a couple of quick queries to ask:
Alex B - I found your comments re the perceived limited soundstage with your Allaes/room interface interesting, however note that you otherwise seem from previous posts etc to be very happy with them.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong
) you're more biased towards the AV/HT side of things than stereo.Given the perceived soundstage limitations of the Allaes, or the Allaes/room interface in your situation, what made you choose them, over say for arguments sake, a B&W or other freestanding design which would arguably do the soundstaging air & space thing better?
Do the Allaes have a 'redeeming' quality(s) which overides this limitation for HT soundstaging etc?, and if so what is it for you - at the end of the day, all speakers are a balance of compromises, and we end up choosing those which suit us, (tastes) or situation best.
Heh, they must be doing something very right, otherwise I daresay you wouldn't have bought them...
But as you love them, I'm interested to hear the positives you find with them specifically for HT. Also, how do you find the Access centre channel speaker you use performs with them, and what other centre speakers (if any) did you compare to? - what was it that set the Acess apart from the rest?
Hope you don't mind the 'grilling/questions' Heheh, but I'd love to hear what you think of the pluses of Naim amps/speakers/processors etc for AV/HT, as I understand from your posts you've listened to a lot of alternatives and consequently are a huge fan of Naim speakers for both HT as well as stereo. Many thanks.
Adam - I was just wondering if your PYE TV was colour, or is it still black and white?...
Heheh, seriously, just stirring..- you mention that the sound side of it is seriously good - may I ask as to what source, processor/amps/speakers etc you are using for HT, and if possible please, your reasons for choice on performance grounds... - please don't tell us it's Naim 'cos you got it cheap....
Best Regards
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
Peter said:
Yes, your proposed system will sort the sound side out of it, absolutely.
In my experience of using a DVD player/movies, and utilizing the analogue outputs and hence doing downmixing from 5.1 to 2 channel prologic compatible stereo in the DVD player, and thence on to the likes of a Naim 2 channel system for stereo, the sound tends to be awfully compressed, and one encounters level differences, and dialogue difficulties etc. If the DVD has a 2.0 channel stereo mix on it, this usually gives the preferable result, but either method is not a patch on running an digital coax out from the player, to a decent decoder to give proper 5.1 DD, or DTS surround sound on the grounds of clarity, dynamics etc, let alone the benefit of the extra surround channels.
Hope this helps
Cheers
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)
quote:
This is my view exactly. Over the weekend we watched the extended LOTR3 using my present naim system and 28'' widescreen tele - not a very good experience. The sound on two channels only was awful - even with the sound option on the DVD's set to stereo!. (The sound kept drifting away and speech was sometimes difficult to understand). My proposed system of DVD5/arcam + av2 and nsats/centre etc will sort the sound side I'm sure. Whether i shall be happy with the small picture side remains to be seen - but that is part two of my HT acquisition scheme.
Yes, your proposed system will sort the sound side out of it, absolutely.
In my experience of using a DVD player/movies, and utilizing the analogue outputs and hence doing downmixing from 5.1 to 2 channel prologic compatible stereo in the DVD player, and thence on to the likes of a Naim 2 channel system for stereo, the sound tends to be awfully compressed, and one encounters level differences, and dialogue difficulties etc. If the DVD has a 2.0 channel stereo mix on it, this usually gives the preferable result, but either method is not a patch on running an digital coax out from the player, to a decent decoder to give proper 5.1 DD, or DTS surround sound on the grounds of clarity, dynamics etc, let alone the benefit of the extra surround channels.
Hope this helps
Cheers
John...
This is my last upgrade.... after this my system will be finished...:-)